12/29 Milo PMPS 168 +3 90 +4 73 +5 66 +6 75

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Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50

I would feed a little LC to see if Milo can surf here or rise just a little. Test again in 30 mins. If he goes below 50, you get a reduction, but you would definitely need to feed again and keep testing every 30 mins.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50

He gobbled it up. Now he is bathing. I am not as nervous as yesterday but still a little scared.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50

Hi Angela,
Looks like you're doing well, and so is Milo!

I think what you're seeing is due to a couple of things. One is the diet change. Dropping the dry food has had a very positive effect. And while you just reduced the dose from 2.0 to 1.5u, you might still be seeing a little bit of residual effect from the higher dose and the depot.

Just do what Anne suggested. Feed LC, test in 30 minutes, and going forward will depend on what sort of numbers you see.

Do you have medium or high carb canned food available in case Milo needs a quick boost? Just post the numbers as you get them, take a couple deep breaths as needed, and people will be here to help if you need any help.

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50

It's only been 10 minutes since he ate but he is at 46 now. I am started to freak out
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50

Angela,
If it's only been 10 minutes, the food hasn't hit the meter yet. That's the hardest part, waiting to see the results of the food. This is still okay, but the next feeding might need to be higher carb. Gravy from HC food is helpful, because it won't fill him up, but it will raise the numbers. Since it's only +3, you don't want to stuff his tummy in case he decides to surf in the 50s for a while.

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50

I think I'd open the grilled, and mix it with a spoonful of LC, or just give him a teaspoon of the grilled. And test again in 20 minutes or so.

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50

Oh, and update your subject line on the first post in the condo so other people see Milo's in the 40s? Never hurts to have more eyes. :smile:

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +46

You are doing great. Cats are ok in the 40s but we'd rather see them surf in the 50s, just to have a safety margin.
Liz
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +46

Every half hour until you get two rising numbers. We also consider how close he is to the nadir too. Later in the cycle, the insulin should be wearing off so there is less chance of dropping. When you give HC, the numbers can wobble when the HC wears off.
Liz

ETA: I would recommend keeping good notes about what and how much he ate and what time you tested. Then the next time, you can decide if this strategy worked well or you want to do something different. We keep a little notebook in the counter and write down everything in there.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +46

Yes, every 30 minutes. What did you feed after the 46?

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +46

Ok I wrote everything down :smile:


after the 46 I gave him the FF grilled(chicken) mixed with Wellness(turkey)
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +46

OK, great!

The 50/46/52..... they're basically the same number given that the meters aren't "exact", so this would be "surfing". If he stays in the 50-60-70 range for a while, that's a great thing. It can be stressful, but it's still a good thing. :smile:

And keeping a log like Liz suggested is a fantastic idea. It gives you something to look back on to see what works in case this sort of thing happens again.

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +46

You're very welcome, Angela. :smile:
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Half hour after +5 is 54

I think I hit the vessel that time...I've never seen that much blood from his ear before. Oops.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Numbers are still looking great! Yes, I hit the vein directly a couple of times, and it is pretty shocking how much and how fast the blood comes.

Have you been feeding at every test?

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Should i be feeding him? I haven't given him any since 1:55, the HC + LC food. I was going to feed him at 4pm(in 10 minutes).
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

No, I didn't mean you should have been feeding him. I was trying to determine what, if anything, was influencing the numbers. That you have not been feeding, yet he's remained at the same general level is a good thing to know.

Feeding him in 10 minutes is perfect.

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Oh my! Lo?! Did you double check that? I would probably add some karo to his food! And keep testing!
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

The meter said LO? You should test again, to verify. If its LO again, then you would need to give karo or honey.
Liz
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Well I gave him that food, the Wellness mixed with FF grilled and tested him again, it said 54
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Ok good. I would test every 30 mins for another hour or so just to be safe, and then, since it's getting later in the cycle, assuming he keeps surfing or starts rising, you could probably wait an hour for the next one.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Typically you want to see 2 rising numbers without feeding before you get comfortable.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

It was probably just a bad test. When I get a reading that is out of line with everything else, I will get another test to make sure. It could be a bad strip or not enough blood or the phase of the moon. :roll: :lol:

What is Milo's typical feeding schedule? We try to feed mostly in the first quarter or half of the cycle. That's when the insulin is the strongest so the carbs and the insulin sort of balance each other out. That will give flatter cycles. If you feed in the last half of the cycle, there isn't as much insulin to balance the carbs in the food. We really avoid any carbs after +10 so that the preshot test is not influenced by food.
Liz

ETA: I suggest that you get his spreadsheet up to date and ask for dosing advice from an expert. You just reduced by 0.5u but he went below 50. Milo may be one of those cats that has much lower BGs when he gets off of dry food and onto wet and the dosing may not follow the protocol.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

The "LO" was probably a glitch. Sometimes if the strip doesn't sip up enough (or even too much) of the drop, you'll get a strange number or an error message. Good idea retesting. It's a good idea every time the meter gives you a number that doesn't seem to "fit".

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

I am still working out the feeding schedule but normally I give him food at shot time, at +2 and +6. Then at night I do shot time and +2. If I am awake with him I give at +6. Should I give him food earlier than +6? I wasn't sure where to feed around the nadir.

He is eating too much right now so I need to try and cut it down a bit. He ate 2 cans of wellness yesterday.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

3 oz or 5.5 oz cans? The PS, +2 and +6 feedings are great. We use an auto feeder at night so that Zener gets something overnight. Or we leave a bowl with a plastic lid over the food that he can push off. If he doesn't eat at all overnight, he tends to barf in the morning. We give him freeze-dried chicken (no carbs) as a snack around +9 or +10 to tide him over until PS.
I bet your vet will be amazed at these numbers for Milo. :-D
Liz
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

5.5oz cans...I was afraid I wouldn't be able to get him to eat a whole can. That is not an issue obviously. On Lisa's list it has Wellness chicken at 220 calories. He is 16.8lbs right now, I don't want him to go back up to 23lbs where he was before diabetes.

Before I could leave out dry food so he ate at night but now it is more difficult. I have 2 other cats that would scarf down the food if they found it. If I go to sleep at 2am that is +4...would that be enough until his 10am shot?

I might look into an auto feeder. I would just wonder if he got it vs the other 2.

I just got him the Pure Bites chicken yesterday and he really likes them.

I am curious to see how my vet reacts. I dropped off his spreadsheet yesterday but he wasn't there.

He is at 67 now :smile:
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Milo has adjusted to the wet food diet very well! :lol: That's great. It took about a year to get Zener and civie Tillie to embrace wet food. It was a battle but so worth it. Tillie is much healthier too.

We have a baby scale to weigh them once a week. What should Milo weigh? Your vet can probably help you on that. 16 lbs is still a BIG cat.

You'll just have to see what works for you and your kitties. Maybe they all get fed in an overnight feeder? Are the other two getting wet food too?
Liz
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Well last year when he was 23lbs the vet said he wanted him down to 16lbs. The diabetes took care of that. He definitely still needs to lose weight though. He doesn't move around too well. He used to go up and down the stairs but since he got diabetes he has done it ONCE. I have kitty stairs for the couch but he usually asks to be put on the bed. Although this morning he got up there himself :shock:

Misty eats mostly wet food because she prefers it. She is also 16lbs so maybe when she stops dry food she will lose some weight. She only eats it when she is hungry and there is no wet food out.

Max is a problem. He has hemolytic anemia and often will not eat anything. So if I find something he will eat then that's what he will eat. He loves Milo's DM dry and Milo's MD dry. But once they are gone I won't get more. He doesn't care for the EVO dry. Right now he is into the Fancy Feast grilled and the Fancy Feast elegant medleys. He doesn't eat much Wellness. A lot of foods he won't eat because I tried hiding his appetite stimulant in them and he remembers. Now I hide it in butter. He loves fried chicken but is sick of boiled chicken.
His weight fluctuates. I know he is getting sick when his spine starts sticking out. When he is healthy he is 12lbs.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168; +3 50; +4 46; +5 57

Anne & Zener said:
I suggest that you get his spreadsheet up to date and ask for dosing advice from an expert. You just reduced by 0.5u but he went below 50. Milo may be one of those cats that has much lower BGs when he gets off of dry food and onto wet and the dosing may not follow the protocol.
Click to expand...

Experts..like Sienne and Marje? Anyone with advice on dosage moving forward? I just went down to 1.5 last night but it might be too much or Carl said something about the 2 units and the depot. Can dosage be reduced for a couple of days?
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

Marje or Sienne would be great. In general, we like to keep the same dose for at least 3 days because of the cumulative effect of Lantus. But sometimes there are circumstances that require a different strategy.

Does Milo have peripheral neuropathy? Is he walking on his wrists? Zener had that and we started giving him zobaline, a cat form of B12. He's all better now but we still give it to him. It takes a while to take effect, like several weeks.

Have you tried pill pockets from Greenies? The duck and pea flavor doesn't have sugar (the others do) but does have carbs. We use the dog flavor and give Zener his meds in a tiny piece. He loves them and swallows them right down. Have you tried fortiflora? You can get it from amazon. It's a probiotic powder for cats that tastes like dry food. We sprinkle some on the wet food. Zener loves it. Tillie used to hate it but now she likes it. The vet will also have it but much more expensive. You can use the amazon link at the top of the forum to raise money for FMDB and it doesn't cost you anything. :-D
Liz
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

Angela,
Can you test Milo about 30 minutes prior to shot time to see what his numbers are? Tonight's dose advice might be dependent on whether or not he chooses to give you a "bouncy" high number at shot time.

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

Two 5.5 oz cans or 440 calories of Wellness is a lot of food. Dr. Lisa's site has a formula for approximating the number of calories per day.
Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70​
If 16 lbs is considered a good weight for Milo, then he should be getting about 288 calories per day. In other words, a little more than one can of Wellness per day.

It looks like you just reduced Milo's dose last night. The 46 today is most likely the result of the depot not yet having caught up with the dose reduction. As a result, I'd suggest holding the 1.5u dose.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

Yes I will test 30 minutes before his next shot. Which is 10pm eastern.

Yes my goal is for him to eat one can of Wellness plus a little bit more. No more than a third of the second can. The two cans has only happened once so far since I just started counting on Thursday night. I opened a new can at 10am today and there is barely any left :\

I have read people talking about neuropathy but I wasn't sure about it. I just watched a you tube but it was hard to tell. I don't think he walks like that. He sort of waddles. I thought it was just his weight. Maybe I will take a video of him walking.

On Max, I tried a pill pocket for his very first Remeron and now one sniff of a pill pocket and he runs away. Max has diarrhea issues sometimes so I have a hefty supply of fortiflora. I have to mix it in the food cuz they don't like the flavor. When Max has diarrhea he always does it under wherever I sleep. I slept on the couch one night, under the couch. On my bed, under the bed. A different couch, under the couch. A sign of love perhaps? :YMSIGH:
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

Does Max like yogurt? Do you put plastic sheeting under the bed? Poor Max. I think it is love. :-D
Liz
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

If Max is relatively easy to pill, you could try Pearls. They are another probiotic and are tiny.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

I think I tried yogurt once...can't remember but knowing him he probably didn't like it. I have tried so many things with him. Various meats, scrambled eggs. My mom made this chicken and rice thing. He won't eat most of it. Sometimes I give him the canned AD food...now I am thinking it is probably terrible food like the DM.

He is somewhat easy to pill. He gets prednisolone every day but the pharmacy I get his pills from puts them into treat form. Of course he doesn't like it but I mix it in with other treats and he usually ends up eating it. I have to pill him when he is really sick cuz he won't eat any treats. He is a challenging kitty but I love him.

I will look up pearls.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

+11 was 103
+11.5 was 158

When I saw the 103 I thought, I don't want to give him any. But it went up a lot in half hour. I think that I would be more comfortable giving 1 unit. I only have about 15 days of data, half I was all over the place with the doses. And he has only been off dry food and the higher carb DM canned for 2 days. So unless the next test is lower, which I doubt, I will give 1 unit. And I will stay up with him until I am sure his numbers are going back up.

And thanks for everyone's help today :YMHUG: This thread is looong.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54

if you feel more comfortable "starting over" at 1u, then that is fine. Since you have just changed food, that might be the smartest thing to do. What I would suggest, though, is if the numbers get worse on 1u then don't wait too long to bring the dose back up. Milo's numbers today are very, very good, and I would hate to see him lose momentum.

Most of us have the luxury of having worked up to our dose in a systematic manner, so when our cats start getting lots of green numbers we know they are on a good dose. We know that because we tried all the lower doses, and they weren't enough. When you arrive on a higher dose, then change diet, it can be harder because you don't know for sure that the dose isn't too high. Starting over will fix that, so if Milo does end up needing 1.5 units at least you can have same confidence the rest of us have in our doses.
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54; dosing advice for PM

Angela and Milo said:
+11 was 103
+11.5 was 158

When I saw the 103 I thought, I don't want to give him any. But it went up a lot in half hour. I think that I would be more comfortable giving 1 unit. I only have about 15 days of data, half I was all over the place with the doses. And he has only been off dry food and the higher carb DM canned for 2 days. So unless the next test is lower, which I doubt, I will give 1 unit. And I will stay up with him until I am sure his numbers are going back up.

And thanks for everyone's help today :YMHUG: This thread is looong.
Click to expand...

Angela,
I am not anywhere near the level of expertise of others that have been advising you. Because I didn't use Lantus, I used PZI on Bob. I do like your logic here. I think it's a good plan. And like Libby just posted, see how it works on 1u, and don't hesitate to increase to 1.25 or 1.5 units if the numbers get worse instead of better.
Just keep posting them as you get them, and plenty of people will be here to assist if needed.

Carl
 
Re: 12/29 Milo AMPS 168 +4 46 +6 54

Libby is also a dosing expert, as is Jill (who is also the moderator of LantusLand, this forum). Great job! Can you update the subject line with the PMPS?
Liz
 
Re: 12/29 Milo PMPS 168 +3 90 +4 73 +5 66

I know these numbers are good but they sure are scary. I hope he goes up soon so I can snooze :smile:
 
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