11/27 Atlas PMps 367, +10 197

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Beth & Atlas

Member Since 2010
Yesterday's Condo: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30716

Paws, Purrs, Poops, and all Piled back into their beds and bankies. 'Cept for me...had to run off and deal with the petsit kids! Stayed a little longer and let them tucker themselves out in the great room running around. :lol:
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238

Morning all! Atlas, that is a much better number than that unmentionable one you had the other night. Good job - now be cool and find the blues, maybe surf there for a bit.

nice job with the petsit kids. Sounds like fun actually. Do you have them much longer?
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238

Michelle and Mannie said:
nice job with the petsit kids. Sounds like fun actually. Do you have them much longer?
Click to expand...


I am scheduled to visit them twice a day through Sunday evening. They are pretty darn good little guys too. Very, very friendly...no hidey cats there. I think my condo on Thursday has pictures of them posted. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=30644

Big ole fancy place with rod iron fence, electronic gate, big fishing size pond in front on a few acres of land. There's a llama farm and goat farm on the same road too.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238

The petsit kitties are adorable!

Much better start for today. Depending on how this cycle goes, you may have room for a dosecrease.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70

OOOps....down to 70 ....

Just did lunch and did some more lunch...another flippin' bounce in response on the way I'm sure. I swear I am believing this is chronic rebound...

I am very tempted to start all over at about 1.5u
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60

Feed some sweet stuff or ....wait since he did get two medallions of rabbit a half hour ago?
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70

Can you give him a bit of gravy? Then retest in 30.

Beth, I understand your frustration, his numbers have been pretty erratic. But I do think he's bouncing, and cutting the dose back drastically probably isn't going to help, IMO. Then his numbers will just be higher overall. I don't see chronic rebound in his SS, he doesn't have the high flat numbers puncuated by steep drops. He's a very bouncy kitty though!

What is his feeding schedule? I know you've had some liquipoo issues, and some diet changes along the way...is his stool formed consistently now?

BTW, I looked back at Attie's history a bit, you have done a MARVELOUS job with him!!
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60

He is supposed to get 4-5 medallions a day. I break those up into the 5 feeding compartments with the timer set to rotate every 3 hours.

The pattern I am seeing is a cycle like today...where he will drop out down to a docrease if I don't intervene. Then spend 24-36 hours in high rebound numbers.

No change in dose and bam down to the basement again.

And what makes this all pretty darn freaking is if you look at 11/15 hours 4 & 5. He did a masterful deep dive and recovery. If I had not been home I might not have "caught it."

Look at 11/19 +6,7,8.... Another quick dive and recovery?

Lot's of stuff I've read indicates that this is exactly the pattern that sets up for chronic rebound.

Attie isn't going to be a remission candidate, I would just like to get him stable somewhat. I'd be very happy in yellow and blues. (and it is in those numbers he is most playful and happy it seems. Greens and pinks funks him way out?)

At this point dropping back to a lower dose or spending another week with 2 "nice cycles" and 12 in rebound ...what's the difference?
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167

And so the bounce is underway :YMSIGH:

He had two finger dips of karo a half hour ago...

So I am thinking tonight I'll shoot the 2.5s and in the morning drop back to...1.5 or 2.0?
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167

I understand what you're saying, Beth..that's why I suggested a bit of gravy at 60...trying to keep him from diving into the 40s..I saw that data. He does love to dive sharply!

Let's see where he's at in an hour, ok?
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167

Beth --

Are you feeding past nadir? If so, you might want to consider front loading Atlas' food at the beginning of the cycle and not feeding after +6. The food late in the cycle may accentuate the rise since the Lantus is less active later in the cycle.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167

Sienne and Gabby said:
Beth --

Are you feeding past nadir? If so, you might want to consider front loading Atlas' food at the beginning of the cycle and not feeding after +6. The food late in the cycle may accentuate the rise since the Lantus is less active later in the cycle.
Click to expand...


We feed a full medallion for breffis.

Mid morning snack is half a medallion

Lunch is a full medallion (this would be about an hour before +6) since Attie pulls these stunt either at mid-cycle or back end of they cycle I thought to try a full lunch feeding? Today he got 2 medallions because he was lowish...and he still continued to drop out. So we added two finger dips of karo... Not sure, but highly doubt the karo caused the 100 or so spike up.

Afternoon snack is half a medallion

Dinner Whole Medallion

Bedtime snack is half

Midnight snack is whole

3am is half
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167

Yes, that's what I was thinking too, Sienne. That's why I asked about the feeding schedule. You might find that feeding PS, +1,+2,+3 and maybe a small snack at +6 might help prevent his scuba diving, too. I adjusted my schedule to PS, +2, +3, +4 and snack at +6 because Tinkles dives a little later than many cats...Attie might do well with that schedule.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167, +7 227

Well, it looks like the bounce is well underway.

Changing the feeding around isn't a big deal. We can certainly try it.

Now, what about dose? Do we agree to drop back to 2.0u? Or start over?
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167, +7 227

Addendum: These sharp dives...

he even did that on Humilin N.

We switched to Lantus thinking we could make those stop. Just a factoid you might not be aware of.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167, +7 227

Thanks for the +7 test, wanted to make sure it wasn't a karo spike...I figured he was bouncing too.

The feeding schedule could make a big difference for Attie. Tinkles was a big diver too.

I would shoot the S2.5u for tonight, due to the bounce. Beyond that...let me look again at his SS.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167, +7 227

Just another FYi one medallion is 1.0 oz. A half medallion is 0.5oz.

These sharp dives are what got him worked down from 8u BID. So I guess that is why when I am seeing them now every few days...I think it is rebound and I missed his good dose by a hair.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238

Sienne and Gabby said:
The petsit kitties are adorable!

Much better start for today. Depending on how this cycle goes, you may have room for a dosecrease.
Click to expand...

Yes the kids are adorable. Well I will be out the door here shortly to go give them their evening feeding and romp! Guess I won't be worrying about Atlas...
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60, +6.5 167, +7 227

Laurie and Mr Tinkles said:
Thanks for the +7 test, wanted to make sure it wasn't a karo spike...I figured he was bouncing too.

The feeding schedule could make a big difference for Attie. Tinkles was a big diver too.

I would shoot the S2.5u for tonight, due to the bounce. Beyond that...let me look again at his SS.
Click to expand...


Thanks for taking another look. Maybe with pointing out what I think I am seeing we can figure him out and get things more stable.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60

Blue said:
He is supposed to get 4-5 medallions a day. I break those up into the 5 feeding compartments with the timer set to rotate every 3 hours.

The pattern I am seeing is a cycle like today...where he will drop out down to a docrease if I don't intervene. Then spend 24-36 hours in high rebound numbers.

No change in dose and bam down to the basement again.

And what makes this all pretty darn freaking is if you look at 11/15 hours 4 & 5. He did a masterful deep dive and recovery. If I had not been home I might not have "caught it."

Look at 11/19 +6,7,8.... Another quick dive and recovery?

Lot's of stuff I've read indicates that this is exactly the pattern that sets up for chronic rebound.

Attie isn't going to be a remission candidate, I would just like to get him stable somewhat. I'd be very happy in yellow and blues. (and it is in those numbers he is most playful and happy it seems. Greens and pinks funks him way out?)

At this point dropping back to a lower dose or spending another week with 2 "nice cycles" and 12 in rebound ...what's the difference?
Click to expand...

Ok, I've looked again at Attie's SS, and what I see is that if you would be happy with him in yellows and blues, this dose is far better than the 1.5u dose. When he was on 1.50u, he was in reds and pinks most of the time. He spends a lot more time in yellows and blues on the 2.25u-2.50u dose range, less time in pink and red. That's not my opinion, that's what the SS shows.

What I consider "chronic rebound" is very different than bouncing...and I don't see chronic rebound here. I do understand your concern with the bouncing....NOBODY likes bouncing! I've been watching Tinkles bounce for 6 months, and I don't like it either! But it's part of the sugar dance...they bounce until they don't bounce anymore. There's very little you can do to stop the bouncing...mostly it's a matter of waiting for the liver to decide to stop panicking, and the only way to do that is to keep showing the liver the lower numbers until it stops reacting. I have tried preventing the numbers from dropping too low in an effort to prevent the bouncing, and it has not been very effective. I can *sometimes* prevent a bounce by keeping him above 60....but often he ends up bouncing from higher numbers within a cycle or two.

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that bounces are not only caused by dropping too low, they are also caused by dropping too fast. The suggestion about changing the feeding schedule is aimed directly at slowing the drop, which could help to eliminate some bouncing. Eliminating the late cycle feedings could also help to keep his PS numbers lower. That could help flatten out his cycles.

I would not decrease his dose, unless he earns the reduction. I would try the PS, +1, +2, and +3 feeding schedule, with a small snack at +6 if you want. Just split his normal amount of food among those feedings, AM & PM, and give that a try. You may be surprised at how much that helps Attie.

Of course, Attie is your cat, you hold the syringe. It's ultimately your decision, Beth.
 
Re: 11/27 Atlas Amps 238, +5.5 70, +6 60

Laurie and Mr Tinkles said:
Blue said:
The pattern I am seeing is a cycle like today...where he will drop out down to a docrease if I don't intervene. Then spend 24-36 hours in high rebound numbers.

No change in dose and bam down to the basement again.

And what makes this all pretty darn freaking is if you look at 11/15 hours 4 & 5. He did a masterful deep dive and recovery. If I had not been home I might not have "caught it."

Look at 11/19 +6,7,8.... Another quick dive and recovery?

Lot's of stuff I've read indicates that this is exactly the pattern that sets up for chronic rebound.

At this point dropping back to a lower dose or spending another week with 2 "nice cycles" and 12 in rebound ...what's the difference?
Click to expand...

Ok, I've looked again at Attie's SS, and what I see is that if you would be happy with him in yellows and blues, this dose is far better than the 1.5u dose. When he was on 1.50u, he was in reds and pinks most of the time. He spends a lot more time in yellows and blues on the 2.25u-2.50u dose range, less time in pink and red. That's not my opinion, that's what the SS shows.

What I consider "chronic rebound" is very different than bouncing...and I don't see chronic rebound here. I do understand your concern with the bouncing....NOBODY likes bouncing! I've been watching Tinkles bounce for 6 months, and I don't like it either! I can *sometimes* prevent a bounce by keeping him above 60....but often he ends up bouncing from higher numbers within a cycle or two.

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that bounces are not only caused by dropping too low, they are also caused by dropping too fast. The suggestion about changing the feeding schedule is aimed directly at slowing the drop, which could help to eliminate some bouncing. Eliminating the late cycle feedings could also help to keep his PS numbers lower. That could help flatten out his cycles.

I would not decrease his dose, unless he earns the reduction. I would try the PS, +1, +2, and +3 feeding schedule, with a small snack at +6 if you want. Just split his normal amount of food among those feedings, AM & PM, and give that a try. You may be surprised at how much that helps Attie.

Of course, Attie is your cat, you hold the syringe. It's ultimately your decision, Beth.
Click to expand...

Well, I changed the feeding cycle on the machine. I'll have to readjust it again ...I did 2,4,6...last night. When I got up this morning Attie had only eaten 2,4 and not his 6. Yet, he was in my bedroom pawing and nipping away at me like he was "low" or had not been fed. Ugh....So I had my 5am wake-up call.

One thing that you have to keep in mind is that bounces are not only caused by dropping too low, they are also caused by dropping too fast. The suggestion about changing the feeding schedule is aimed directly at slowing the drop, which could help to eliminate some bouncing.
Click to expand...

When does a Somogyi Rebound happen?
If an animal experiences hypoglycemia,<b> or if the blood glucose drops drops too quickly,</b> the body tries to protect itself using the Somogyi response and the result is elevated blood glucose, or hyperglycemia. http://www.indulgedfurries.com/petdiabetes/somogyi.htm


Well, there are like 2 schools of thought going on, plus my own. I believe there is a solution within all these opinions. I'm just not quite sure what it will be at this point. In my head and in my reading there is a discussion regarding these sudden "hidden" drops. And they can even be missed at vet offices causing an unnecessary increase in dosage. Lots of times Attie they go low,low (not fed) and sometimes...not so low (fed). Now, I have the dumb impression that if I am having to "feed the drop" to prevent a below 40 event...isn't that the same as having one?

I have gone round and round with this issue. And while I understand the Tilly protocol to ignore the panicky liver and keep increasing...is there ever a time where the panicky liver isn't a panicky liver? I agree with you Laurie that the two things we call panicky liver vs. rebound are not quite the same thing. And that is a discussion I had some time ago.

Based on the protocol I should be increasing his dose...and I know darn well he will race to the bottom of the tank...
 
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