2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153;+7=140;+11=263

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Kathleen and Fred

Kathleen and Fred

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Need help on amount to shoot. Felt like keeping it at .8 based on yesterday, but may want to go to 1.0.
Feeding now and will need to shoot soon.

Thanks

Finally made the decision for .8 based on bouncing recent history.
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u)

I hate that no one is up when you are. I think you did good to hold it, I would have. Hopefully it will be just fine.
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u)

That was a good choice, Kathleen. Today will tell you if Fred needs a little more at that 300 range or if it is just right. :mrgreen: If you can get a number in that 5-7 range.
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u)

I think Fred may have bounced a little so I don't think a 330 is bad at all. And I think .8 was a good choice. One week a month I work from 6am till 2, but that's probably the only week I'd be awake to look for early morning questions.:-)
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u)

I am watching with interest to see if Fred might settle down a bit on that 0.8u. :-D
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153

OK...so tell me what this number means? Trying to learn this curve/nadir/bounce vocabulary so I won't have to depend on [or panic] all of you. But so glad you're there!! Ya' think my vet would stay up wit me all night????? :lol:

So, he's doing OK. Got his treat with the +5 (per Sue's (?) suggestion). Bad storms have sent him under the bed, but no signs of any other stress or discomfort.

Where do we go from here?
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153

Kathleen and Fred said:
OK...so tell me what this number means?
Click to expand...

My two cents: it looks like Fred came off that 330 very nicely with the 0.8u. He might go a bit lower by +6 or +7. He might even have a green nadir for you? This is very good data to have. Nice shooting this AM! :-D
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153

Thanks for watching. Will try to test at +7.

Your Bunni looks so much like my dear Lucy-Fur, who died just last week - which might have started much of this stress! What a sweet face :smile:
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153;+7=140

Got his +7 test (140) and reward snack. Talking his afternoon stroll around the house before heading back upstairs for his well-deserved nap!...CATS!
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153;+7=140

Very nice. Now the question is whether he will continue to drop or when he will start back up.

If he starts back up and is above 160 or so at pre shot, I would try the .8 again, if you can monitor. If he bounces up to 300+, you might try one unit as he would have had enough room to go lower today for that type of pre shot.

If he continues down and is still dropping by pre shot, then I would be more conservative. I wouldn't shoot unless he is past +12 and rising and then maybe .5 on the 160-180 if you can monitor.

I am thinking ahead as we are leaving for the weekend. I will have my phone but it is harder to response with and I usually can't see spreadsheets. Carl and Jenn will hopefully help with doses also.

You are doing great, Kathleen. I am astounded that he is responding so well after so long on insulin. I am sad, though, that if your vet had encouraged testing more often in the beginning and given you more guidance, he might have been in remission long ago……….
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153;+7=140

Sue and Oliver (GA) said:
Very nice. Now the question is whether he will continue to drop or when he will start back up.

If he starts back up and is above 160 or so at pre shot, I would try the .8 again, if you can monitor. If he bounces up to 300+, you might try one unit as he would have had enough room to go lower today for that type of pre shot.

If he continues down and is still dropping by pre shot, then I would be more conservative. I wouldn't shoot unless he is past +12 and rising and then maybe .5 on the 160-180 if you can monitor.

I am thinking ahead as we are leaving for the weekend. I will have my phone but it is harder to response with and I usually can't see spreadsheets. Carl and Jenn will hopefully help with doses also.

You are doing great, Kathleen. I am astounded that he is responding so well after so long on insulin. I am sad, though, that if your vet had encouraged testing more often in the beginning and given you more guidance, he might have been in remission long ago……….
Click to expand...

I agree with the dose suggested by Sue. I like maybe trying 1u when you have a pre-shot of 300 plus to see if you can bring his nadir just a little bit lower. I think the 0.8 might work nicely on pre-shots in the 200 range, and maybe a hair lower if you're under 200. I agree with Sue that you'd want to be cautious if he's in that 150 range at PM pre-shot time and maybe do what we call stalling...don't feed and test again in 20-30 minutes to see if he's rising and then proceed based on that number.

Fred is looking great! He's really not needing much insulin at all to get into good numbers. :smile:

What time is your PMPS? Eastern time zone?
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153;+7=140

just so I understand...
if he's at 160-180 for PMPS, I should just shoot .5?
If he's under 160 (or dropping from the +7 140), I should NOT give any shot?
Won't that send later evening numbers too high or will his food help?

At his age I'd be surprised if could ever be OTJ, but isn't that a lovely dream!
 
Re: 2/21 Fred AMPS=330 (.8u);+5=153;+7=140

Kathleen and Fred said:
just so I understand...
if he's at 160-180 for PMPS, I should just shoot .5?
If he's under 160 (or dropping from the +7 140), I should NOT give any shot?
Won't that send later evening numbers too high or will his food help?

At his age I'd be surprised if could ever be OTJ, but isn't that a lovely dream!
Click to expand...

I like the 0.5 for a pre-shot between 160 - 180. You may, just as a measure of caution, want get test at AM +11 so you know that your pre-shot number is rising.
If he's under 160 or dropping, rather than skipping the shot entirely, I'd suggest stalling...wait 20 - 30 minutes without feeding and retest and see what your number is. This stalling, re-testing process can be repeated as many times as you want. If you look at Eddie (my kitty's) spreadsheet on the PM cycle of 2/19, you can see how that looks on a spreadsheet. I stalled till I got to a number I was comfortable shooting. :smile: Stalling can throw your schedule out of whack a bit, but ProZinc doesn't have to be given precisely on a 12-hour schedule, so you can generally get back on track by shooting the next cycle when you have a number high enough to shoot, even if it's less than 12 hours after your last shot. There are some other "tricks" if your schedule is off and you need to get back on, but let's see what he does. :smile:

Does that make sense?

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Fred was able to go OTJ! :-D
 
Went ahead and tested at +11. 263. Disappointed because I had hoped it wouldn't go that high. I guess we can say that his numbers are going up. So, I'll test in one hour. However, I don't expect the number to be much different. (Didn't give a treat with this test.) So, would you suggest another .8 dose of ProZinc? I'm still not sure I understand how to gauge the amount. I think I'm looking at each reading rather than the trend the numbers are taking.

I need to sit down, maybe tomorrow, and look at the whole chart to see the things all of you see. Maybe then I can get a handle on doses.

Thanks
 
Thanks for getting that +11. We don't need to worry about whether he's going to be too low to shoot this PM at least. :smile: If he's above 300, my suggestion would be 1u to see if you can ease his mid-point (nadir) down just a little bit lower than what you got during the AM cycle today. If he's still in the 200's at PMPS, I think 0.8 would give us some nice data to see if the 0.8 will work for him in that range.

I will be on around your PMPS. Go ahead and post, and we'll see what Fred's got planned. :smile: Right now, we're kind of feeling Fred out a bit to see how he does with a given dose depending on his pre-shot. Now it's kind of tweaking things to really help get him the most bang for his buck. :smile:
 
Hmmm...Of course he'd fall right on the line, wouldn't he? :smile:

0.8u is a little bit more conservative, and 1.0u is a little bit more aggressive. Can you monitor tonight?
 
I will Abe able to monitor +3 and possibly +5. I'm pretty tired. Maybe I should do .08 in case I fall asleep. ( Really tired from lack of sleep since Lucy-Fur died 2/12 and this crisis with Fred.)

But if you 1.0 would serve him better, I'll give it my best.
 
Kathleen and Fred said:
I will Abe able to monitor +3 and possibly +5. I'm pretty tired. Maybe I should do .08 in case I fall asleep. ( Really tired from lack of sleep since Lucy-Fur died 2/12 and this crisis with Fred.)

But if you 1.0 would serve him better, I'll give it my best.
Click to expand...

There's definitely nothing wrong with shooting a little more conservatively if you need to rest. :smile: It's not going to make a huge difference whether you shoot 0.8 or 1.0u for just once cycle. Either way, it will be good data to have to help put together a sliding scale for Fred. I'd suggest the 0.8u. :smile:
 
Looking forward to your post!

Also, if you want to see what stalling is all about if your pre-shot is a little low, I'm doing it with Eddie right now...
 
Could you explain Eddie's chart? What does it mean the "143" over +12? and What is Delta%? My chart doesn't have that.
I assume you are "stalling" by recording he 143, but waiting for a while to re-test before giving shot.
Also, how long do you wait when stalling before testing again?
Just to be clear, you are waiting to see whether his numbers will go up or down before shooting? Right? And you are doing this because of the numbers he
posted just today - or over the last few days?

I'll keep watching. Thanks
 
I usually do "stalling" in increments of about half an hour. I'd like to see him above about 160 or maybe 170 before I shoot. For newbies or "new beans" as they are referred to here, the usual no shoot cut off line is 200. Caretakers can gradually reduce that cut off line as data is collected to show that it is safe to shoot and that the kitty isn't going to drop too low shooting on a lower number. ProZinc is different than some of the other types of insulin where you can and do shoot much lower.

The 143 was Eddie's reading at 12 hours after his AM shot, which is normally shot time. I don't want to shoot on a number that low, so I wait half an hour, test again, and see where he's at. At +12.5 (half an hour later), he was at 136. Some people designate this a little differently on their spreadsheets, but for tests that occur on the half hour or even on the quarter hour, you can just make little notation like 12.5, or 12.25.

Eddie for some reason has a bit longer duration on his shots at times, so I don't want too much overlap between the two so that the last shot is still at work when the next one starts kicking in. Some overlap is OK, but it's something you've got to be fairly careful about doing. If you end up with too much overlap, it's like shooting twice the dose which can send the blood glucose too low.

The "delta" column is one I added just for my nerdy self to see what kind of percentage drop Eddie getting for a given dose :-D It turned out to not be all that helpful, so I may just end up deleting that column.
 
Fred's +3=279
oops...forgot to update his chart - will do that now.

Guess I could have been a bit more aggressive at the PM shoot. Oh well...

By the way, my schedule with him begins on a half hour (6:30am). Should I note that on my chart? From the notes I read, if all my tests & shoots are also on the half hour, I don't need to make a notation. It's only when they overlap the hour that I need to be careful??
 
Kathleen and Fred said:
Fred's +3=279
oops...forgot to update his chart - will do that now.
Click to expand...

The 279 for +3 looks just fine. :smile: ProZinc typically has it's onset between 2 to 3 hours after the shot. So it's probably just starting to kick in. Fred's supper probably also raised his glucose levels up after your pre-shot reading. So by the time the insulin kicks in, the BG is actually higher than the pre-shot number. So if you factor in those two things, that +3 is right on the money. :smile: I sometimes purposely get a +2 or +3 on Eddie so I can see how much he's continuing to rise after I shoot.

Kathleen and Fred said:
By the way, my schedule with him begins on a half hour (6:30am). Should I note that on my chart? From the notes I read, if all my tests & shoots are also on the half hour, I don't need to make a notation. It's only when they overlap the hour that I need to be careful??
Click to expand...

It's not really necessary to note the actual time on Fred's SS, unless it's helpful for you. I know when I stall with Eddie's shot, I will write the time in the comments section just so I can remember what time the shot actually happened. :smile: You are correct that if all your shots and tests are on the half hour, there's no need to note it in the SS. Let's say for instance that you happen to get a test at 5 1/2 hours after his shot. You may want to note that in your SS as (+5.5). There are some occasions where noting in half hour increments is probably a good idea - for example, if you're stalling like I did with Eddie tonight, or if you're testing every half hour due to low numbers.
 
That all makes sense. Thanks.

I won't be able to test as often when the work week begins again. Hope that won't keep us from working on Fred's progress.
I notice you test Eddie quite often. Does he object to having his ears stuck so often! I use the thinnest sticks, but he still flinches sometimes.
 
It's definitely not a requirement to test as frequently as I do. :smile: Aside from your pre-shots, generally, if you can get a test or two around nadir (the lowest point in the cycle), that's usually enough to give us a pretty good idea how well a particular dose is working. Additional tests just give us more info. The consistent blue cycles Eddie's been having the last couple days are actually pretty unusual for him. He's usually pretty unpredictable LOL! That's part of the reason I test as frequently as I do. I like to have the data. :smile:

He doesn't seem to mind the poking really at all. I really couldn't ask for a better patient. cat_pet_icon He lays in my lap while I do the test and purrs. :smile: He is highly motivated by the freeze dried chicken treats he gets after each test. If I'm having to test every half hour, like tonight when I was stalling, he does get a little annoyed at having to hold still for 30 seconds. Usually he comes running when I click the lid on his testing supply box.
 
Fred +5 # is 199.

Guess that means he's heading down again...but will be up by morning. I see what you mean about ProZinc taking a while longer to kick in. Maybe that's a good thing.

Let me know where you get the freeze dried chicken. I have just been dividing up his allotted meals to include the snacks at test/shoot time. But he might enjoy something fun.

Thanks
 
Looks like a decent +5.

We use PureBites freeze dried chicken. They're 100% protein. I think most pet store chains (PetSmart, PetCo, etc.) carry them. The ones that are sold as "for dogs" are the exact same thing as the chicken Purebites for cats but they come in a bigger bag, and it's cheaper on a per ounce basis.

Here's a link to a list of other low/no carb treat options:

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9172
 
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