11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +5.5=44 +7.5=77 +11=98 PMPS=84

Status
Not open for further replies.

Websterthecat

Member Since 2014
Webster dropped into the 40's a few minutes ago. Gave him 1 oz LC food.

He seemed to be doing okay at +2. I fed him 2.5oz 6 hours ago and 1oz a few mins ago after dropping off.

Do you guys think that the drop could be food related? I'm not sure how to stretch his 7.32 oz. I calculated this number a few days ago. Maybe I should be feeding him more?
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +2=221 +5.5=44

Mike, I think you might want to put the ? icon on your subject line. You might need a different food, but I'm not the one to know. This way someone with a clue will see your question faster.
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +2=221 +5.5=44

Hey Webster, no need to follow Tess to visit the mermaids! She really isn't that good a role model for you! :roll:

Unless he is over weight there shouldn't be a problem w/ feeding a little more. When he drops like that though, I'd give a little less and make it MC or maybe a drop of honey. You don't want him too full if he stays low later.
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +2=221 +5.5=44

He's clearing a bounce and usually bounce clearing cycles can be very busy. The SS states his PS was 266 and +2.5 was 221 but the subject line is different. Because he was dropping at AMPS and, if his PS was 266, it would have been a clue at 221 that he might give you an active cycle. Could it be no food between PS and +5? Yes absolutely if he's dropping. The goal in testing sooner is to keep him from earning a reduction. He wasn't doing that well on 0.25u but the 44 earned him a reduction back to it. By catching the dive early and feeding to prevent it, you can hold him at a dose a little longer which allows him to, over time, stay in normal numbers a little longer and allow pancreas healing.

I know it's difficult early on after the first dust settles to get the patterns down especially when they change. It's hard to tell yourself to test at +4 when he's at 221. Sometimes when I see a pattern in Gracie developing and I test a little more often, I find maybe I didn't need to. But the times I do catch her from going lower on me actually help her and she doesn't mind the tests. I've been testing a little more at night lately because she was diving and it does pay off when you can stop the dive and get them to flatten.

For his feeding, you might consider taking the 7.32 oz (if that is per cycle) and divide it into three or four portions fed at PS, +1 and +2 at the very least. Another feeding option is PS, +1, +2, +3. You have to experiment with what works best. Of course, if it's 7.32 oz per day, split it in half for each cycle and then feed portions as described above. When Gracie was on lantus and liked those early drops, I fed her the majority of her food at PS and +1 but smaller portions at +2 and +3. ECID and something different might work for him but I'm not sure if one large helping at PS and then free feeding will work best for him since he does like to dive.

Where is his BG now? I'd be sure I tested 30 mins after you fed that 44.

eta: just saw this from yesterday's condo:
Usually he gets 1-2oz at preshot,and another ounce at +1,+2,+6ish. At night I give him 1.5 oz at shot and then leave a couple ounces later before going to bed.

If possible, I'd try not to feed so close to nadir. It's like throwing the brakes on the insulin. I'd try to get on a schedule that you can consistently do each day and evening so that you are feeding the same way both cycles, as much as possible. If he gets really hungry later in the cycle, you can give him a little boiled chicken breast but don't overdo it because even that can cause a higher PS. But we also don't want him to be hungry. Also realize that if he's still hungry, maybe you need to up his calories just a bit. The formulas are great but some cats, like people, need more or less. If I fed Gracie according to the formula, she'd be a blimp :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +2=221 +5.5=44

Marycatmom said:
Mike, I think you might want to put the ? icon on your subject line. You might need a different food, but I'm not the one to know. This way someone with a clue will see your question faster.

Thanks for the reminder. I always forget about the ? icon.

Either way, I believe that we might have come up with a few ideas to consider here.
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +2=221 +5.5=44

Ann & Tess said:
Hey Webster, no need to follow Tess to visit the mermaids! She really isn't that good a role model for you! :roll:

Unless he is over weight there shouldn't be a problem w/ feeding a little more. When he drops like that though, I'd give a little less and make it MC or maybe a drop of honey. You don't want him too full if he stays low later.

Yes, I only had HC in the house and was trying to decide between HC or LC. I'm going to run out and pick up some MC this evening. What % would you say? 10%-15%?
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +2.5=221 +5.5=44 +7.5=77

nice to see him spending a few hours in green today.

It can be hard to see patterns to the cycles of a cat in the beginning - it gets easier. hang in there!

sending "surf it" vibes to Mr. Webster! I hope he stays green for a little while!

I'd decrease back to 0.25u tonight and see how he does with it now. One thing this last few days is telling you is that at the moment, he likely needs something in between 0.25u and 0.5u.

Reducing the dose:
If kitty drops below 40 (long term diabetic) or 50 (newly diagnosed diabetic) reduce the dose by 0.25 unit. If kitty has a history of not holding reductions well or if reductions are close together... sneak the dose down by shaving the dose rather than reducing by a full quarter unit. See additional notes in the next paragraph about drops into the 20s and 30s. Alternatively, at each newly reduced dose... try to make sure kitty maintains numbers in the normal range for seven days before reducing the dose further.

Please do not let yourself become complacent or blasé about drops into the 20s or 30s.
If kitty drops into the 20s, a full reduction of 0.25u (or 0.5u if kitty is on a higher dose) is strongly recommended.
If your cat drops into the 30s, a full reduction of 0.25u is recommended. There are very few exceptions given for caregivers who have collected years of data and KNOW their cat's response to the combination of insulin and food backwards, forwards, and inside out.
Caregivers whose kitties have "High Dose" conditions may find the need to reduce in whole units or more.
Please ask for advice.

If anyone suggests otherwise, they are putting your cat at risk! Our kitties are not just numbers. They are living beings who trust us to look out for them. The TR Protocol is an aggressive method in itself. The modified version of the protocol is slightly more aggressive.

Keeping YOUR cat safe is the #1 priority of the FDMB.
Let's keep all our kitties in the Lantus Tight Regulation ISG safe by suggesting and taking appropriate reductions.

If an attempted reduction fails, go right back up to the last good dose as soon as you see kitty's numbers trending upwards. You don't have to hold the reduced dose for a certain number of cycles before taking the dose right back up. The guidelines listed under the topic "Increasing the dose" do not apply to a failed reduction.

Please use common sense in this situation. The "last good dose" is not the dose that just dropped kitty into the 20s or 30s. You want to resume momentum by finding a dose in-between the dose that dropped kitty too low and the reduced dose.

What the above highlighted part means is that when a reduction occurs, you want the cat to still hold the same range of green numbers as they did prior to the reduction. He's likely to bounce from this. When he clears the bounce, if you see Webster not hitting green numbers again, ie, if his nadirs are over 100, you might want to immediately go back to 0.5u. You can also try to hit something in between.

The goal is to keep the momentum and the green numbers and if he's trending up after this dose decrease, don't wait to take him back up. Then if he gets below 50 again, shaving the dose might be a good solution instead of taking a full 0.25u reduction. I think I'd take the full 0.25u today mainly because he's only had 1 failed reduction so far - the last time you went to 0.25u, so being that he is so very newly diagnosed, i'd probably give him another chance to make the 0.25u dose work before I went to shaving the dose. Does that make sense?

It's up to you, though. Perhaps someone else will have another idea about it.
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +2=221 +5.5=44

Marje and Gracie said:
He's clearing a bounce and usually bounce clearing cycles can be very busy. The SS states his PS was 266 and +2.5 was 221 but the subject line is different. Because he was dropping at AMPS and, if his PS was 266, it would have been a clue at 221 that he might give you an active cycle. Could it be no food between PS and +5? Yes absolutely if he's dropping. The goal in testing sooner is to keep him from earning a reduction. He wasn't doing that well on 0.25u but the 44 earned him a reduction back to it. By catching the dive early and feeding to prevent it, you can hold him at a dose a little longer which allows him to, over time, stay in normal numbers a little longer and allow pancreas healing.

I know it's difficult early on after the first dust settles to get the patterns down especially when they change. It's hard to tell yourself to test at +4 when he's at 221. Sometimes when I see a pattern in Gracie developing and I test a little more often, I find maybe I didn't need to. But the times I do catch her from going lower on me actually help her and she doesn't mind the tests. I've been testing a little more at night lately because she was diving and it does pay off when you can stop the dive and get them to flatten.

For his feeding, you might consider taking the 7.32 oz (if that is per cycle) and divide it into three or four portions fed at PS, +1 and +2 at the very least. Another feeding option is PS, +1, +2, +3. You have to experiment with what works best. Of course, if it's 7.32 oz per day, split it in half for each cycle and then feed portions as described above. When Gracie was on lantus and liked those early drops, I fed her the majority of her food at PS and +1 but smaller portions at +2 and +3. ECID and something different might work for him but I'm not sure if one large helping at PS and then free feeding will work best for him since he does like to dive.

Where is his BG now? I'd be sure I tested 30 mins after you fed that 44.

eta: just saw this from yesterday's condo:
Usually he gets 1-2oz at preshot,and another ounce at +1,+2,+6ish. At night I give him 1.5 oz at shot and then leave a couple ounces later before going to bed.

If possible, I'd try not to feed so close to nadir. It's like throwing the brakes on the insulin. I'd try to get on a schedule that you can consistently do each day and evening so that you are feeding the same way both cycles, as much as possible. If he gets really hungry later in the cycle, you can give him a little boiled chicken breast but don't overdo it because even that can cause a higher PS. But we also don't want him to be hungry. Also realize that if he's still hungry, maybe you need to up his calories just a bit. The formulas are great but some cats, like people, need more or less. If I fed Gracie according to the formula, she'd be a blimp :lol: :lol: :lol:

Thanks for responding. Sorry, I was going to respond earlier but had company over for Thanksgiving weekend.

In response to your response:

In the first 2.5 hours he dropped 18 per hour. Is this a fast drop off? In the past we have seen him drop 100+ per hour which really signaled that he was going to continue to drop fast. How many points per hour between PS and +2 would you consider a red flag?

Thank you for the explanation concerning feeding him to prevent a dip into the 40's. I understand how this works, however, sometime I'm not able to be here to test him (as was the case today)

I really think that a good part of the drop today had to do with having no food. He inhaled 2.5oz immediately for breakfast which I thought would be enough to hold him over for a few hours. I'm still trying to determine how to spread out his meal to keep a steady stream of food going. As Ann suggested, I might try to feed him a little more than the 7.3 ounces that I calculated a few days ago.

As you mentioned dividing up into 3-4 portions sounds like a good idea. How does this sound: 1 oz at PS,+1+2+3? That would be 8oz per day. Do you think he will be okay with no food between +4 to +1? Is there anything else that I can do besides feed him boiled chicken breast when hungry towards the end of his cycle?
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +2.5=221 +5.5=44 +7.5=77

julie & punkin (ga) said:
nice to see him spending a few hours in green today.

It can be hard to see patterns to the cycles of a cat in the beginning - it gets easier. hang in there!

sending "surf it" vibes to Mr. Webster! I hope he stays green for a little while!

I'd decrease back to 0.25u tonight and see how he does with it now. One thing this last few days is telling you is that at the moment, he likely needs something in between 0.25u and 0.5u.

Reducing the dose:
If kitty drops below 40 (long term diabetic) or 50 (newly diagnosed diabetic) reduce the dose by 0.25 unit. If kitty has a history of not holding reductions well or if reductions are close together... sneak the dose down by shaving the dose rather than reducing by a full quarter unit. See additional notes in the next paragraph about drops into the 20s and 30s. Alternatively, at each newly reduced dose... try to make sure kitty maintains numbers in the normal range for seven days before reducing the dose further.

Please do not let yourself become complacent or blasé about drops into the 20s or 30s.
If kitty drops into the 20s, a full reduction of 0.25u (or 0.5u if kitty is on a higher dose) is strongly recommended.
If your cat drops into the 30s, a full reduction of 0.25u is recommended. There are very few exceptions given for caregivers who have collected years of data and KNOW their cat's response to the combination of insulin and food backwards, forwards, and inside out.
Caregivers whose kitties have "High Dose" conditions may find the need to reduce in whole units or more.
Please ask for advice.

If anyone suggests otherwise, they are putting your cat at risk! Our kitties are not just numbers. They are living beings who trust us to look out for them. The TR Protocol is an aggressive method in itself. The modified version of the protocol is slightly more aggressive.

Keeping YOUR cat safe is the #1 priority of the FDMB.
Let's keep all our kitties in the Lantus Tight Regulation ISG safe by suggesting and taking appropriate reductions.

If an attempted reduction fails, go right back up to the last good dose as soon as you see kitty's numbers trending upwards. You don't have to hold the reduced dose for a certain number of cycles before taking the dose right back up. The guidelines listed under the topic "Increasing the dose" do not apply to a failed reduction.

Please use common sense in this situation. The "last good dose" is not the dose that just dropped kitty into the 20s or 30s. You want to resume momentum by finding a dose in-between the dose that dropped kitty too low and the reduced dose.

What the above highlighted part means is that when a reduction occurs, you want the cat to still hold the same range of green numbers as they did prior to the reduction. He's likely to bounce from this. When he clears the bounce, if you see Webster not hitting green numbers again, ie, if his nadirs are over 100, you might want to immediately go back to 0.5u. You can also try to hit something in between.

The goal is to keep the momentum and the green numbers and if he's trending up after this dose decrease, don't wait to take him back up. Then if he gets below 50 again, shaving the dose might be a good solution instead of taking a full 0.25u reduction. I think I'd take the full 0.25u today mainly because he's only had 1 failed reduction so far - the last time you went to 0.25u, so being that he is so very newly diagnosed, i'd probably give him another chance to make the 0.25u dose work before I went to shaving the dose. Does that make sense?

It's up to you, though. Perhaps someone else will have another idea about it.

I agree, I think he's likely going to settle somewhere between .25U and .50U(however the heck you measure such a dose). I am almost certain that he's going to jump back up into the 400's and 500's if I were to reduce his dose to .25u. My best guess is that today's drop was food related and that stretching his feeding out will help to prevent this in the future. Then again, this is simply a guess based on my limited knowledge.

At +10 he was at 98 which kinda scares me as we approach his next shot in just over an hour.

I'm thinking a reduction to .25U tonight or perhaps skipping his insulin all together if he's not rising much above 100 by PMPS. I'm guessing that In all likelihood, he's going to ultimately return to .50u or somewhere in between .25 and .50 with the new dose once I zero in on a feeding strategy to prevent these drop offs.

Any one else have thoughts on tonight's dosing and dosing in general moving forward?

Edit: He's still at 98 once again at +11
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +5.5=44 +7.5=77 +11=98 Dosing adv

You can mix HC and LC to get a MC food if you are out of it.
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +5.5=44 +7.5=77 +11=98 Dosing adv

Ann & Tess said:
You can mix HC and LC to get a MC food if you are out of it.

Hum.. Brilliant. Never thought of this. How much should I be giving him at a time? Just a tablespoon total and retest 30 mins later?

So what do you think about tonight's dose Ann? While I'm convinced that today's drop off was caused by a lack of food between +2 and +5, I'm leaning towards sticking with the protocol as suggested by Marje and Julie and dropping him back down to the .25u for now.

However, as his shot time approaches in 20 mins, I'm a bit concerned about the 98's that received at +10 and +11
 
Re: 11/30 Webster AMPS=226 +5.5=44 +7.5=77 +11=98 Dosing adv

PMPS=84

I know it's important to not miss a dose but I'm not feeling very good about this 84. I think I'm going to skip tonight's dose and start tomorrow with the .25u.
 
Hi Mike,
Webster is keeping you on your toes!
Many cats (Rusty included) benefit from a small LC snack at around +9. You could try that and see if it will work for Webster.

Hang in there!

Ella & Rusty
 
Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) said:
Hi Mike,
Webster is keeping you on your toes!
Many cats (Rusty included) benefit from a small LC snack at around +9. You could try that and see if it will work for Webster.

Hang in there!

Ella & Rusty

Hum. Do you mean like a piece of freeze dried chicken?
 
I give a little LC canned food. About a heaping spoonful (regular teaspoon, not a measuring spoon). Freeze dried treats have no carbs and almost no calories.

Ella
 
Did you shoot the 84?

there is a difference between shooting an 84 that has been dropping all day and shooting an 84 that is basically flat, which is what you've got tonight. At some point you're going to want to shoot lower numbers if you're wanting to work him off of insulin - but it doesn't have to be tonight.

Skipping his shot entirely will likely mean that you're going to see a high number in the morning.

Another option besides skipping is to test every 30 minutes or so til he's rising, then shoot immediately. I'll pull up the reference for you, but wanted to post this to you right away for you to consider.
 
What you saw tonight was an example of the Lantus double dip. Many Lantus (and Levemir) kitties will do a second dip at their end of the cycle. They drop down again, but not as low as the nadir. In this case, it does not signal a general downward trend and would have been fine to shoot.

The last time you skipped, he ended up starting the next cycle in black.
 
From the "Shooting and Handling Low Numbers" sticky:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

~ written by Libby and Lucy

When you shoot a lower number (50-120ish), cats typically have a flatter cycle - maybe only moving a few points in the whole 12 hours. Shooting a higher number isn't necessarily safer than a lower number because the cat has so much farther they can "fall" with their blood sugar. If you want to skip tonight, go ahead, but try to wrap your head around shooting lower numbers. This is an explanation that i wrote for Darin a while ago about shooting normal numbers. Look at Webster's cycle on the evening of 11/22. You shot a lower blue and he stayed in blues and greens for hours until he bounced.

regarding your question about food timing -

As you mentioned dividing up into 3-4 portions sounds like a good idea. How does this sound: 1 oz at PS,+1+2+3? That would be 8oz per day. Do you think he will be okay with no food between +4 to +1? Is there anything else that I can do besides feed him boiled chicken breast when hungry towards the end of his cycle?

Your plan
1 oz at PS,+1+2+3?
sounds good. I didn't feed punkin from +3 til the next preshot except for a little boiled chicken sometimes. Webster will be fine with it, even if he doesn't like it.
 
just fyi - when you're looking for help on shooting or dose, make sure you say something in the subject line so that people who are willing to help look at those see that you're waiting for help.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
Did you shoot the 84?

there is a difference between shooting an 84 that has been dropping all day and shooting an 84 that is basically flat, which is what you've got tonight. At some point you're going to want to shoot lower numbers if you're wanting to work him off of insulin - but it doesn't have to be tonight.

Skipping his shot entirely will likely mean that you're going to see a high number in the morning.

Another option besides skipping is to test every 30 minutes or so til he's rising, then shoot immediately. I'll pull up the reference for you, but wanted to post this to you right away for you to consider.

Didn't shoot the 84 because I haven't familiarized myself with shooting low numbers yet. In addition, I'm pretty exhausted from checking him all day while trying to entertain my company all while running on 3 hours of sleep. Yawn.

I was kind of expecting a high number in the morning. :-|
 
Wendy&Neko said:
What you saw tonight was an example of the Lantus double dip. Many Lantus (and Levemir) kitties will do a second dip at their end of the cycle. They drop down again, but not as low as the nadir. In this case, it does not signal a general downward trend and would have been fine to shoot.

The last time you skipped, he ended up starting the next cycle in black.

Yes, unfortunately it's likely that he will go into the black by the morning. I hate to see this but too afraid to shoot that 84 at this time. Will have to do more reading.
 
Thank you for the explanation. I will have to read up on this topic over the next couple days.

julie & punkin (ga) said:
sounds good. I didn't feed punkin from +3 til the next preshot except for a little boiled chicken sometimes. Webster will be fine with it, even if he doesn't like it.

What do you mean "fine with it" and "even if he doesn't like it"

Fine with what? doesn't like what? Sorry, I might be asking a dumb question but could use some clarification. It's been a long day and I'm very tired.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
just fyi - when you're looking for help on shooting or dose, make sure you say something in the subject line so that people who are willing to help look at those see that you're waiting for help.

Thank you Julie. I had "dosing advice" posted in the title but took it down shortly after deciding to skip tonights shot once his shot time had passed.
 
Cats will survive several hours without food, but may not be happy with it. Like Punkin, Neko is also an acrocat and focused on food. When on Lantus, I cheated and gave her a no/low carb snack at AM+9, but she survives 9 hours without food over night.
 
I mean that he won't starve between +4 and the next preshot. He might TELL you that he's starving, but he won't be. In nature a cat isn't going to be nibbling all around the clock. They're going to catch a mouse or a bird and devour it, then it will be some time before they catch another one. A diabetic cat, of course, isn't living in nature so you are in charge of his food. You want to time his food to work best with the insulin, and that means in the first half of the cycle for most cats.

If a cat is a grazer and just nibbles around the clock, that's different. Many cats do fine grazing little bits all the time. But if he's going to eat everything you put out the moment you set it down, you want to minimize the volume of food/carbs in the second half of the insulin cycle when the insulin's strength is waning.
 
You and I may be learning to dose with calipers next. There's info on it around here somewhere including videos, but I haven't wrapped my head around it yet. Too much math for me! I'm going to have to pass that part off to Don. :-D
 
oh, and sorry no one saw your request about help with the shot. :-D i'd scanned back up through your posts and didn't see "dose advice" in any of the subject lines and assumed you hadn't added it. i wasn't criticizing, just suggesting how you could get the help you needed.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
oh, and sorry no one saw your request about help with the shot. :-D i'd scanned back up through your posts and didn't see "dose advice" in any of the subject lines and assumed you hadn't added it. i wasn't criticizing, just suggesting how you could get the help you needed.

I understand and appreciate you mentioning this. No offense taken. :smile:
 
Marycatmom said:
You and I may be learning to dose with calipers next. There's info on it around here somewhere including videos, but I haven't wrapped my head around it yet. Too much math for me! I'm going to have to pass that part off to Don. :-D

I think I'll go and start reading up on it. Do you have any good links to get me started?
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Cats will survive several hours without food, but may not be happy with it. Like Punkin, Neko is also an acrocat and focused on food. When on Lantus, I cheated and gave her a no/low carb snack at AM+9, but she survives 9 hours without food over night.

What's an acrocat?

Edit: Nevermind, I see you mean Acromegaly
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
I mean that he won't starve between +4 and the next preshot. He might TELL you that he's starving, but he won't be. In nature a cat isn't going to be nibbling all around the clock. They're going to catch a mouse or a bird and devour it, then it will be some time before they catch another one. A diabetic cat, of course, isn't living in nature so you are in charge of his food. You want to time his food to work best with the insulin, and that means in the first half of the cycle for most cats.

If a cat is a grazer and just nibbles around the clock, that's different. Many cats do fine grazing little bits all the time. But if he's going to eat everything you put out the moment you set it down, you want to minimize the volume of food/carbs in the second half of the insulin cycle when the insulin's strength is waning.

Thanks for explaining. I didn't realize until recently that I should be minimizing feeding in the second half of his cycle. This is going to help me zero in on a feeding schedule that works well with his insulin.
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
Here is a post that can help you find info on the site that might be helpful: Where Can I Find ____?

the info on calipers is on there - look at the list of posts at the bottom.

Thank you for posting this. It's a fantastic resource that been bookmarked for future reference!

As for dosing using the caliper, I happen to have one of these. I have noticed that the print on some syringes is sometimes questionable. This is a great way to measure smaller doses consistently and will come in handy if I have to measure that .375U dose in the future.
 
Im sorry I didn't get back around, Mike. We had some things going on as well. Life ;-) :-D :-D

First, here's the direct link to Dosing with Calipers. If you already have them, I''d suggest using them. In the studies I did on some of the syringes, the syringe inaccuracy can be very large from syringe to syringe in the same box. In some of the monojects I studied, it was up to 0.46u!

Regarding your question about his drop yesterday between PS and +2.5 being 18 mg/dL an hour....Maybe not. It doesn't work that way :-D He could have been flst from PS to +1.5 and then dropped 35 in the next hour. Or in the last 30 minutes. So you have to shift your mind away from thinking that the drop/hour is consistent. Better to focus on whether the +2 is similar to or much lower than the PS. If it's similar to it, it's likely to be an active Lantus cycle....which it was. If it's much lower, you could see a very active cycle with an early, lower number.

I'm also sorry none of us were here to help you shoot. I understand about having company, etc. but next time, with the same scenario for Webster (flat for many hours, second dip), if you are rested and have supplies, it's time to learn to shoot some better numbers :mrgreen: the first few times are :shock: I remember thinking I could never shoot below 150. I did. Then it was 100 nailbite_smile pretty soon, I was shooting everything above 50.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Im sorry I didn't get back around, Mike. We had some things going on as well. Life ;-) :-D :-D

First, here's the direct link to Dosing with Calipers. If you already have them, I''d suggest using them. In the studies I did on some of the syringes, the syringe inaccuracy can be very large from syringe to syringe in the same box. In some of the monojects I studied, it was up to 0.46u!

Regarding your question about his drop yesterday between PS and +2.5 being 18 mg/dL an hour....Maybe not. It doesn't work that way :-D He could have been flst from PS to +1.5 and then dropped 35 in the next hour. Or in the last 30 minutes. So you have to shift your mind away from thinking that the drop/hour is consistent. Better to focus on whether the +2 is similar to or much lower than the PS. If it's similar to it, it's likely to be an active Lantus cycle....which it was. If it's much lower, you could see a very active cycle with an early, lower number.

I'm also sorry none of us were here to help you shoot. I understand about having company, etc. but next time, with the same scenario for Webster (flat for many hours, second dip), if you are rested and have supplies, it's time to learn to shoot some better numbers :mrgreen: the first few times are :shock: I remember thinking I could never shoot below 150. I did. Then it was 100 nailbite_smile pretty soon, I was shooting everything above 50.

Thank you Marje. I completely understand if you or anyone else is not able to help shoot or answer a question at a moments notice. We all have our lives outside of taking care of our diabetic cats. I sincerely appreciate everyone who takes the time to respond to any of my questions.

I can see how there can be almost a 1/2 unit variance from one syringe to another. It seems like syringe manufacturers would have resolved this quality control issue by now but I guess not.

I understand what you mean by not averaging 2 or more hours to come up with an average drop per hour. However, I'm still not clear on how a similar number PS to +2 number would indicate an active cycle. It seems as if a similar number would indicate stability in the coming hours. Could you please further explain?

As for shooting low numbers, I'm getting there. After an insanely busy holiday, last night was not a good night to test my ability to shoot low. I'm sure the opportunity will arrive once again soon and hopefully I will be more well versed and more rested.
 
I can see how there can be almost a 1/2 unit variance from one syringe to another. It seems like syringe manufactures would have resolved this quality control issue by now but I guess not.

You have to consider that the syringes and standards are made for humans who use much larger doses and a half unit variance won't really matter. As for fixing the problem, the syringe maker that many of us use has done that in a way. They are discontinuing the product! :twisted:
 
Ann & Tess said:
I can see how there can be almost a 1/2 unit variance from one syringe to another. It seems like syringe manufactures would have resolved this quality control issue by now but I guess not.

You have to consider that the syringes and standards are made for humans who use much larger doses and a half unit variance won't really matter. As for fixing the problem, the syringe maker that many of us use has done that in a way. They are discontinuing the product! :twisted:

I was thinking along the same lines. I suppose the syringe makers do not have small pets and micro dosing in mind. What are you guys using? I picked up some BD's just because I needed them at the time. They seemed a bit on the more expensive side at $30 for 100.
 
A lot of us get our syringes from ADW. WE've been getting Terumos, but they are discontinued and no longer available. There was a thread on it a few weeks ago and I did a SS for alternatives. Members are trying some of them to see what works best. Other members get the Relion Syringes from Walmart. You should be able to get syringes for about $15 a box. Online is usually cheaper than retail.
 
Ann & Tess said:
A lot of us get our syringes from ADW. WE've been getting Terumos, but they are discontinued and no longer available. There was a thread on it a few weeks ago and I did a SS for alternatives. Members are trying some of them to see what works best. Other members get the Relion Syringes from Walmart. You should be able to get syringes for about $15 a box. Online is usually cheaper than retail.

Thank you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top