2/23 Morgaine AMPS 75 Spoke to Vet

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skybar22

skybar22

Member Since 2010
Morgaine just attacked me! She pee'd on the floor on the rubber mat and I cleaned it up. She was all wet and covered in pee so I went over to wipe her up and she got very aggressive, growled and slashed my hand with her claws. I have about 6 wounds. I can not keep doing this with her and am a a total loss for what to do. I have been up checking BG as her numbers were not safe enough for me to go to bed. Nothing very low but an 85 at +4 so I fed her and was going to check her in an hour when she pee'd on the floor. I threw a towel over her head to calm her down but i am afraid of my own cat now. i am afraid to go near her. I have never seen her do things like this. she pees and sits in it. i can't let her walk around like this so i need to clean her but she goes crazy! I have been calm about it all but this is beyond my ability to handle.
 
Re: NEED ADVICE ASAP

I'll try to PM Beth (and Atlas), she knows a lot about animal behavior. Maybe the throwing of the towel scared her?
I knew a 25? year old cat that was deaf and attacked a dog because the dog surprised him.
Also, maybe it's time to talk to an animal communicator. I've never done that, but I've heard good things about them.
I wish you the best of luck today, and know that I will be thinking about you and Morgaine.
 
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I threw the towel over her head after she attacked me to get her to stop. She just went ballistic when I tried to clean her up with a warm wash cloth. I have an appt. next Thu with the animal communicator. She was booked until then. This situation is way beyond my ability to manage. I have not slept well in days, have my own health problems and these wounds frighten me as I have a propensity to get infections with my own type 1 diabetes. My hand is covered in wounds right now. I am just so at the end of my coping ability.
 
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I believe you just put her on Prozac. That can be a side-effect of Prozac. I would suggest you call the vet.
 
Re: NEED ADVICE ASAP

This may be a side effect of the Prozac. Aggression is listed as a side effect in cats.

When Morgaine was at the vet, was she tested for hyperthyroid? That can also cause aggressive behavior.
 
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Sienne and Gabby said:
This may be a side effect of the Prozac. Aggression is listed as a side effect in cats.

When Morgaine was at the vet, was she tested for hyperthyroid? That can also cause aggressive behavior.
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Her thyroid was checked and is perfectly fine.

I do remember that aggression can be a side effect of prozac. I am so at a loss as to what to do and I will call the vet as soon as they open. I am just overwhelmed with it all and the peeing is such a major problem as well. She is sitting in the kitchen on her bowls against a wall and is not herself at all. I ama fraid to check her BG as she may not allow me near her. She was 85 an hour and a half ago and she ate about an ounce of 10%. But she has been dropping later in the cycle.
 
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Maybe Prozac isn't the way to go for her, did you try the bach flower remedy or pheromones, I know of a lot of people that have had a lot of success using pheromones for all sorts of kitty behavioural issues.
 
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Vyktors Mum said:
Maybe Prozac isn't the way to go for her, did you try the bach flower remedy or pheromones, I know of a lot of people that have had a lot of success using pheromones for all sorts of kitty behavioural issues.
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She is getting the flower remedies and I am using Feliway, both the spray and the plug ins. I have tried everything. prozac was my last resort. I am in disbelief that this is happening right now. She is a mess and covered in urine. It is an awful situation. The day before yesterday, first day back on the prozac, she was using the LB and doing so well.
 
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Oh (((Rosalie)))! You are trying so hard. If she just had some 10% food, do you think she would be OK if you just left her alone for a while, maybe until the vet's office opened? Maybe if you can have some time away from her, even just shut in your bedroom, where you can tend your own wounds, physical and emotional, the next step might become clearer. Sending much love to you and Morgaine.
 
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Linda, I don't know if she is okay BG wise. I am going to try to test her but she is not finishing her food, another oddity since she always eats everything in her bowl. She ate an ounce of 10%. This is getting very scarey.
 
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I just stopped in and say the ping to the thread.

Most behavior medications take 4-6 weeks to build up in the system. Aggression manifesting this soon after medication starts is not good. A call to the vet is needed.

The behavior
She is sitting in the kitchen on her bowls against a wall and is not herself at all.
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indicates she is totally confused and freaked out.

Rosalie, if the prozac is compounding a chemical imbalance, Morgaine is going to feed off your stress and fears right now. You need to just drop her down some food for the low numbers you are concerned about, do not try to test her right now etc. Just put the food down and available for her.

Second, if you have not done so already...take care of those cat wounds. You can get very sick from them if they are not cleaned up right away. If they are really deep you may need to use peroxide and let it bubble up before bandaging. Puncture wounds should be left open to bleed out some to help remove infection.

Give Morgaine some room to breath. I wonder if she has ever been 'surprised' at the litter box or while doing her business? This might explain why she does her business on the floor. Also the chemical imbalance in her brain that you are diligently trying to treat may be the cause as well.

Right now though, Morgaine is not speaking cat. Her behavior sounds to be frightened and unpredictable. A definate call to the vet is needed.
 
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((((Rosalie))))
I am so sorry that this is happening with Morgaine. You should almost certainly discontinue the Prozac, since that seems to be the main culprit. Also, it might be best simply to leave her alone for a while. Put out some yummy MC/HC foods and don't test. She will eat if she is hungry. Your state of mind is surely affecting her behavior. Can you get out for a few hours for yourself? I'm sure your kitty will be OK. Maybe the animal communicator will be able to take you this week if you explain the emergency.

Thinking of you and sending calming vines to Morgaine.

Ella & Rusty
 
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I agree with Ella,

Morgaine is likely fine number wise. Remember stress sends numbers up.

If she is stressed...she won't eat until she feels safe and secure.
 
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Thanks Beth. I am letting her be. I have food down for her and I have tended to my wounds with peroxide and neosporin ointment after washing them with soap and water. They are not too deep and no puncture wounds. Thank you for that advice.

I do not believe she has ever been frightened while in her LB. She and I are the only ones here and she has a private place where her box is kept.

I am so perplexed by it all.

Thank you and I am not going to disturb her for now. I will put out a little HC just in case and just let her be.

We have had a very rough time of it these past few weeks with her not using her box and then my confining her because I couldn't keep cleaning up after her. the vet said to confine her to an area where she couldn't get to the rug so we created that space. She does seem lost and confused and not at all like herself. this has been going on for a while. Even when she was off the prozac for several days, she was not herself.
 
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If you want to continue with the medication route, there are other drugs that are not SSRIs that can be used (e.g., Buspar, clomipramine, amytriptyline, and Valium) for inappropriate urination. This article describes them.
 
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It is a little after 6 AM here and I can't leave. I no longer drive and am pretty much homebound. I can just let her be and go lie down and try to get some sleep. I think I just heard her eating and I will give her a little more food.

I will call the vet as soon as they open.

I do think the prozac has made her aggressive but the peeing all over the place is still a amjor issue that i just can not tolerate in a small 1 bedroom apartment. I often wonder if there isn't something going on in her brain. I was just reading about feline "Alzheimer's" and 13 is a common age for that to onset.
 
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Just as the prozac needs to build up in her system, it may take more than a few days to clear out of her system.

I am sorry you are going through all this. Your vet may recommend a different medication? But you may need to wait a week or two to start it for the prozac to clear her system. It is hard to say. I am assuming there were indications beyond the urination outside the box that led you and your vet to start using prozac.

A cat with a chemical imbalance is very frightening. Sometimes treatment works and sometimes it doesn't.
 
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Wow! I wish I could add something here as far as advice but I don't have direct experience with aggressive cats. Sounds like you are getting great advice from the other people who have commented.

Please take care of yourself and call your own Doctor as well. Your Doctor may want to put you on a round of antibiotics as a preventative measure.

You come first and you know your limits.

Hope the situation gets better real soon.
 
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Beth, Morgaine was thoroughly checked out and had no medical issues that caused her to stop using the box. That IS why she was put on prozac. She strated peeing on my bed and then it progressed to the rug in both my bedroom and the living room. she just stopped using her LB completely. What other options are there for this problem, besides meds and retraining? I can not manage to clean the rugs constantly due to my own limitations. The vet also said that Morgaine's behavior a week ago indicated that she probably would benefit from the prozac. I confined her to the kitchen with her LB. I had to go to the dentist and when i came home she had not pee'd for over 14 hours. She was sitting in there with a wet belly and some urine had leaked out but she held onto it. i finally let her out of the kitchen and just wanted her to pee. She went into the LR and let go of a huge amount of urine. The vet seemed to think this indicated a behavioral issue that would benefit from the prozac. she was on it for a few days at that point but because of loose stools we stopped the prozac and added pumpkin to her meals and once her stools returned to normal I was to start the prozac at a lower dose. I did that starting monday night and this is where we are 3 days later.
 
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Thinking of you Rosalie. What a horrible thing for you and for Morgaine. I hope the vet is able to answer some questions for you. We never had any negative issues with the prozac, but ECID. However, if Morgaine does have some type of chemical imbalance in the brain, it may have aggravated it. Hugs to you!!!
 
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You sound like you are at the end of your rope. I'm sending big hugs your way. I would do buprenorphine for pain for a week also if you haven't tried this yet. Hang in there.
 
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Just sending hugs. This is such a scary situation for you. Leave her alone in the kitchen to calm down and you go back to bed to rest yourself.
 
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A couple questions:

Does she have a specific spot she pee's in in the living room and are you willing to place a litter box there? Same for the area in the hallway?

These are temporary locations. We may need to go so far as to put foil on the floor so she has a carpet runway to the boxes. We would want to fill them with cat attract litter. Leave the boxes there for a week and then as she starts using them, slowly move them 2-3ft. a week towards your desired location.

What kind of litter box are you using? Style, size, dimensions.

Have you cleaned, really cleaned using a professional grade cleaner for cat urine? A superficial cleaning won't do it. I like Cat Odor Out from Thornell Labs. Jackson Galaxy from Animal Planet recommends Fizzion. The trick is all of the urine must be gone or destroyed.

An example is the rubber mat in the hallway. If the carpet under it was not cleaned, the rubber mat is just trapping the odor. Did you know:

A domestic cat can smell with roughly 200 million smell-sensitive receptors (humans have 5 million). A domestic dog can range from as low, in comparison, as 125 million to as high as 220 million depending on the breed.

Read more: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_has_a_bet ... z1nDNhzt1i

This means cats actually have a better sense of smell than most domestic dogs who are not scenthounds!


I have to step out and take care of a few dogs and won't be back until about 2pm EST. I will catch-up with this thread at that time to see your answers and what the vet said.
 
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Hi again, Rosalie,
In light of Beth's comments on completely getting rid of the urine smell, I wonder if it would be possible for you to board Morgaine at the vet's for a couple of days and have your whole apartment professionally cleaned to get out all trace of urine smell (using the cleaning products she recommends). Then start over without the apparent "trigger" of old urine. Put your apartment back to the way it was before all of these problems started and maybe she will revert to her former self.

Just a thought.

Ella
 
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I have a little client cat that I have to deal with from time to time. She is hyperthyroid and potentially aggressive.

Her aggressiveness set in when she was about 8 YO according to the owner. She literally swings from curious play to sudden displays of aggression. The owner never had anything checked out at that time, so who knows what happened, but it appears as a chemical imbalance. I call her my senile little diva.

Aggression comes from many factors. Sometimes seeing another cat outside a window, pain, brain issues, fear, surprise, territorial issues.... If Morgaine has been throughly checked medically then it leaves just two roads to go. Mood altering drugs and/or training.

I admire your dedication to Morgaine and finding her the correct treatment regime.
 
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(((((rosalie))))) i'm running out the door to work but wanted to send you a hug. this is a terrible situation and i'm sending you all the positive, calming energy i can muster. for the moment i agree - leave food down and leave her alone. step away and take care of yourself. hugs . . .
 
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I just got up from a nap and Morgaine is resting in the kitchen. she seems okay right now.

There are major limitations for me, including costs, that would prohibit me from doing a professional cleaning of my apartment right now. I have tried so many different cleaners and have settled on one called Anti Icky Poo. I also got a black light flashlight and it doesn't show any urine stains in the LR where my rug has been thoroughly cleaned. I will see what we can do with the hallway when my cleaning help arrives later today. My problem is, as always, transportation.

Does she have a specific spot she pee's in in the living room and are you willing to place a litter box there? Same for the area in the hallway?
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No specific spot. She pees everywhere except she usually skips anywhere where she already pee'd before. I immediately clean the spots with the Anti Icky Poo and i think it repels her.

These are temporary locations. We may need to go so far as to put foil on the floor so she has a carpet runway to the boxes. We would want to fill them with cat attract litter. Leave the boxes there for a week and then as she starts using them, slowly move them 2-3ft. a week towards your desired location.
Click to expand...

I have tried this, without the foil but have used the cat attract litter and she is no longer interested in that. It worked for a short while. My living room is not very large so putting a foil runway down wouldn't be feasible for me. I am not steady pn my feet due to major issues and I can't have stuff all over the floor to trip on. Foil was used in the hallway for a while but she ended up walking on it and sitting on it.
What kind of litter box are you using? Style, size, dimensions.
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I have two. One has high sides and a low entrance. Morgaine is a very big cat and she can easily get into both boxes without jumping in. she does have neuropathy in her hind paws and we are thinking that is one of the problems. Both boxes are super large and she can walk in and turn around with room to spare. Her original box is about 5 inches high. I watched her go in and out the other day when she was using it without a problem.

Have you cleaned, really cleaned using a professional grade cleaner for cat urine? A superficial cleaning won't do it. I like Cat Odor Out from Thornell Labs. Jackson Galaxy from Animal Planet recommends Fizzion. The trick is all of the urine must be gone or destroyed.
Click to expand...
I have just become aware of Fizzion and can order it but i have tried several different ones as mentioned above and have them here. I have spent a small fortune on cleaners at this point.
 
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Hi guys .. no answers or advice from me .. Just wanted to say you have my sympathies for going through this .. I really hope the animal communicator is able to give you answers .. I feel so bad for you guys ..
 
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I have called the vet. She will be in shortly and will call me back. I have 2 vets who have been dealing with this. Morgaine's vet is not in today but the vet who originally prescribed the prozac is and she is the one I will be dealing with today. They are both informed about Morgaine.
 
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We have a friend who has a cat veterinary practice in Madison WI. We sure wish she lived here in AZ! Her vet school thesis consisted of testing various common household products to see if any were effective in removing cat urine smell. There were two, but we can only remember one and it was the plain green regular Scope mouthwash. To clean carpet with it, you soak up urine (if fresh) or wet the carpet first with water, then soak that up with and put down Scope, let it sit for a few minutes, then soak the Scope up. It is very inexpensive too.

We have paws crossed the vet has some good ideas for you and sending you both lots of love from the mountains.
 
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I immediately clean the spots with the Anti Icky Poo and i think it repels her.
Click to expand...

I wonder if you could just spray the whole carpet? also, I've uses Fizzion and it is very good.
 
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I honestly do not know if any of these cleaners actually get the odor out for a cat to not smell it. I can't just up and move and i can't rip out rugs since I rent this apartment. They would never rip out the rugs. they were newly installed 3 years ago when I moved in. All the floors were brand new.
 
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Rosalie, I am so sorry about all this. I am on the road and posting quickly at the moment. Could you ask your vet about possible sterile cystitis and treating the symptoms of that? One primary approach would be pain control such as buprenorphine, as I think karrie mentioned.

Please keep an eye on your own wounds and see your doctor if you see inflammation or redness spreading.

Hugs to you and morgaine. My Bear Man was incontinent and I know how terribly stressful it is.
 
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skybar22 said:
No specific spot. She pees everywhere except she usually skips anywhere where she already pee'd before
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Thank you for taking the time to answer all my silly questions! But...I was looking for some key information which I highlighted. I am sure you know this, but cats who associate pain with urination will behave this way. It hurts to pee in the litterbox, it hurts to pee over there, it hurts to pee over here, it hurts to pee on the bed. ....so let me try over there. This has been going on for sometime and retraining is likely needed as well as medical treatment.

There is one therapy that may improve interstitial cystitis in cats. While not yet proven effective, early studies are encouraging. This therapy involves supplementing cats with a product containing glycosaminoglycans, an important component of the normal protective lining of the bladder. The theory is that cats with interstitial cystitis have a disrupted glycosaminoglycans layer in the bladder. Without this protective layer, the bladder wall is subject to damage done by contact with urine, which can be highly irritating. Cats receiving glycosaminoglycans supplements may suffer fewer, less severe episodes of cystitis. This supplement is available in a capsule that can be opened and sprinkled on the food. Most cats will eat this supplement when added to food. http://www.uvma.org/cats/urinary-problems.htm

The product is Cosequin, now finally available at most larger pet stores. Ask you vet about it! I know my vet recommended it for my Tilei (GA) and it worked!

You mentioned using a blacklight to look for cat urine. If you are not seeing it, then it is likely the products you have are doing their job. The only concern would be the carpet pad, but if you soaked the area as the product instructs I'd be surprised if it was ineffective.
 
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OMG Rosalie, how horrible!! I hope your vet is able to consult with you today and help you figure something out. Sending hugs and vines your way. :YMHUG:
 
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Morgaine was on Cosequine for quite some time and then I stopped it as she was on so many other supplements but I will start it again. The peeing all over did start while she was on Cosequin and I was giving her 2 tablets a day. Then we went to every other day. I am not sure that is her problem. I see her weakness in her hind legs and she often walks on her hocks. She is in pain fromthe neuropathy. Her paws are always quivering from the nerve damage. She is on Zobaline as well, 2 3 mg tablets a day.

Her AMPS BG was 75 and that is after all the extra food she got last night. I cut her dose back down to 4.25 for now as I do not want to be poking her all day. I fed her a mix of LC/HC food this AM and shot.
 
Re: 2/23 Morgaine AMPS 75

The vet called back and she is going to put her on Bupe for a week and then on Gabepentin once the prozac is out of her system. We may have to skip her insulin dose tonight if she is really out of it. I will see how she does. I am going to be injecting this every 3 days for 6 days so only 2 shots.
 
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I know very little about this, but I have heard that Adequan can also help if the problem is being caused by urinary pain. My business partner was having urinary issues with one of her cats a few months back, and this is just something she mentioned she found in her research. It's not something I personally have looked into, but it could be worth investigating for Morgaine. You need a script for it, but Drs Foster and Smith has it at a great price.
 
I do not think she has pain in her bladder. She is not peeing often at all. she pees normally, 3-4 times a day. I believe it is her hind paws and the neuropathy.
 
Re: 2/23 Morgaine AMPS 75

skybar22 said:
The vet called back and she is going to put her on Bupe for a week and then on Gabepentin once the prozac is out of her system. We may have to skip her insulin dose tonight if she is really out of it. I will see how she does. I am going to be injecting this every 3 days for 6 days so only 2 shots.
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You are going to be giving the Bupe once every 3 days? Or the Gabapentin? I think that is an unusual dosing schedule for either medication. If you feel that her pain is due to neuropathy, the Gabapentin may be a good choice. In any case, I think that you are aware that you may see sedation as a side effect from both of these drugs.

A good way to tell if a cat is in pain is to give a pain relief medication, and see if there is any improvement in the cat's demeanour. If so, you can assume that the cat was in pain. If you see that starting the pain medication improves the situation, I hope that the vet will be open to allowing you to continue with it.

I hope that you do see a positive change.
 
I am giving her Bupe, slow release so 1 injection every 3 days for a total of 2 injections. Then, we will start the gabepentin daily. That will be coming from the compounding pharmacy. The vet consulted with a pain specialist who suggested this dosing. Marje and Mike brought us the bupe and Marje injected for me since it is a little tricky and my RA has impacted my hands so severely. So once again I must tell you all how fantastic these two people are. Thanks again to Marje and Mike for the generous love and kindness they project out to this world. Rare indeed are these folks and I am so fortunate to have them nearby.

Morgaine allowed Marje to inject her with little reaction. She has mellowed out a great deal and hopefully she will be in less pain. All I can do is try different meds to see if something helps my girl. The pain specialist feels the gabepentin is the right med for her neuropathy but inappropriate until the prozac is out of her system. The bupe is for the week that this is happening. I know nothing about pain meds for cats but Marje thinks very highly of the pain specialist whom she has used for her kitties. Another big thanks to Marje! These vets consultwith one another regularly. I know we are in good hands.

Up until the diabetes, Morgaine has been in good health so all of this is so foreign to me. Of course I am familiar with human diabetes but cats are so different and of course, ECID! I will keep you all posted. So far she is just resting but when the postman came to the door she was as alert as ever.
 
skybar22 said:
I am giving her Bupe, slow release so 1 injection every 3 days for a total of 2 injections. Then, we will start the gabepentin daily. That will be coming from the compounding pharmacy. The vet consulted with a pain specialist who suggested this dosing. Marje and Mike brought us the bupe and Marje injected for me since it is a little tricky and my RA has impacted my hands so severely. So once again I must tell you all how fantastic these two people are. Thanks again to Marje and Mike for the generous love and kindness they project out to this world. Rare indeed are these folks and I am so fortunate to have them nearby.

Morgaine allowed Marje to inject her with little reaction. She has mellowed out a great deal and hopefully she will be in less pain. All I can do is try different meds to see if something helps my girl. The pain specialist feels the gabepentin is the right med for her neuropathy but inappropriate until the prozac is out of her system. The bupe is for the week that this is happening. I know nothing about pain meds for cats but Marje thinks very highly of the pain specialist whom she has used for her kitties. Another big thanks to Marje! These vets consultwith one another regularly. I know we are in good hands.

Up until the diabetes, Morgaine has been in good health so all of this is so foreign to me. Of course I am familiar with human diabetes but cats are so different and of course, ECID! I will keep you all posted. So far she is just resting but when the postman came to the door she was as alert as ever.
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OK, I have it now. Thanks for clarifying. It sounds like a very good plan. I am so happy that Marje and Mike are helping you out.
 
A little update: Morgaine pee'd in the hall and got herself wet again. I let her come into the LR for some fresh air and she is now giving herself a decent bath. I have not seen her do this in days so apparently she knows how much she smells!!! :smile:
 
Spent a good 20 minutes cleaning her paws, tail and belly area. While she was sitting there bathing herself by the patio door, a neighbor's cat came by. I got the cat to leave but now i am wondering if this isn't part of the peeing problem.
 
what a time! i have no experience with any of this but just want you to know i care and am sorry things are so difficult. sounds like you've got a great plan for the next few days. great news that morgaine is cleaning, though! i hope the bupe/gabapentin will give her some relief.
 
I'm really glad to hear you are giving bupe a try. I am hoping this makes all the difference for Morgaine. I really feel vets put too much into behaviour issues with a cat. I think a lot of it is pain. Also Adequan for chronic cysticis. Beth have you read about this? Its becoming a more and more common treatment - not just for arthritis. Is it known as something else in the US?

Sending more hugs.
 
skybar22 said:
I am giving her Bupe, slow release so 1 injection every 3 days for a total of 2 injections. Then, we will start the gabepentin daily. That will be coming from the compounding pharmacy. The vet consulted with a pain specialist who suggested this dosing. Marje and Mike brought us the bupe and Marje injected for me since it is a little tricky and my RA has impacted my hands so severely. So once again I must tell you all how fantastic these two people are. Thanks again to Marje and Mike for the generous love and kindness they project out to this world. Rare indeed are these folks and I am so fortunate to have them nearby.

Morgaine allowed Marje to inject her with little reaction. She has mellowed out a great deal and hopefully she will be in less pain. All I can do is try different meds to see if something helps my girl. The pain specialist feels the gabepentin is the right med for her neuropathy but inappropriate until the prozac is out of her system. The bupe is for the week that this is happening. I know nothing about pain meds for cats but Marje thinks very highly of the pain specialist whom she has used for her kitties. Another big thanks to Marje! These vets consultwith one another regularly. I know we are in good hands.

Up until the diabetes, Morgaine has been in good health so all of this is so foreign to me. Of course I am familiar with human diabetes but cats are so different and of course, ECID! I will keep you all posted. So far she is just resting but when the postman came to the door she was as alert as ever.
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Good news about the grooming; that's always a very good sign.

I wanted to comment on the gabapentin is to have your vet CONFIRM that the compounding has nothing in the way of a sweetener.... my first batch of gabapentin for my cats was in a syrup that turned out to be NOT sugar free. I have found that the gabapentin has helped my two cats a great deal and better for Oliver because any buprenex has made him like a drunken sailor, even on the smallest of doses.

For the neuropathy, I wonder if B12 shots would be more helpful; maybe ask your vet about it?
 
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