12/22 Josie AMPS 128 +7 277 PMPS 380 dose advice please

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eccentricfuzzyme

Member Since 2011
Josies numbers have been all over the place lately and i do not know what is real and what is bounces or what else.
obviously this isnt a good dose for her, but do i go up or down?
please advise.
 
Re: 12/21 Josie Need dose advice please

hi angela,

i looked back at your last post to see what advice others have given (multiple heads are better than one!) and just wanted to make sure you saw Carolyn's response. She's got some really good thoughts on josie's numbers. i really want to give you advice, but honestly, i just am not sure what is what either. can you respond to some of the things she mentions here and maybe that would help us figure things out better?


carolynandlatte said:
Hi Angela (right?),
I spent a good amount of time this a.m. reading some of your earlier posts when you arrived here at FDMB, thought a lot about you and Josie today, and now want to sit down to share some thoughts with you. I hope that is ok.

First to answer your protocol questions:
I dont know how to know what is a bounce and what is real.
It is hard to tell at times with most cats, especially in the beginning phases of treatment. Most likely when you see an unusually high number, or numbers increasing instead of decreasing after giving insulin you might assume it is a bounce. In Josie's case it could be a bounce OR a spike from the kibble. A bounce can last up to 72hrs (3 cycles), but not always. Sometimes it may just be one cycle. I know this does not answer your question regarding whether she is bouncing or just high. I don't think anyone can know for sure under the circumstances.

One example of what 'could' be a bounce in Josie's case is Dec 11th-14th. On the 11th she went under 200. She stayed in the high 200's and into the 300's for the next 3cycles. You woke up on the 14th to a blue amps. That 'could' have been her breaking through the bounce.

I dont understand why she has been going up instead of down midday.
Assuming you feed after you test, the kibble is possibly bringing her numbers up around +3 to +6. For some cats it will stay in their system longer than others. This would account for higher mid day readings. The other possibility is that she is going into the 100's (or lower) over night and bouncing the next cycle, only to clear it in time for the evening cycle.

I dont understand how she can have totally different results at the same dose, weeks apart.
Body chemistry changes, diet, mood/stress, other illness or pain. Us humans may think nothing has changed in their world because we have not changed it for them (ie/schedule, food type, attention, etc). They are still living beings. They have ever changing needs, just like us.

I hope my responses help a little.

From reading your other posts, I understand you are Josie's only caretaker. I was the only one who cared for Latte. She had multiple health issues for years, often requiring special feedings, monitoring, and other medications aside from the insulin. I COMPLETELY understand how difficult it is. When we got the FD diagnosis I thought for sure it was the end. I could do no more. I was stretched soooo thin. I had nothing left to give ...emotionally, physically, financially. I had that feeling often the last 9 months of her life. I worked multiple jobs and still did not have money. At times I used the food shelf so I would have money for some of her medical supplies. She has been gone about 1.5yrs now and I still feel like Im trying to get MY life back. Yet, I have absolutely no regrets. I would do it all again (for HER) in a heartbeat. She showed me how much strength I really did have. I want you to know I am not sharing this with expectations that you should/shouldnt put similar dedication into Josie. I am sharing to let you know I get it. I understand what it is like to feel so overwhelmed and well...helpless at times. We all have a threshold for stress, that is for sure!

I know you love Josie. You have had her 14yrs? You took her to the vet when something was wrong. You found this board. You are testing and asking questions. I can also tell you are worried about her. I really do believe you want to help her.

It is clear as a bell that you are not interested in changing Josie's food.

Finances are tough. UG! Do I ever get that one! Some of what you can do for Josie is limited due to funds, am I correct?

You wanted to take the start low/go slow approach because you felt you could not test as much as necessary in order to follow a tighter protocol.

You are feeling extremely frustrated due to the unreliability of her BG numbers.

Here are my thoughts:

If the financial constraints could be lifted a bit, would you be less stressed about your situation? nbbbbb<----- (sorry foster kitty forcing herself on my lap and wanted to contribute :lol: ). There are resources out there to help you. Would you like some information on those options?

You do not have to do daily curves by any means. Would you be able to do 1-2 curves each month? This would mean testing every 3-4hrs, 2 days out of the month. You could do one daytime (movie day!) and one evening (call it a kitty slumber party! :mrgreen: ). This would help give YOU a better idea as to when you should increase or lower the dose. It may be a time commitment, but in the end take up less time because you are not consumed with trying to figure things out and being stressed.

Marking on the ss about food as Gayle suggested is a great idea! That is how I learned when Latte was spiking from food and when it would end. I know you have multiple cats, so it may make it more challenging. Gayle has multiple cats too...maybe she can offer more ways to go about it so you know you are monitoring Josie's food and not the other kitties, too?

I did notice Josie has possibly been sitting right around renal threshold for a while now. I wonder if it is possible Josie's UTI is recurring? When a kitty hits renal threshold, sugar is dumped into the urine. Sugar+urinary tract = increased possibilities of infection. Infections can cause BG's to be high or all over the board.

Finally, I am wondering what your main goals are with Josie. We all want a healthy, happy kitty. Im pretty sure I am safe in assuming this! Are you hoping for remission? Are you ok with giving insulin the rest of her life? Is there a certain BG range you would like to see her in on a regular basis? Is there a better way the members of FDMB help you with your goals?

My greatest hope for you is that you can go back to enjoying Josie. I bet you two have exchanged a great deal of love over the last 14yrs. Give that cutie a kiss on the head for me, will ya?
 
Re: 12/21 Josie Need dose advice please

It looks to me like what you are currently seeing is a bounce. It doesn't look like Josie has been spending much time in numbers under 200. As a result, I suspect her liver is "panicking" in response to the blues. If you see a lower number (like the blues) and there's a subsequent rise into pinks, there's a pretty good chance it's a bounce. It can take up to 72 hours for a bounce to clear.
 
Re: 12/21 Josie Need dose advice please

that is what i dont understand. people say to wait a few days then change her dose based on the numbers, but if she is in a constant bounce, how am i supposed to do that? she has been at this dose for 2 weeks and never stablaized, her numbers just got weird, going up instead of down many mid days.
do i just wait til she is out of it? how do i know when a bounce is cleared? it seems as soon as one is cleared the next comes.

i am just trying to get through this month. in the new year i am going to be looking at other options, but i want her as stabalized as i can get her by then.
 
Re: 12/21 Josie Need dose advice please

if i understand what sienne is saying, she's looking at 12/19 with the 140 and 137 and thinking those caused the higher numbers 12/20 and today. that would mean that tomorrow evening you could increase by .25 if you haven't seen anything lower by then.

is josie free-feeding or does she have some kind of eating schedule?
 
Re: 12/21 Josie Need dose advice please

I don't mean to say this to pressure you. It's hard to sort out what may be a bounce or when it may be clearing with limited data. This doesn't mean you need to get a curve every day. But, if it's been close to 72 hours after lower numbers, you may want to try to get an extra test or two in. For example, if you get a yellow tonight and a yellow at AMPS, there's a good chance the bounce has broken. It may be time to increase then. It's hard to juggle your schedule with trying to get a handle on Josie's numbers.
 
Re: 12/21 Josie Need dose advice please

and just as a i thought, she is back down really low again, 128 this morning. so i cant even change her dose. this is insane.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

Should i even shoot at this number?
i didnt even think about it, i just gave her her food as normal, but have no shot.
should i give less, or none at all?
 
Re: 12/21 Josie Need dose advice please

my best guess is this is directly related to her food. i know you want to give her dry food, so let's see if we can figure out how to make that work.

let me try to explain - tell me if this makes sense.

you've got several variables that play into how much insulin a cat needs. think of it like the old-fashioned scales, only there are more than 2 factors that need to balance out. we're trying to hold all the factors constant except for the dose of insulin. these factors include the insulin (is it still good? are the shots given 12 hrs apart? are the shots given basically the same way every time?) and the carbs (is the cat getting the same volume or amount of food daily? are the carbs from the food entering the cats bloodstream at approximately the same time every day?)

when you have too many changing factors at once, you can't tell what is causing what and don't know what to adjust. i think this is the source of the trouble you're having. if you always give josie the same amount of dry food at the same time of day, that would stabilize one factor. if she's free feeding, the amount of carbs entering into her blood stream isn't going to be the same every cycle. sometimes she likely eats more, sometimes less. that means this factor is varying.

with the carbs varying, that means that you're going to have trouble with the dose. 2 factors varying are too many to tinker with.

for example, if you always give her 1/4 cup of dry food with her shot, then pick up the dish at +4, and she's always got it finished by then, then we've controlled how much she's eating. give another 1/4 cup of dry food with the next shot and pick it up 4 hours later again. that would control the carb factor, but only if she actually ate all of the food by +4. i would reduce the amount you give her until zero is left at +4, then always give her that same amount with the shots and always pick it up at +4.

if you do that, then you would be able to figure out how much insulin she needs with the 1/4 cup of dry food twice a day, and insulin becomes your only factor to mess with.

what do you think of that plan?
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

you can shoot the 128 if you are around to monitor her, you have high carb canned food or karo syrup to treat her if she goes too low, and you have enough test strips if you need extras.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

her food or amounts hasnt changed though.
she gets half a cup or so in the morning after testing before shot, and half a cup at night, after testing, before shot.
she eats it all, so she is rarely hungry mid day, but she does have access to food (the same grain free evo dry) because that is what the other two cats eat and they are free fed. but since i make sure she eats her required "dose" of food at meals she rarely eats mid day. i cant take the food up, the other cats need to free feed.

what should i do now? i can only stay home for another hour or so, should i shoot or not? if i dont shoot at all now, will that give time to clear her bounce then get a better idea of dose change tonight or tomorrow?
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

julie & punkin said:
you can shoot the 128 if you are around to monitor her, you have high carb canned food or karo syrup to treat her if she goes too low, and you have enough test strips if you need extras.

i cannot stay home to monitor her. that is the problem.
this is the same problem that has come up before when she first diagnosed and was in blue numbers a lot at a lower dose. i couldnt keep her there because i couldnt shoot full dose since i cant be home to watch her and it was too risk she would go too low.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

i think you just answered your own question, then.

the choices now become you can either skip the shot or shoot a reduced amount, whatever you think is best.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

there are some cats on here that will get high numbers from 1-2 kibble pieces, so if she even eats a tiny during the day, that may be enough.

if you can't control the food, you may just have to accept that her cycles are going to look wonky. she's not going to have a nice curve that matches the ideal lantus curve in the charts. that's ok - but i hear your frustration in not seeing better numbers or a "normal" lantus curve. that curve is one where are the variables are being controlled, and if the carbs aren't controlled you're just not going to see numbers that are like one where the variables are controlled.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

so if i skip now, do i shoot the normal 3 units at night, or do i change the dose based on the numbers?
i can get a reading today at +5 and at pmps.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

i am confused because until a week or two ago (around when i switched to 3 units) she did seem to follow a normal curve, mostly. she would go down mid day, then up. occasional bounces but nothing completely ludicrous like now.
so maybe it is the dose is too high?
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

you would return to josie's normal dose tonight. a reduction is only earned if they go below 50.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

if the dose were too high you would likely be catching some lower numbers, ie, below 100 at least. hard to say for sure, but that's what i would guess.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

i'm not seeing much in the way of normal curves before the 3.0 dose. all looks kinda all over the place, just like it does with the 3.0. maybe someone else will chime in on this.
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 Need dose advice please!

Hi guys .. I don't have much input as far as advice goes .. I can tell you are getting frustrated with Josie's number's and that's understandable .. we have ALL been frustrated .. I did the sugar dance for two years with mocha and trust me, even up until a week before she went off insulin I was still asking questions .. it is a learning game every single day. Some day's you'll know most of the answers and some day's you need to ask for help .. Just hang in there .. when you feel frustrated take a look at the whole picture .. Is Josie feeling good? Eating well? Less urine output? Is she more active? Purring more? Playing more? It does get easier over time ...
 
Re: 12/22 Josie AMPS 128 +7 277 Need dose advice please!

After not shooting this morning she is at 380 now, for her pmps.
i am going to give her 3 units.
 
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