? 12/13 AMPS 59!

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ppp

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Here's a surprise! After last night's .25 reduction (due to < 90 yesterday), and seeing 100s overnight.

He has often hit lows at +12. I saw a note that there is often a "dip" around this time (not to be confused with "nadir"). Wonder if this is true, or if this is an ECID case.

We are of course skipping his shot; and will keep testing, but any insight about how this fits into any pattern would be appreciated.
 
Thanks for the suggestion; I might do that right away next time, to make sure it is not just a 'wonky' reading. (But, there was plenty of blood and testing seemed perfectly normal, overall)

Now at +1 up to 143. (so, maybe was 'wonky' but he did have food, including 2 tsp gravy)

I will keep testing.
 
If you can get off schedule it's OK to shoot 2 hours after the gravy. You'd have to work your way back on schedule either 15min twice a day or 30min once a day.
 
Where did I get it in my head that you don't shoot under 90! (Just went back & read the protocol.) I am really so surprised at myself that I can't seem to retain what I am reading here. Need to do some relaxation therapy, I think.)

Yes, I will consider shooting later; I can adjust.

This trip to see my mother next week (12/20-27) is looming. Just don't know if I can leave my husband with lower numbers. We've been training but Tut is just not nearly as cooperative with him. OTOH, of course, it seems like Tut Wants to get into healthier territory.

I've heard of a vacation strategy. Maybe that's what I need. If this thread doesn't get that, maybe I'll lead off with a title on it tomorrow.
 
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You are doing SLGS, so you never shoot a PS less than 90!! With TR, we shoot anything above 50.

ETA: The 50 is for a human meter. 68 is the cut-off number for a pet meter.
 
You are doing SLGS, so you never shoot a PS less than 90!! With TR, we shoot anything above 50.

I Thought I had read that somewhere. But, looking at the protocol now, here's what I find:

  • Unless your kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L). If kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L) decrease the dose by 0.25 unit immediately.
 
I Thought I had read that somewhere. But, looking at the protocol now, here's what I find:

  • Unless your kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L). If kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L) decrease the dose by 0.25 unit immediately.
That's interesting that it isn't clear that you don't shoot if the PS is below 90.
 
That's interesting that it isn't clear that you don't shoot if the PS is below 90.
Feeling a little less crazy that someone else thought that, too.

With # down again at +3, ... More .. Inclined ... to think the 59 was correct (although numbers don't seem right however read). Nothing in SLGS protocol about any number too low to shoot (?!) Skipping, at least for now, on the 'better safe than sorry' theory.

Would still appreciate any insights/advice.
 
This is from the SLGS sticky, I think a good bit of it is something you can tweak and cater to your/your cats needs, but as far as what numbers to shoot (or not) with this method, note the last paragraph:

Q4.4. My cat's pre-shot level was way below the usual value. Should I give the injection?
A4.4. There's no hard and fast rule, but if you don't have data on how your cat responds to insulin, here are some general guidelines.
  • Below 150 mg/dl (8.3 mmol/L), don't give insulin.
  • Between 150 and 200 (8.3-11.1 mmol/L), you have three options: a.) give nothing; b.) give a token dose (10-25% of the usual dose); c.) feed as usual, test in a couple of hours, and make a decision based on that value.
  • Above 200 (11.1 mmol/L) but below the cat's normal pre-shot value, a reduced dose might be wise.
  • In all cases, if you are reducing or eliminating insulin, it's wise to check for ketones in the urine.
  • Above the normal pre-shot value, give the usual dose, but if the pre-shot value is consistently elevated, it's a good idea to schedule a full glucose curve to see whether a change in dose or insulin is appropriate. In most cases, the target "peak" value should not be below 100 mg/dl (5.6 mmol/L), and for some cats it might be higher.
Keep in mind these are general guidelines, and they should be personalized to your own cat's response to insulin. If your experience is that your cat does not became hypoglycemic with a dose which is close to her usual, then personal experience should be your guide.

With experience, you may find that lowering these thresholds may work well for your cat. When you have reached that stage, the following guidelines are suggested for Lantus and Levemir users following the Start Low Go Slow approach:

If the preshot number is far below usual preshot numbers:
  • Do you need to stay on schedule? Then skip the shot.
  • Do you have some flexibility with your schedule? Then stalling to wait for the number to rise might be a good option. Don't feed, retest after 30-60 minutes, and decide if the number is shootable.
  • Repeat until the cat either reaches a number at which you are comfortable shooting, or enough time has passed that skipping the shot is necessary.
If the preshot number is near usual preshot numbers:
  • Look at your data to see what numbers you have shot in the past and decide what would be a safe, shootable number for your cat. Don't feed. Stall until kitty reaches the preshot number you've decided on and then shoot.
We usually don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 90 mg/dL when following the SLGS Method. Remember that with SLGS, your goal is to achieve flat numbers that are greater than 90, so there is no need to push a cat into numbers lower than that.
 
Aha! There it is:


" the preshot number is near usual preshot numbers:

  • Look at your data to see what numbers you have shot in the past and decide what would be a safe, shootable number for your cat. Don't feed. Stall until kitty reaches the preshot number you've decided on and then shoot.
We usually don't suggest or recommend shooting a preshot number less than 90 mg/dL when following the SLGS Method. Remember that with SLGS, your goal is to achieve flat numbers that are greater than 90, so there is no need to push a cat into numbers lower than that"


Thanks, Stacy. This is of course inconsistent with the advice above in the protocol about just decreasing by .25.
The distinction between the two being if the number is much lower than the usual preshot; and/or if you don't have data. The first of these is true in this case. (The second?? I really think this should read more like, 'if you have not been able to discern a pattern, no matter how much data you have')
 
It is not a contradiction, you have to read that part in context:

Hold the dose for at least a week:
  • Unless your cat won’t eat or you suspect hypoglycemia
  • Unless your kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L). If kitty falls below 90 mg/dL (5 mmol/L) decrease the dose by 0.25 unit immediately.

It's talking about holding a dose, and thus, you would skip a shot if the preshot number is less than 90, and further, you would decrease the next time you shoot by .25. That decrease immediately part doesn't just apply to preshot numbers, either, it's saying if your kitty goes under 90 at any point in the cycle, you decrease (the next time you shoot). It's probably the immediately part that got you, I think they just mean, don't wait until it's convenient for you, decrease on the very next shot (some people like to have increases or decreases start on the am cycle, for instance). It's also saying the below 90 supersedes the "hold the dose for at least a week" instruction.

Confusion is part of the game. :confused: Hope that helps.
 
Thanks. I was just working on getting that distinction. I do think it might be better if there was a note right there that said '(if below 90 at PRESHOT, skip the shot'). I don't envy the folks who tried to get this complexity in writing, though. I doubt I would have done as well.
 
I do recognize that we are lucky relative to those who's #s are so much higher.

But, with so little predictability, it's hard to know what to do. I'm technically (so far) OK to shoot tonight; but afraid he could fall into dangerous territory so easily.
 
Thanks. I was just working on getting that distinction. I do think it might be better if there was a note right there that said '(if below 90 at PRESHOT, skip the shot'). I don't envy the folks who tried to get this complexity in writing, though. I doubt I would have done as well.
But that is also not correct. Read the protocol really slowly. I had to read several times to get it.

So - if at ANY point in the cycle your cat goes below 90 then you reduce by 0.25.

Second is the issue of preshots and that is what @Stacy & Asia posted:

If preshot is below 150 then no shot
If preshot is between 150 and 200 you have three options 1) skip the shot 2) give a token dose (10-25% of usual dose) and 3) feed, wait a couple hrs and rest again then decide based on that value.
If preshot is above 200 but well below usual preshot then a reduced shot is a good idea.

The issue of reduction is separate from preshot dose or not dose decision. Make sense?

On SLGS you should not dose if preshot is below 150 not 90.
 
Not lucky because of the blue numbers, but lucky because of the blue numbers without insulin. I'll let more experienced people weigh in, but you would definitely reduce the dose tonight anyway because of that below 90
 
He earned another reduction today with the 59 this morning so I’d reduce the dose to 1u tonight. On SLGS you reduce anytime they go below 90. You were correct about not shooting this morning. My suggestion for possibly shooting late was only if the AMPS was wonky but looks like it wasn’t :confused:. Typically when you shoot lower numbers they don’t drop as much. As long as you can monitor and have HC food it’s safe to shoot over 90. Good luck with the reduction.
 
He earned another reduction today with the 59 this morning so I’d reduce the dose to 1u tonight. On SLGS you reduce anytime they go below 90. You were correct about not shooting this morning. My suggestion for possibly shooting late was only if the AMPS was wonky but looks like it wasn’t :confused:. Typically when you shoot lower numbers they don’t drop as much. As long as you can monitor and have HC food it’s safe to shoot over 90. Good luck with the reduction.
But if following SLGS you shouldn’t shoot over 150 correct? Maybe she is following TR.
 
if at ANY point in the cycle your cat goes below 90 then you reduce by 0.25.
This is true with SLGS regardless of when the last reduction was taken. On TR we may or may not take a back to back reduction

If preshot is below 150 then no shot
Once a caregiver has enough date most will lower the no shot number to 90 on SLGS as long as they have the data and/or can monitor. For Silver's mom shooting much lower then 150 would be very new and would likely need some assistance the first few times. Having the ability to monitor is key in making these decisions.
 
This is true with SLGS regardless of when the last reduction was taken. On TR we may or may not take a back to back reduction


Once a caregiver has enough date most will lower the no shot number to 90 on SLGS as long as they have the data and/or can monitor. For Silver's mom shooting much lower then 150 would be very new and would likely need some assistance the first few times. Having the ability to monitor is key in making these decisions.
I’m Silver’s mom :-). I’m used to shooting blues. Have shot green when I am home to monitor.
 
I’m Silver’s mom :). I’m used to shooting blues. Have shot green when I am home to monitor.
I see you've been on quite a ride. How good of you to still have time for others.
I have studied spreadsheets and see people even shooting green, but good to hear from an individual who's done it. It does seem so weird when you're coming down 100s of point at a time!
Spent a lot of time yesterday in the "Grief" section and I see it is usually complications (vs. hypos) that takes them. I'm trying to take that in.
So much sadness, of course, along the way.
 
He earned another reduction today with the 59 this morning so I’d reduce the dose to 1u tonight. On SLGS you reduce anytime they go below 90. You were correct about not shooting this morning. My suggestion for possibly shooting late was only if the AMPS was wonky but looks like it wasn’t :confused:. Typically when you shoot lower numbers they don’t drop as much. As long as you can monitor and have HC food it’s safe to shoot over 90. Good luck with the reduction.

I hadn't thought of counting the pre-shoot number as an under 90 for today... also have seen concerns about "back-to-back reductions".

But,I guess this sounds pretty good .. to reduce again to 1.0, if remains stable (and watch).

I do wish I could see some pattern in what is going on. His behavior is a little off today, too. We are just finishing supper. I can't remember when he didn't take his chair between us -- & beg for treats.


I do appreciate the conversation. It may be good things are ahead for us. I'll try to be more positive.
 
I hadn't thought of counting the pre-shoot number as an under 90 for today... also have seen concerns about "back-to-back reductions".

But,I guess this sounds pretty good .. to reduce again to 1.0, if remains stable (and watch).

I do wish I could see some pattern in what is going on. His behavior is a little off today, too. We are just finishing supper. I can't remember when he didn't take his chair between us -- & beg for treats.


I do appreciate the conversation. It may be good things are ahead for us. I'll try to be more positive.

I might be wrong, but I interpret it as current dose of 1.25 gave him a number below 90, and therefore, your next time you shoot, it's a reduction. It doesn't matter if it was today's cycle (since you didn't give a shot) or last night's cycle.

I really wouldn't worry about back to back reductions right now. His numbers have been very good and if he holds the reductions, which he very well could, awesome, if he fails the reduction, you can always go back up. Much better to be safe than sorry.

The pattern I see is mostly pinks and yellows have turned to mostly blues and greens, it doesn't get much better than that! ;)
 
Of course, you're right. And, he just came up to eat and get his shot, so I am feeling much better. Thanks.
 
I'm technically (so far) OK to shoot tonight; but afraid he could fall into dangerous territory so easily.
When you shoot a lower number, the cycles are typically much flatter. You don't get those 100 point drops. Look at some of the other posts here where people shoot green (or low blue), and see what the cycles look like. Glad you gave the 1.0 unit tonight. He got some nice duration from the last shot but he'll probably keep climbing a bit.
 
I see you've been on quite a ride. How good of you to still have time for others.
I have studied spreadsheets and see people even shooting green, but good to hear from an individual who's done it. It does seem so weird when you're coming down 100s of point at a time!
Spent a lot of time yesterday in the "Grief" section and I see it is usually complications (vs. hypos) that takes them. I'm trying to take that in.
So much sadness, of course, along the way.
That’s why I am doing SLGS because now I am out 12 hours a day. When Silver was first diagnosed before his remission - I was home more and felt safer shooting the greens but it was a much lower dose then than now. I’m sure I’ll be quaking in my boots when his numbers come down.

Yes, losing a pet is devastating. I’ve had Silver and his sibling Sasha for 11 years since they were five week old kittens. Being my sole companions all that time I can’t bear the thought of losing either one.
 
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