2/16-Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83,+4/103,+6/154,+10.5/98

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Cini Mini's Mom

Member Since 2011
Yesterday's condo here: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=63747

Yesterday's BGs:

AMPS - 398, gave .10 units Lantus (9th cycle)
+4 - 370
+8 - 233
+10.5 - 191
PMPS - 139, gave .10 units Lantus (10th cycle)
+2 - 258
+3 - 347

This morning's AMPS was 382 and this was Cini's 11th cycle on .10 units of Lantus. His +3 was 422.

I'm wondering if I should up the Lantus dose to a fat .10? It just doesn't seem like he's coming down enough. :?
 
Re: 2/16 - Cini Mini - AMPS 382,+3/422 - Should I up the dos

You could probably go up to .25u. But I would wait for others to concur (or not :smile: )

It's very hard to measure these teeny doses and I'm having issues keeping Jesse's dose consistent - so I don't know if the swings are just due to my dosing inconsistency :?
 
Re: 2/16 - Cini Mini - AMPS 382,+3/422 - Should I up the dos

Thanks Carolyn. I always appreciate everyone's input.

I just don't understand why he's higher at night vs during the day. :? And how much of his higher numbers may be influenced by Cini's Feline Asthma.
 
Re: 2/16 - Cini Mini - AMPS 382,+3/422 - Should I up the dos

I think it is time to increase Cini's dose......if Cini were mine, i would increase to 0.25. These are some pretty ugly numbers for such a handsome guy. How is Cini acting? Appetite good?

Sherry
 
Re: 2/16 - Cini Mini - AMPS 382,+3/422 - Should I up the dos

kinda looks like today might be a bounce from yesterday's blue numbers. i probably would increase it - the lowest he's gotten on this dose recently is a 95. but you also might wait to see what you get when this bounce clears. you don't want to go up too much - we know cini mini's awfully sensitive.

edited to add - might be best to wait for that bounce to clear first. it would be best to see what CM's doing post-bounce before making that decision.
 
Re: 2/16 - Cini Mini - AMPS 382,+3/422 - Should I up the dos

I agree with Julie -- it's best to wait for a bounce to clear before increasing. Some kitties like to clear the bounce with a vengeance and you don't want to put Cini over a good dose.
 
Re: 2/16 - Cini Mini - AMPS 382,+3/422 - Should I up the dos

I don't understand why Cini would be bouncing again after the 95, especially since the blue numbers he had yesterday aren't that remarkably low?

And why would his PMPS numbers be so much lower than his AMPS numbers? Is Cini bouncing every day?

I'm just really frustrated and want things to move along faster than I guess they really can. I just feel like I should be doing something like adjusting asthma medications or increasing the insulin.

I hate these reds and pinks! :evil:
 
Re: 2/16 - Cini Mini - AMPS 382,+3/422 - Should I up the dos

Oh and as far as how he's acting ... he seems to be doing ok. Not as playful and active as he is when he's in the greens and blues, but I guess I can't blame him for feeling a little cruddy right now.

Drinking and using the litter box OK. Although, I have noticed that he's not eating as much overnight. I set the auto-feeder for 2am and 5am, the 2am bin is empty and the 5am bin is still full when I get up at 6am.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-AMPS 382,+3/422,+6.5/301,+9/216 -Dose Ad

Cathy

Before I read Sienne's and Julie's comments and was just looking at his SS, I thought the same thing as those two astute ladies.....looks like a bounce. I know it seems like he's had so much green in the past that he wouldn't bounce from blue but it just doesn't always work that way. While my suspicion is that you are going to need to raise his dose at some time, I'd be sure he's not bouncing before you do it. He does look like, overall, he's going to need a bit more juice.

Hoping he clears soon so you can raise.

Hang in there...you are a great bean keeping a close eye on him. Hoping his numbers will also come back down.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-AMPS 382,+3/422,+6.5/301,+9/216 -Dose Ad

It's not unusual for PM numbers to be lower. In some cases, the higher AM numbers can be a result of dawn phenomenon. Many cats (and people) experience an increase in cortisol secretion in the early hours of the morning. Cortisol is a naturally occurring steroid and like all steroids, can raise BG levels. The increase that results is the body's way of preparing itself for the stress of the day.

it looks like Cini's numbers are coming down. If PMPS is yellow or below, it should be fine to increase.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-AMPS 382,+3/422,+6.5/301,+9/216 -Dose Ad

I put a call in to my Vet earlier and she just called me back to say she's been researching alternate non-steroidal treatments for Cini Mini because she would like to see him get off the Flovent so that his feline diabetes can get regulated again. (We're on a weekly "touch base" now because she's concerned about his feline asthma and feline diabetes.)

She told me about a drug that is used in dogs for dermatitis called Atopica. It's recently been approved in cats for skin disorders but has also been used to treat feline asthma.

She said she's going to call the specialists at the animal referral clinic and talk to them some more about it. It comes in a liquid already and she's going to call Pfizer (I'm pretty sure she said that's who makes it) and check that it's sugar free.

I told her how on edge about his BG readings I was and she said to give it one more day. She's not a fan of adjusting insulin at night because she would rather it be during a time when the owner is alert and monitoring.

She's also concerned about the not eating at night like he used to. She's wondering if that's influencing the night time higher BGs too because he's not eating frequent small meals at night any longer. During the day, especially at the beginning of the cycle I am putting him in front of the food every 2 hours. At night, the food wrangler is sleeping ;-)

Sienne, I didn't get to read your post in time to ask her about Dawn phenomenon although she did mention Simogy (spelling?) effect.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-AMPS 382,+3/422,+6.5/301,+9/216 -Dose Ad

Cathy....a lot of vets see what we call bouncing and they want to canal it Somogyi. However, Sienne has done a lot of research and it is not documented in scientific literature that Somogyi exists and definitely not in cats. Somogyi is a chro nic rebound from too much insulin. Because the numbers are high, the person increases the dose which continues the chronic rebound. I' ll see if I can find my condo with the research Sienne did. I believe I have it bookmarked. Cini does not have Somogyi.

Brb
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-AMPS 382,+3/422,+6.5/301,+9/216 -Dose Ad

Thank Marjorie. I'd appreciate the link when you find it.

The Vet wasn't making a statement of "This is Symogi you're seeing." she was just wondering if it was that. I did try to explain to her bouncing and that it could take up to 72 hrs to clear and that's why she said to give till tomorrow morning to see what Cini's BG is.

The Vet seemed more focused in on the fact he wasn't eating at night any longer and the possible connection to high BGs because of that.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101 - D'oh!

Found it!


by Sienne and Gabby

The topic of Somogyi came up some time before you joined the Board. Both Jill and I did a lot of lit searching. I have access to both a medical and veterinary library system. For a theory that has so many people convinced that it is a factor in human as well as in feline diabetes, there is an amazingly small amount of research on the topic. The earliest paper by Michael Somogyi, is from the 1930s and was not published in a widely recognized medical journal (i.e., it was in the Weekly Bulletin of the St. Louis Medical Society). Note that this was a report based on 5 human subjects and urine glucose, not blood glucose was measured. More recent reports note that Somogyi's observations have not been reliably reproduced under controlled conditions.

Gale, EA., et al., Lancet, 1980, pp 279-282, In search of the Somogyi effect wrote:
Although some patients had a very rapid fluctuation from hypoglycaemia to hyperglycaemia, we found no evidence that changes in counterregulatory hormone levels were responsible.The preceding interval of hypoglycemia was often prolonged, which implied defective homeostasis, and the difference between the patients with apparent rebound and those without could not be explained in terms of circulating levels of cortisol, growth hormone, or glucagon. Other workers have noted very variable changes in growth-hormone and cortisol levels after acute hypoglycsemia in unstable diabetics. We did not measure catecholamines and cannot rule out the possibility that they were partly responsible for the difference between our groups. However, the evidence presented here suggests that free insulin is the major factor involved.

In addition to the dearth of empirical research, there is even less that pertains to cats and none that addresses Somogyi phenomenon in the use of Lantus. Given that the presence of Somogyi is believed to be associated with doses that are raised in too large of an increment, it is surprising that this IM vet would not be an enthusiastic supporter of the Queensland/Rand tight regulation protocol. (FYI - there is another TR protocol and the vet may have assumed this was the one you were referring to.)

This is a link to info on Chronic Somogyi Rebound on Wiki. I would draw your attention to the section on Controversy:
Although this theory is well known among clinicians and individuals with diabetes, there is little scientific evidence to support it. Clinical studies indicate that a high fasting glucose in the morning is more likely because the insulin given on the previous evening fails to last long enough.[5] Recent studies using continuous glucose monitoring show that a high glucose in the morning is not preceded by a low glucose during the night.[6] Furthermore, many individuals with hypoglycemic episodes during the night fail to wake due to a failure of release of epinephrine during nocturnal hypoglycemia.[7] Thus, Somogyi's theory is not assured and may be refuted.

This information pertains to humans, not cats. However, the phenomenon was based on humans and extrapolated to felines so I'm going to presume the issues with the paucity as well as quality of the research are the same.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47 - WHAT !?!

+2.5 is 47 !?!

OK, was I complaining Cini was too high? I take that back! Go up! Go up!!

ohmygod_smile
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83-Test again at +3.

Fed Cini some 2% which brought him up to 83 @ +3

Should I test again at +3.5 or wait till +4 ?
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83-Test again at +3.

Depends on when he normally onsets. If he has onset based on his normal pattern and you didnt give him a lot of gravy, I'd wait an hour.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83

LOL Julie, yeah. As much as he gives me anxiety sometimes I guess I like the little guy. cat_pet_icon

His +4 was 103

When do you think I should check him again?
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83,+4/103

i'm looking at his spreadsheet and honestly, i can't tell when his evening nadir usually is. the general answer is that you want to keep testing until you see 2 rising numbers AND he's past his nadir.

do you think he's past that? i know he often has an early nadir, but i also see on 1/31 he was lower at +4 than +2.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83,+4/103

Yeah, I don't know either.
With this feline asthma going on and the meds, his numbers are just all screwed up.

I'm thinking his nadir has been moving to closer to between +4 to +6. Maybe even later in the cycle if you look at his daytime info.
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83,+4/103

did you give hc with the +3 or +4? if so, i'd be more cautious than if you didn't.

i might set an alarm and get up in another hour to check. i suspect he's ok but would want to err on the side of safety.

i'm about to pass out falling asleep. are you ok if i sign off?
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83,+4/103

I gave him 2% carb at the +2.5 reading and h hasn't eaten anything since then. I just now tried to give him some 0% carb and he tried to cover it up. I woke him up, so he just wanted to go back to his bed and sleep.

I'm ok by myself. I think I'll set the clock for another hour and a half (which will be +6) and take a reading then. I'm taking tomorrow off form work so sleep will be high on my agenda @-)

Thanks for being there Julie!
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83,+4/103

if he's done all that rise on his own, i think you're ok leaving him. even a 2% is nothing.

you're welcome - it's nice to have someone else to chat with in the night, even if you know what you're doing.

sleep well! :YMHUG:
 
Re: 2/16 -Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83,+4/103

Wow Cini you were reading your condo and you really didn't want that dosecrease did you :mrgreen:
 
Re: 2/16-Cini Mini-PMPS 101,+2.5/47,+3/83,+4/103,+6/154,+10.

:-D

Yes! In fact I am thinking I should give him a skinny .10 this morning.
 
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