12/8 Zeke - AMPS 165;+6.25=496;PMPS=324;+4.75=121 QUESTIONS

[MrZ]

Hello LL - sending healing vines to all.

Zeke had quite a day yesterday. From an AMPS of 377 to a PM+2.75 of 44 (and another 44 at +5.75). He had me working really hard last night. He'd just earned a reduction (last night was only the 3rd cycle on the reducie). I've made him work hard to earn a reduction (going with the more aggressive "wait until 3 drops below 50") so I guess last night was his payback to me. I took the reduction despite my hesitation that perhaps last night included the impact of a cleared bounce and perhaps also the remnants of the previous higher dose of a shaved 2u. However, since I had to work so hard to get and keep his numbers up, I went with the guidance in this post Reductions and took the reduction (as opposed to sticking with the wait for 3 drops approach). I would have shot through the bounce but unfortunately he wasn't high enough at shot time to (to me) warrant it. Of course, the bounce still came later in the AM cycle.

Here are my feeding questions:

1) Typically, I give Zeke a treat after testing, usually freeze-dried turkey. However, should treats be withheld during the two hour window that you're waiting to see rising numbers (so that you know it's safe to go to bed)? In other words, does giving treats equate to "feeding"?

2) Is there any guidance on feeding to prevent huge drops? Would you give MC or HC early in the cycle if you "anticipate" a huge drop in the cycle? We'd like to minimize Zeke's bounces so are wondering if this contributor (huge drops) can somehow be prevented with food manipulation. I don't believe this would be prudent as you can't really predict what the kitty is gonna do but this is a question my DH had. He's concerned about the effect of bounces on Zeke's body/system/wellbeing. Would appreciate the benefit of advice from as many experienced CGs as possible on this topic as my DH and I have a very different opinion on this.

Thanks,

Laura

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Re: 12/8 Zeke - AMPS 165;+6.25=496;PMPS=324;+4.75=121 QUESTI

Hi Laura - quite the night last night! :shock: :shock: Probably a good thing you took the reduction of he was that hard to keep up. You can always take him back up if you need to.

Here are my thoughts on your questions. First, you have to know how carb sensitive Zeke is. I believe Jill's Alex gets a carb boost from freeze dried chicken, but she's a bit unusually carb sensitive. So the answer is ECID - I bet you knew that was coming. :lol: It depends what you use for treats and how the cat reacts to it. Have you tried testing during a surf to see how Zeke reacts to a treat? I always treat after a test, no matter when it is as it doesn't seem to affect Neko. Some of her best surfs have been with a bit of freeze dried salmon. I think that typically you can feed what is supposed to be zero carb for test treats during that time you are waiting for numbers to rise.

I haven't seen how you can anticipate a big drop. Neko never passed me a note saying "watch out on this cycle". :lol: Although if a bounce was breaking going into a new cycle, I could sometimes guess correctly. What I have seen people do is test often enough early in a cycle to notice a big drop starting, and then put on the brakes with extra carbs. Part of it is getting an idea when onset is for Zeke so knowing when to start those tests. For Neko, her Lantus onset was a little later, between +2 and +3, so a +1 test wasn't worth doing unless she had a lowish PS and a bounce was breaking. And I have given HC early in a cycle if the drop was more than expected. It may not prevent the bounce from going low (which might happen later in the cycle) but could ease any bounce resulting from a steep drop.

 

[MrZ]

Re: 12/8 Zeke - AMPS 165;+6.25=496;PMPS=324;+4.75=121 QUESTI

Thanks Wendy. I greatly appreciate your thoughts. Zeke is not as carb sensitive as he was earlier on. I don't believe the freeze-dried treats has much impact. That's good to know as it would be very helpful to be able to give him a treat when I'm having to test often.

So how much of a drop might trigger a bounce in the next cycle? 100 in an hour? It's not as if all kitties are as bouncy as Zeke, so I'm guessing the answer is ECID, right?

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

Re: 12/8 Zeke - AMPS 165;+6.25=496;PMPS=324;+4.75=121 QUESTI

Mine isn't carb sensitive either. I gave the freeze dried treats any time during the cycle too.

What I see when I look at your ss is that Zeke responds to green bgs with a bounce. I also see that the green numbers are starting to go longer....
He's not just dipping his toe in the green and spiking. He's staying in the green for a few hours now.
And the pink is just a "knee jerk" response.
I see that as progress.
It's just part of the process and eventually he might stop spiking to pink.... and only go to yellow. It's a matter of time.
I don't see the spikes as hurting him, they are just part of the data as you learn his individual pattern.
That bounce to red was because he stayed in green so long and went to a low green.


The steering with food helps when you see that +2 drop (or +1) after the ps number.
I don't see a lot of that in zeke's ss. I think that may be because of trying to get 3 reduction numbers instead of 1.
That's a more aggressive method of reduction and the protocol is already aggressive.
I don't see Zeke needing that ( not yet).

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Re: 12/8 Zeke - AMPS 165;+6.25=496;PMPS=324;+4.75=121 QUESTI

i would always give a treat after testing - just to reward Zeke and to make life easier the next time. if you find that the treats affect his BGs, give less, or give something else. i boiled plain chicken breasts, diced them 1/2" - so really tiny - froze most of it and kept a couple of days worth in the fridge. treats should be very small quantities. i'd almost think if you're seeing them affect BGs you might be giving more than is needed.

one option that some people do to help with bouncing is to divide up the day's food and feed it all at ps, +1, +2 and maybe +3. in some cats it seems to help to spread the carbs out in the first couple of hours of the cycle. punkin wasn't a diver, so i never did it. but if you're looking for another thing to try, you could add it to your "toolbox."

people who are tinkering with food schedules will put an asterisk in the box on the ss where they've given food. that helps figure out later whether or not it's helping.

eta - with the food, initially people try just using the regular LC. moving to MC would be a later try if this didn't help. re your DH's concern about bouncing. my understanding is the highs from a bounce (caused by liver action) are not as damaging as highs from untreated diabetes where they don't have enough insulin. i suppose it's different chemicals? in any case, zeke is looking pretty good. his bounces are clearing very quickly and he is settling in nicely. i don't think you have anything significant to worry about. he is making progress, even if you are still seeing some high numbers.

 

[MrZ]

Re: 12/8 Zeke - AMPS 165;+6.25=496;PMPS=324;+4.75=121 QUESTI

Thanks Julie and Rhiannon for your posts. Yours comments are very reassuring. I'm just hoping I can help Zeke not bounce so much.