? 11/30 Belle AMPS 265, +3.5 104, +6 152, +10 191, PMPS 208, +2 191
- Thread starter icesnow
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Usually a curve is done to determine the effectiveness of a particular dose. But that means having been at a particular dose long enough for the Lantus depot to be in place. It takes about 6 cycles or 3 days at a dose, without any changes to stabilize the depot. Since you are using the SLGS method, it recommends waiting a week to do the curve. Today is just the third cycle in a row at 2.25 units and you had a skipped dose two nights ago. I think you should wait a couple days before doing the official curve. However, there is nothing wrong with collecting data with periodic tests throughout the cycle.
I also highly recommend getting some tests in the evening cycle. Many cats go a lot lower at night than during the day, and since we determine the dose to give based on the low numbers, that means getting some night time tests. I like to get a test just before I turn out the lights to go to sleep.
I also highly recommend getting some tests in the evening cycle. Many cats go a lot lower at night than during the day, and since we determine the dose to give based on the low numbers, that means getting some night time tests. I like to get a test just before I turn out the lights to go to sleep.
I saw your questions in yesterday's post. Good low carb treats are anything that is pure meat. You can boil a plain chicken breast and cut it into cubes or you can buy freeze dried meat treats in most pet food stores. My crew love the freeze dried chicken, beef, turkey etc. You can buy bigger bags usually in the dog section and chop them into smaller pieces. Orijen also makes a line of freeze dried treats that are well liked here.
The trick with testing is that you want to try to catch the lower points of the cycle, if you are home to test then. Cats typically nadir around +4 to +7 on Lantus, although not all cats follow the rules. From your test yesterday, it looks like Belle might have somewhere from +4 to +6 as his lower times, so I'd try to get spot checks then during the day when you can. You don' t have to test all those hours, mix it up from day to day. It's like trying to fill in pieces in a puzzle by getting different tests. If you get a test below 100, I'd get another test in an hour to make sure he's not still going lower. You want to make sure he's not going too low and to intervene with carbs if he does.
A test that is often a good one to get is the +2. If it's quite a bit lower than the preshot test, then you'll likely see him go lower. Yesterday was a good example of that. If you can get a +2 at night and see a lower number, that might be a night you want to get a later test or make sure you leave some food out for him to snack on if he goes lower.
The trick with testing is that you want to try to catch the lower points of the cycle, if you are home to test then. Cats typically nadir around +4 to +7 on Lantus, although not all cats follow the rules. From your test yesterday, it looks like Belle might have somewhere from +4 to +6 as his lower times, so I'd try to get spot checks then during the day when you can. You don' t have to test all those hours, mix it up from day to day. It's like trying to fill in pieces in a puzzle by getting different tests. If you get a test below 100, I'd get another test in an hour to make sure he's not still going lower. You want to make sure he's not going too low and to intervene with carbs if he does.
A test that is often a good one to get is the +2. If it's quite a bit lower than the preshot test, then you'll likely see him go lower. Yesterday was a good example of that. If you can get a +2 at night and see a lower number, that might be a night you want to get a later test or make sure you leave some food out for him to snack on if he goes lower.
icesnow
Member Since 2015
@Wendy&Neko
Ok, i guess we will hold off on the curve until later this week, maybe thursday. I will try to collect data on+6 tho, since i don't hv much data on that. and will try to stay up enough to do the +2 after PM shoot
he usually gets his shots late at night, so it is harder to collect PM data.
BTW, regarding the diet, i understand, diabetic cats needs a diet of high in protein; however, Belle's previous blood test indicates that he had kidney deficiency before (he was on kidney diet before), and his most recent blood test (months ago tho) indicates that he no longer has the kidney deficiency issue (they said mostly becos he was on the kidney diet); However, kidney diet is low in protein VS diabetic diet is high in protein.
Ok, i guess we will hold off on the curve until later this week, maybe thursday. I will try to collect data on+6 tho, since i don't hv much data on that. and will try to stay up enough to do the +2 after PM shoot
he usually gets his shots late at night, so it is harder to collect PM data.
BTW, regarding the diet, i understand, diabetic cats needs a diet of high in protein; however, Belle's previous blood test indicates that he had kidney deficiency before (he was on kidney diet before), and his most recent blood test (months ago tho) indicates that he no longer has the kidney deficiency issue (they said mostly becos he was on the kidney diet); However, kidney diet is low in protein VS diabetic diet is high in protein.
icesnow
Member Since 2015
@Wendy&Neko
in regards to the second reply.
yes, i will try to get some spot checks during the day to fill in some of those data before doing an official curve later this week.
and try to do the +2 PM test.
he does have dry food (EVO) out all night for him to eat, and i noticed that he finished up the bowl from last night.
in regards to the second reply.
yes, i will try to get some spot checks during the day to fill in some of those data before doing an official curve later this week.
and try to do the +2 PM test.
he does have dry food (EVO) out all night for him to eat, and i noticed that he finished up the bowl from last night.
My Neko has early stage renal disease. The most current research shows that high quality protein that is low in phosphorus (not dry food) is best. It's only in later stages of kidney disease that amount of protein is a worry. Tanya's website has lots to say about best food for kidney disease.
icesnow
Member Since 2015
thanks for the info... does Neko has both diabetes and renal issues too?
Since he has both diabetes and kidney issues, will need diet that is good for both. Is fancy feast still ok good enough?
but Belle's not able to weed off dry food...
with all cats getting old and ill, it's getting overwhelming, heartbreaking... and i m broke...
Since he has both diabetes and kidney issues, will need diet that is good for both. Is fancy feast still ok good enough?
but Belle's not able to weed off dry food...
with all cats getting old and ill, it's getting overwhelming, heartbreaking... and i m broke...
Neko has diabetes caused by acromegaly (a high dose condition) and early stage renal disease. I feed her mostly raw food (low phosphorus) or low carb/low phosphorus canned food. Fance Feast is not an appropriate diet for kidney kitties - it is way too high in phosphorus. If you take a look at the link to Tanya's web site I gave above or the food chart, look for foods under 10% of carbs and ideally less than 200 in phosphorus.
You can buy some foods in larger sized cans which make it more economical, and they'll be cheaper than the prescription foods.
You can buy some foods in larger sized cans which make it more economical, and they'll be cheaper than the prescription foods.
Vyktors Mum
Member Since 2011
If you can get it I'd like to see a +5 today so we can tick that box on the spreadsheet.
For testing treats it's best to give something extra special that they don't get at other times
For testing treats it's best to give something extra special that they don't get at other times
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey
Member Since 2011
Yes, those foods are good options. You might check around for the best price - unfortunately those are brands that are only carried in pet stores, not Walmart or grocery stores. If you find your kitties like it, you can order it at Chewy.com for less, and their shipping is free. Wellness grain free turkey is a good choice, and most of the Weruva line is good, if your kitties like shredded food (mine don't).
I understand your position. I have four elderly cats (13-17 years old). All were diagnosed with cancer within the past 18 months. Two are diabetic. Two have kidney issues (one of the diabetic ones), one is blind, and one lost her right front leg to cancer. Just like people, the older cats get, the more likely they are to suffer from a chronic or serious disease. You just do the best you can and try to give them a good quality of life.
I understand your position. I have four elderly cats (13-17 years old). All were diagnosed with cancer within the past 18 months. Two are diabetic. Two have kidney issues (one of the diabetic ones), one is blind, and one lost her right front leg to cancer. Just like people, the older cats get, the more likely they are to suffer from a chronic or serious disease. You just do the best you can and try to give them a good quality of life.
icesnow
Member Since 2015
@Tricia & Cinco
do you know if those cat food are available at petsmart? if so, i can get some for them to try first b4 ordering more
2 of my own and most beloved cats passed away (one last year, one couple weeks ago) to pancreatitis. Now left with 3 that were abandoned by neighbors, and chinchillas abandoned by friends. I feel bad for my own cats, becos i took in so many of the abandoned ones, i didn't give enough time for my own 2 cats, and wasn't able to notice their illness early on.
and since all the other ones are also old and ill, (one also lost a leg due to fibersocoma few years ago, and now hv hyperthroid), it is very stressful for me... coping with my lost, and having to take care of sick ones at the same time...
do you know if those cat food are available at petsmart? if so, i can get some for them to try first b4 ordering more
2 of my own and most beloved cats passed away (one last year, one couple weeks ago) to pancreatitis. Now left with 3 that were abandoned by neighbors, and chinchillas abandoned by friends. I feel bad for my own cats, becos i took in so many of the abandoned ones, i didn't give enough time for my own 2 cats, and wasn't able to notice their illness early on.
and since all the other ones are also old and ill, (one also lost a leg due to fibersocoma few years ago, and now hv hyperthroid), it is very stressful for me... coping with my lost, and having to take care of sick ones at the same time...
Chris & China (GA)
Member Since 2013
There's no way to know when the nadir is going to be from one cycle to the next....it's "usually" around the same time, but it can vary from cycle to cycle
What you're trying to learn now is when Belle "usually" nadirs....is he going to be an early nadir cat? (like +3 or +4) or is he going to be a mid-cycle?(+5 to +8)....or is he going to be a late nadir cat? (+8 to +11)
His low point for today COULD have been 104....and he may come down again....some cats do!...but it's not so important to know exactly how low he got ....what we watch for more than individual numbers are "patterns".....is the dose usually getting them into the numbers we want them in? That's the question we want to answer!!
What you're trying to learn now is when Belle "usually" nadirs....is he going to be an early nadir cat? (like +3 or +4) or is he going to be a mid-cycle?(+5 to +8)....or is he going to be a late nadir cat? (+8 to +11)
His low point for today COULD have been 104....and he may come down again....some cats do!...but it's not so important to know exactly how low he got ....what we watch for more than individual numbers are "patterns".....is the dose usually getting them into the numbers we want them in? That's the question we want to answer!!
Chris & China (GA)
Member Since 2013
Yes...they're available at the big pet food stores like PetsMart and PetCo
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey
Member Since 2011
Weruva isn't at Petsmart, but the others are. I think Incredible Pets carries it, if you have one near you. Tiki Cat is another. These all contain fish, so if anyone has a fish sensitivity, this isn't the food for them.
Two of my cats are Hyper-T, also.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Try not to feel guilty. Cats are amazing at hiding their pain or discomfort. I lost one three years ago because I didn't realize in time that he wasn't eating enough, and by the time I got him to the vet, the damage was done. I still feel horrible about it, but I've learned from it - I watch my kitties like a hawk now! (We're called helicopter moms!)
Two of my cats are Hyper-T, also.
I'm so sorry for your loss. Try not to feel guilty. Cats are amazing at hiding their pain or discomfort. I lost one three years ago because I didn't realize in time that he wasn't eating enough, and by the time I got him to the vet, the damage was done. I still feel horrible about it, but I've learned from it - I watch my kitties like a hawk now! (We're called helicopter moms!)
icesnow
Member Since 2015
thanks you for the explaination @Chris & China
we have Petsmart, Petco, Pet Food Express (i think this is only in Calif) in the area, and that's it.
@Tricia & Cinco
another thing i feel so bad about is, i trusted the vet. and the vet was not giving her the right treatment, and just becos they want to make more money, by keeping her sick. and never gave her the right medication until it was too late. and still charged me over $5000
(i found out only becos i consulted with other vets afterward)
same vet who keep increasing Belle's insulin dosage to 8 units a day.
we have Petsmart, Petco, Pet Food Express (i think this is only in Calif) in the area, and that's it.
@Tricia & Cinco
another thing i feel so bad about is, i trusted the vet. and the vet was not giving her the right treatment, and just becos they want to make more money, by keeping her sick. and never gave her the right medication until it was too late. and still charged me over $5000
(i found out only becos i consulted with other vets afterward)
same vet who keep increasing Belle's insulin dosage to 8 units a day.
julie & punkin (ga)
Member Since 2011
Regarding your question from yesterday about me calling the tight reg protocol "more flexible" - Chris explained what I was thinking. It's more flexible because you can increase the dose as often as 3 days, depending on the cat's blood sugar tests. With SLGS you have to wait an entire week to increase the dose. However, it sounds like your circumstances would make it really hard to get Belle off of dry food, so SLGS is your only option.
If you can switch to the Young Again Zero Carb that would help with the blood sugar control and might lower his dose. I don't know how it is for kidney issues, however. Diabetes is very hard on the kidneys, so many of our cats here have kidney issues. Water is one of the best things you can give for kidney issues, and dry food is so very, well, dry. That's one of the benefits of canned food - it's higher in moisture, which helps a cat's urinary tract.
Fancy Feast is very high in phosphorus - like some of the highest foods on the phosphorus list, so I'd steer clear of it. I looked at the list on catinfo.org that included phosphorus values - there were perhaps 10 brands/flavors that were both low carb and phosphorus less than 200 mg. I went to 4 stores near me with that list, got a can or two of each kind that were both under 10% carbs and under 200 mgs and brought them home for punkin to try. The ones he liked, I bought more of.
It's so hard to lose our little furry friends. You have my deepest sympathy for your loss. Like Tricia, i think that cats hide it well when they aren't feeling good, or are in pain. Don't blame yourself. We all do the best we can, given the circumstances of our lives.
Sounds like you need a different vet. I hope you can find someone you trust.
If you can switch to the Young Again Zero Carb that would help with the blood sugar control and might lower his dose. I don't know how it is for kidney issues, however. Diabetes is very hard on the kidneys, so many of our cats here have kidney issues. Water is one of the best things you can give for kidney issues, and dry food is so very, well, dry. That's one of the benefits of canned food - it's higher in moisture, which helps a cat's urinary tract.
Fancy Feast is very high in phosphorus - like some of the highest foods on the phosphorus list, so I'd steer clear of it. I looked at the list on catinfo.org that included phosphorus values - there were perhaps 10 brands/flavors that were both low carb and phosphorus less than 200 mg. I went to 4 stores near me with that list, got a can or two of each kind that were both under 10% carbs and under 200 mgs and brought them home for punkin to try. The ones he liked, I bought more of.
It's so hard to lose our little furry friends. You have my deepest sympathy for your loss. Like Tricia, i think that cats hide it well when they aren't feeling good, or are in pain. Don't blame yourself. We all do the best we can, given the circumstances of our lives.
Sounds like you need a different vet. I hope you can find someone you trust.
Chris & China (GA)
Member Since 2013
Helena....Wendy gave you some good low carb treat choices but if you want to look for some others, here's a List of Low Carb Treats
Hope you can find something Belle really loves!!
It also sounds like you're using the Neosporin cream....you need to use the ointment...the cream just soaks in and lets the blood soak into the fur too....when you use the ointment, it's like oil and water...the blood will "bead up" on top of the ointment and make it easier to get a sample
Hope you can find something Belle really loves!!
It also sounds like you're using the Neosporin cream....you need to use the ointment...the cream just soaks in and lets the blood soak into the fur too....when you use the ointment, it's like oil and water...the blood will "bead up" on top of the ointment and make it easier to get a sample
Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey
Member Since 2011
I think Pet Food Express has Weruva, Tiki Cat and BFF, all good choices. There's one in Sacramento, but I've only been there a few times.
Unfortunately, every profession has it's bad apples. There are a lot of wonderful vets out there. If you were closer to Sac, I'd recommend mine, but she's all the way in Antelope. I drive over an hour each way just to see her.
Unfortunately, every profession has it's bad apples. There are a lot of wonderful vets out there. If you were closer to Sac, I'd recommend mine, but she's all the way in Antelope. I drive over an hour each way just to see her.
icesnow
Member Since 2015
@Tricia & Cinco
i know a good vet in Los Altos, Dr. Jane Johnson, but she was far, and i didn't think of her at first.
but then it was too late, since the vet (Lori Dabaco @ Eden Vet in Castro Valley, CA) insisted on hospitalizing my cat (but didn't give her the needed medication for a whole week), so to kept me from being able to take her to another vet. I asked everyday to take her home, but they won't release her. She was eating on her own at home the morning before being hospitalizing, but i saw her condition getting worse day by day there, and she was badly neglected there (even when i was there, and must be worse when i was not there), plus they are not 24 hrs, there are 14 hours/day she is alone by herself there. she must be so scared being there... I feel so bad i actually let this happen to her... and then losing her... and with her not being with me for the whole week before she passed... she must really wanted to be home with me... i can never forgive myself...
when i talk to Dr. Johnson afterward, she also questioned why they hospitalize her, when she was eating on her own at home, (and was not eating when being hospitalized), and also not giving her the needed medication for the whole week! She could have still be by my side purring if I had went to Dr. Johnson instead.
i know a good vet in Los Altos, Dr. Jane Johnson, but she was far, and i didn't think of her at first.
but then it was too late, since the vet (Lori Dabaco @ Eden Vet in Castro Valley, CA) insisted on hospitalizing my cat (but didn't give her the needed medication for a whole week), so to kept me from being able to take her to another vet. I asked everyday to take her home, but they won't release her. She was eating on her own at home the morning before being hospitalizing, but i saw her condition getting worse day by day there, and she was badly neglected there (even when i was there, and must be worse when i was not there), plus they are not 24 hrs, there are 14 hours/day she is alone by herself there. she must be so scared being there... I feel so bad i actually let this happen to her... and then losing her... and with her not being with me for the whole week before she passed... she must really wanted to be home with me... i can never forgive myself...
when i talk to Dr. Johnson afterward, she also questioned why they hospitalize her, when she was eating on her own at home, (and was not eating when being hospitalized), and also not giving her the needed medication for the whole week! She could have still be by my side purring if I had went to Dr. Johnson instead.
Chris & China (GA)
Member Since 2013
So sorry to hear that you had such an unprofessional vet treating your other baby....IF you happen to ever run across that kind of problem again, as long as you can pay the bill, the vet can not hold your animal against your wishes. If you're concerned with the treatment any of your animals is getting, pay the bill and take them somewhere else
Of course hindsight is 20/20 too....I know all of us have wished we'd done something different with at least one animal in our lifetimes....no matter what, they're all destined to die before we do
icesnow
Member Since 2015
i had paid the bill, i was paying along the way, and it was already way higher than the estimate... and they won't release her becos they wanted to make more money on her. The vet keeps telling me, that "she can't go home, she is too week to go home, she's just being kept alive by our set up here, it's against medical advice,..." all BS... and when i was waiting to bring her home, by the time they were closing, no one got her prepare, and then they said: "oh, we can't release her tonite, everyone have left..." that happened at least 2 nights. and they made her sicker and sicker there.
another thing is, she kept her since monday cos their ultrasound specialist doesn;t come in until friday, and they knew i would bring her elsewhere for ultrasound, which she should not wait a whole week to get that done!
I asked at least a few other vets afterward, they all said she should not even have to be hospitalize in the first place. She was well eating on her own, the morning b4 being kept there.
i don't want her to suffer, and she has to suffer there... even if she was not to make it, she could be comfortably at home, by my side, instead of being neglected there, then scared and alone at night there. we could have had that one week extra time together.
another thing is, she kept her since monday cos their ultrasound specialist doesn;t come in until friday, and they knew i would bring her elsewhere for ultrasound, which she should not wait a whole week to get that done!
I asked at least a few other vets afterward, they all said she should not even have to be hospitalize in the first place. She was well eating on her own, the morning b4 being kept there.
i don't want her to suffer, and she has to suffer there... even if she was not to make it, she could be comfortably at home, by my side, instead of being neglected there, then scared and alone at night there. we could have had that one week extra time together.
Chris & China (GA)
Member Since 2013
Not a bad PMPS to start with!!
If you can, I'd try to get a +2 before going to bed...just to see if he might have plans to do something funny later tonight
If you can, I'd try to get a +2 before going to bed...just to see if he might have plans to do something funny later tonight
icesnow
Member Since 2015
tested again +2 @ 1215am, his BG 191
today was almost a full curve
AMPS was ok, but he's now putting up with a fight everytime we do the blood test
i will probably do less testing the next 2 days, so he would be less grumpy, get ready for full curve on thursday
today was almost a full curve
AMPS was ok, but he's now putting up with a fight everytime we do the blood test
i will probably do less testing the next 2 days, so he would be less grumpy, get ready for full curve on thursday
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