11/26 Papaya PMPS=333 +5=166 making advice public

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Amy & Papaya (GA)

Member Since 2012
Yesterday

Last night Papaya found an ugly bounce somewhere so we got to go to bed early. She was getting so close to needing a reduction on this dose and then things just seemed to crumble :evil:

She was feeling perky this morning, though! When she came out to the kitchen for breakfast, she was doing long-cat-belly-up stretches near the fridge, which led her to believe that there was something under the fridge that was suspicious. She stretched her paws out to bat at it, and managed to hook a claw on a snap-on piece that fits under the door, pulling it off neatly with one yank of the paw. She was a bit surprised at her effectiveness (or maybe afraid she'd released whatever monster was under there?) and retreated to the other side of the kitchen while I got breakfast ready! :lol: She waited for her shot right in the kitchen today, too, then went back to bed. Having been a bit snappy about her shot recently, I was impressed she stuck around this time to wait for it!

Have a great day, everyone.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55

Slowly. Going. Crazy. Am. I. . . .

Green again! I fed Papaya when I got the 55, then found that trying to leave food out for her was like putting it in front of a vaccuum cleaner :lol: I put down what I was planning to leave out, and stopped to put on socks before I left for work. Meanwhile ninja cat slid out from under the quilt and went to work on the food. She completely cleaned the plate - and I had left down what I thought would be PLENTY. So I had to put another portion down so that she wouldn't be left with an empty plate all day. She was sitting there looking at it when I left - not wanting to go under the quilt yet but at least too full to eat that too right now!
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55

In the spirit of fairness, since I suggested Jess' advice to Pam should be posted for all (and Jess asked if she should also post my PM), I am posting what I PMed to Jess the other day to explain why I give Papaya MC, after my repeated attempts to explain it in my condo did not seem to be noticed. I rarely PM anybody and this certainly wasn't dosing advice, just an explanation of how MY cat is different.

Below that I am posting the full text of Jess' PMs back to me.

Let's keep it all public so everyone can learn :-D

MY PM:
Jess, I replied at length to you in one of my other condos where you advocated using only low or zero carb food but perhaps you didn't get a chance to read it, since you seem to still be on the same track with the carbs by your comment in my condo today.

You haven't been dealing with feline diabetes for very long - I remember helping you with some of the basic stuff when you joined a few months ago - but you have probably noticed that those of us who have often say "every cat is different". As I explained last time, the reason Papaya goes high is because she drops quickly. She is fed 9% carbs as her REGULAR LOW CARB FOOD FOR THIS REASON. This was after much discussion with experienced caregivers who have been here even longer than I have. We find she does better with slightly more carbs to help prevent the quick drops which result in a bounce. She is not at 590 today because she got 14% carbs, so please stop saying that in her condo. She is at 590 because she dropped quickly into green and her body overreacts. I probably should have given her the 14% EARLIER to prevent the drop which results in the bounce.

Yes, cat's livers build the carbs they need so a healthy cat in a normal situation is fine with only protein. But giving a cat exogenous insulin is not a "normal" situation because it is not being supplied as needed by the cat's own body, so the effect can be too much and too sudden. Carbs are absorbed immediately into the bloodstream, even through the mucous membranes of the mouth, which is why the emergency guidelines for a cat that has very low numbers is to rub karo on their gums . . . not give them a pound of bacon for their liver to convert.

It's nice you are starting to feel that you have learned enough over the last few months to be confident about telling others how to handle their cats, but it is very important to understand the history of the cat and WHY the caretaker is handling them the way they are before you do so, especially because not everyone reading these condos gets involved in discussions. Some just lurk, and if they see someone posting "oh, you shouldn't be giving MC or HC food when your cat is in low numbers" they don't know what your level of experience is or how it applies to some cats but not others, and might just take it as the gospel truth. Then maybe next time their cat is low, they will just give LC and it will be very dangerous.

I appreciate your visiting Papaya's condo and offering support, but please take the time to follow the history of the cat and the caretaker. A great way to do this is by asking questions, like "I notice you break out the higher carb pretty early with Papaya - what is the reasoning behind that?" Then you will learn more about the different situations that arise with feline diabetes and be in a better position as you gain experience to help people who may be newer than you on the board.

Thanks,
Amy & Papaya

Jess' PMs to me in response:

Amy-

Your opinion is just that - your opinion. It is based on the opinions of people on this site who are not medical doctors, medically trained, or even students of feline physiology. I don't have a personal opinion because I am technically a "newbie." However, I haven't yet heard an argument for high-carb diets (or even high-carb doses for low BG numbers) from anyone on FDMB that makes logical sense based on cat physiology. If you know a vet expert who agrees with your protocol, I would love to hear from them. Perhaps they can give a medical justification for the use of high-carb foods. So far, I haven't found a vet expert who supports that protocol.

The following vet info may be helpful in clarifying....
Hypoglycemia is usually caused by an overdose of insulin. Cats on the tight regulation protocol do not typically have clinical hypo. Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins explains: “Clinical Hypo can happen at many different levels of blood glucose, sometimes a cat will have these signs at levels that are not that low, say 70 (3.8 mmol/L), and other cats show absolutely no signs whatsoever at blood glucose levels as low as 20(1.2 mmol/L)! Therefore, the absolute number is not the whole story, not by a long shot. The cat’s liver is just as important to the control of blood glucose as the pancreas is. The liver and pancreas work together, with the pancreas keeping the blood glucose from going too high and the liver keeping the blood glucose from going too low. The cat on high carbohydrate foods loses both its normal liver function and its normal pancreatic function. This loss of normal liver function is what causes the signs of hypoglycemia. When a diabetic cat is consuming low carb foods instead of high carb foods, the liver resumes its ability to make enough glucose to meet the brain’s needs, and signs of clinical hypo DO NOT OCCUR. Low carbohydrate-fed cats have tremendous resistance to hypo signs because their livers work to keep this problem from occurring..”

Yes, I have not been on the website long here and I didn't know anything about diabetic cats before I started four moths ago. BUT, I am a member of Mensa and I have been doing a great deal of my own research (FOR MONTHS). I have talked to a number of veterinary experts in the field (including people in Australia who have been doing YEARS of research on how to get diabetic cats into remission). I've been studying medical research papers (I have a master's degree in science and I know how to find peer-review journals on the subject). How may people on this site have studied feline physiology? How many have conducted actual medical studies of feline diabetic remission and how to achieve it? To be quite frank, the REAL medical experts in the field of feline diabetes (the actual veterinaries who set the remission protocols that are not properly followed here) believe that most of the folks on this site are completely ill-informed and harming their cats. They have said this to me directly. Just because some folks on FDMB have "more time under their belts" doesn't mean they know what they are doing. In the Middle Ages, there were "expert" bloodletters who cured people regularly by bloodletting, but we know now that those doctors were quacks.

As one intelligent person on FDMB said today, the goal is to have a well-regulated cat, not to "achieve a reduction." This FDMB member stated that the goal is to have your cat's blood sugar in the normal range of a healthy cat (70 - 130) most of the time. According to the vet experts, that is correct! I daresay that most people on FDMB are failing at this task. Most spreadsheets here have 300's+ numbers with maybe one or two random days of good numbers over the course of years. Those numbers do not reflect the numbers of well-regulated cats.

That said, I believe the FDMB site is helpful for owners in the early stages of diagnosis. It is important to be guided through the process of home testing, putting together a spreadsheet, measuring doses, and changing a cat's diet. These are all good things. But the goal of all proper diabetic cat protocols is being well-regulated, which is possible for most cats if the diet is proper and the insulin is adjusted by home testing. It is extremely rare for any cat to go into remission if their blood sugar doesn't stay in the normal range for long periods of time. Remission is impossible for most people on this site with cats that have roller coaster BG's from 500 to 40 on a daily basis. To the vet experts, this is considered poor regulation.

It's fine if you disagree and you want to keep your cat on the high-carb diet (9% is high carb according to the experts). I just don't see how anyone can look at your spreadsheet and think that your cat is well-regulated. Papaya has been on insulin for over one year and her BG has never stayed in the normal range of a healthy cat for one full day (except maybe two or three random days over the course of one year). How is this considered proper regulation? Most people on the site have spreadsheets like yours, so everyone thinks it is normal. According to the vet experts, roller-coaster numbers like that are absolutely not normal and not healthy for the cats. But that is not my opinion. Again, if you can find someone on FDMB who is a vet expert that can explain why roller-coaster spreadsheets and high-carb treatments are normal and healthy, I would love to hear from them! I would be happy to support your protocol with medical research, if there is any!

My postings on this site are not meant to criticize anyone but merely to offer an different viewpoint for those people who are frustrated that they can't keep their cat's BG in a healthy range after trying for years. If I had been giving insulin for over one year and my cat was still hitting the 500's, I would try something different, but that's just me. In my case, I did the research, followed the vet expert protocol not taught here, and my cat never hit 200 again (nor did he ever go below 70 except for 2-3 times). A few months later, he is now in his OTJ trial and doing great. Perhaps my success story will help others. But I will stop posting on your page if that makes you feel better.

Best wishes,
Jessica

P.S. Never once did I state that someone should give a cat one pound of bacon for their liver to convert protein glucose. It is clear to me from your statements about feline livers that you don't understand the physiology. A cat's liver does not "build" carbs. Cat livers turn protein to glycogen which becomes glucose in the blood stream. When you give a cat carbohydrates, you are overriding the liver's natural ability to regulate low blood sugar (turning protein in to glycogen). When you introduce an unnaturally high-carb food to a cat, the liver will "turn off" (so to speak) and won't function at all. As long as you give high carbs, your cat's liver will never keep those low numbers from getting too low (so you will think you need to do it with carbs, which sets the whole rollercoaster cycle in motion again). By the way, you also said, "carbs are absorbed immediately into the bloodstream" but just today you gave high carbs and your cat's blood sugar continued to slide down. That is a symptom of a sleeping liver combined with too much insulin.

Yes, injecting insulin is unnatural, but I know from experience and also the PAGES OF RESEARCH conducted by vet experts that even cats on insulin don't experience hypoglycemia if you keep an eye on them and don't give high carbs. The liver needs a chance to work and most people on this forum never give their cats' livers a chance.
Jess and Mr. Cat

Jess' PM #2:

Hi Amy-

Since Papaya is "bouncing" often, this article may help....

Somogyi Effect (Rebound)

When a diabetic experiences hypoglycemia, the body tries to compensate. While it generally doesn't have to, the liver is capable of producing glucose. The "signal" is glucagon, produced in the body in response to low blood sugar. The length of time it keeps putting out glucose is probably tied to the severity and/or duration of the hypoglycemia (or the size of the glucagon injection), but it can last 72 hours. The liver will generally kick in when BG levels get below 60, but in some it may happen at a higher level.

True Somogyi effect is quite rare in cats. Since they are obligate carnivores, their liver enzymes and glucose production are different than that of humans and dogs.

Any hypoglycemic episode, whether or not you observed it, may be followed by some degree of rebound for some unknown length of time. It will show up as BG spikes happening before the insulin tails off, if you're doing blood tests. If you're using dipsticks, you'll see a high reading at a time when you're not even supposed to see traces. The spikes are almost as bad for the cat's long term health as sustained high BG levels, so they should be stopped. Besides the other things damaged by high blood glucose, the poor old liver gets extra stress, and the long-suffering kidneys are thrown into overdrive again.

Unfortunately, the instinct is to increase insulin when we see high BG levels. If they are caused by rebound, the answer is to decrease insulin.

So how do you know whether to give more insulin or less? First you decide whether or not there is any possibility that hypoglycemia is occurring -- if the cat is unregulated and never has a BG reading below 200, you're probably not seeing rebound.

If hypoglycemia is an unconfirmed possibility, simply decrease the insulin by 20% for three days and see if the spikes disappear. Since food causes blood glucose to rise, it's impossible to differentiate a Somogyi spike from a post-peak food spike -- another argument in favor of restricted feeding.

-From http://www.felinediabetes.com/dummies.htm
Jess and Mr. Cat
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55

Crikey. I'm a member of Mensa too, but I was *not* versed in Feline Diabetes when I first arrived here and was happy to listen to those here who are. Like many, if I had listened to my vet, my cat would have been in BIG trouble.

MJ
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Dr. Hodgkins experience is with PZI. She has a similar board to the one here that was very active at one time. She attempted to extend her approach to tight regulation (based on PZI) to Lantus. Cats died. They died for exactly the reason that BG numbers dropped and she advised people to not intervene with HC food. The Tight Regulation Protocol that's used here is the only protocol for Lantus that has been published in a leading veterinary journal by Kirsten Roomp and Jacqui Rand. We do not follow Hodgkin's guidelines. Her approach was not published in a peer-reviewed journal. One of the moderators of this board is periodically in touch with Kirsten Roomp (who moderates the German counterpart of this Board).

Glucose is necessary for life. An insufficient amount of glucose to end organs including the brain, is not a good thing and becomes a life threatening situation. If you choose to not give your cat HC when numbers are low, that is your decision. Please do not advise others to do the same. I doubt there is a vet or a physician who would tell you to not give something with carbs/simple sugar to a diabetic that is experiencing low numbers let alone symptomatic hypoglycemia. Most diabetic humans have candy or some glucose drink on their person to counteract such situations. It is a medical necessity and, IMHO, good common sense. Having dealt with both humans and cats that are experiencing low numbers and humans experiencing hypoglycemia, you really don't want to encourage brain damage or organ failure. I am happy to provide you with authoritative references regarding the management of hypoglycemia. In the interim, this is from my vet's practice. Please refer to the section on hypoglycemia and note that they recommend intervening with Karo or something similar.

I'm thrilled you're a member of Mensa. I have no doubt that are also other people here with a similar credential. There are also any number of people here who are MDs, attorneys, PhDs, individuals with master's degrees in science, literature, teaching, etc., or who are smart and just plain curious and devoted to their cat who likewise do their research. There are some of us who have access to medical and veterinary libraries, who not only can read the literature but who also can differentiate good from bad science. If we are such "quacks," how is it that hundreds of cats have gone into remission as a result of our Middle Age bloodletting approach?

Your inexperience is evident when you note that Amy is feeding HC with 9% food. Again, read threads from new members. They are often advised to feed Science Diet M/D. It is way higher than 9% and is a prescription diabetes diet. It is a vet who is telling their client to feed HC food. So much for the "experts." Ask instead, how many people arrive here with diet advice from their vet and are gently encouraged to switch to LC, preferably canned, food?

As far as Somogyi, do your research. The original paper was published in 1938 in a less than illustrious journal. The findings from the original research hae never been replicated and it has taken on the aura of urban legend (IMHO). Further, there is no research on chronic Somogyi rebound in cats on Lantus. There have been several discussions on this topic. I've linked a thread from Marje/Gracie's condo with one such discussion. The answer to a bounce is not to decrease insulin. All you do is lose time and keep the cat in high numbers. Again, there have been many, many discussions on this topic.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Putting on my moderator hat:

Advising using the FDMB PM system is prohibited in the Terms of Use. Please keep your dosing advice public, or keep it off FDMB altogether.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

I'm sorry, but as soon as someone drops the "MENSA" bomb into the conversation, they've lost the argument. Yippee. You're a genius. I would rather get my advice from a self-educated caregiver with years of actual hands-on experience than from someone with a plaque on the living room wall that feels a need to show it off to justify their "expertise".

The safe treatment of the disease is all that really matters. If you choose to put your cat's life at risk by betting on the liver saving him or her from a coma, that's your business. I'd rather have a cat on insulin for the rest of his life, regardless of "numbers", than to come home and find my cat dead because I lost the bet that the liver would save him from my expert opinion.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Papaya is definitely one of the primest examples of "ECID" that we have. The beautiful thing about FDMB is that, through the expertise and pooled knowledge of many very experienced caregivers, we are able to custom tailor treatment for each individual cat, even if that means the cat is not "ideally" regulated 24/7. Some cats just don't regulate...unfortunately FD and its treatment is not a "one size fits all" situation. It's the nature of the FD beast, so by learning the cats quirks and nuances, the caregiver is able to treat them as ideally as possible given their unique circumstances. That is far better than trying to shoehorn the individual into a formula that just doesn't fit.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Thank you Carl. I was going to quote a portion of your post, but quickly realized I would end up quoting every word. Everything you write makes me want to click a "favorite" button somewhere.

And thank you Amy.
Amy&TrixieCat said:
Papaya is definitely one of the primest examples of "ECID" that we have.
If Papaya was looking for a tatoo, that would be it :lol:
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Hello Amy - loved your story of Papaya and the refrigerator this morning. I can so see the look on her face when the bottom grill popped off. :lol: It's a favorite appliance here too. Surf safely today Papaya - those greens look pretty on you.

I do have to comment on the second part of your post as well. FIrst - I think you are doing a great job with Papaya. Having read your stories about how much better she is walking and now playing, I know she is feeling better too. Second, you are so right that ECID. Take my little acrocat for an example. She does have a working pancreas, it's the tumour secreting excess growth hormones that lead to her diabetes. Unlike a regular diabetic cat, food can make Neko's numbers go down as the pancreatic system goes into play. I have to use HC when she is low. I've tried a higher LC and it sent her into the 30's. I suspect her regular high protein LC (raw food) was a factor in last nights cliff dive. To summarize, in some cases HC is essential to bring a cat up. Advising otherwise without knowing the cat is very dangerous.

The first point from the sticky on Suggestions for Advice Givers:
Above all, do no harm. Be sure you are familiar with the particular cat's circumstances before giving food and dosing advice. Wrong advice on food and dose can have dire consequences for a cat's health. Don't give generic advice on these issues. Even something as beneficial-sounding as "Put your cat on a low-carbohydrate diet" can result in death if the cat is already getting insulin (yes, it has happened). If you do decide to suggest something risky, outline the potential risks and benefits for the recipient.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Thanks Wendy. Papaya removing that grill may also be a suggestion that I get out the vaccuum . . . lying on the floor to do the BG tests always gives a new perspective to what needs to be cleaned :lol:

I appreciate your example as well of ECID. It just doesn't makes sense to jump into a situation and tell a caregiver they should be doing things differently when you don't know why or how they arrived at the current plan.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

I have watched cats DIE on another forum because the caregiver would not give carbs in a hypo. It's not something I ever want to see again. FYI, Lantus hypo deaths can take a LONG time. I have also seen cats that went extremely low (20s) and did not bounce, and cats (especially acrocats) for whom low carb food sends the numbers LOWER instead of higher. So no, I don't trust low carb food in every situation.

I am at work and have not read all of the posts here. I do agree that there are not currently a lot of tightly regulated cats in LL. I also agree that there are people here who are following something only moderately resembling the published protocols, some for good reason and some probably not so much. I will even agree that not all of the decisions are well informed, and some I just don't get at all. Everyone is free to make his/her own treatment decisions.

I think it is also important to realize, though, that our methods are out there in writing for the whole world to see. Anyone can read the protocol (either the original or our version) and can follow it. If a cat is easy to regulate and falls right into place (or even OTJ), then the caregiver might not ever post here. By and large, the people who are posting are often the ones who are either brand new, or who have more challenging cats and feel that there is benefit to having additional eyes on their situation. Some cats are hard to regulate, period. Some cats *might* be able to be regulated, but there are other circumstances that make that impractical.

AND there is the issue that this is the Internet. The nature of the beast is that people are going to get conflicting information, and it can be hard for a newbie to sort out which bits of advice have more merit in their particular situation. That is why we feel it is important to have dosing advice offered publicly and subject to peer review.

Not a vet, not a scientist and have never felt a need to pay for MENSA, but I have studied a helluva lot of Lantus/Levemir spreadsheets in the past 5.5 years.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Hi Amy, I think I also fall into the category of having a hard to regulate kitty. I have spent hours trying to research and find a way to achieve regulation with her, as I know you have done. I truly believe it is not as simple as just feeding all LC food or no carb food....in the end we are still stuck with the hard to regulate rainbow kitties; no matter what new or different approach we try we seem to still have the same cat that responds to insulin in the same way. I will always use HC food or Karo syrup to bring up Ebby if she is in a dangerous low. My vet did not give me a ton of information to start, but this is one thing he stressed, "If Ebby shows any signs of hypoglycemia, rub some Karo syrup on her gums." Yes, I've often chosen to use HC food instead of Karo, but basically it is the same thing.

So, in my opinion, when we see a nice SS with all blue and green numbers it is not always indicative that the caregiver was in some way better or more knowledgable than those caregivers with cats that have bounced for years and are still getting into the 300's, 400's, and 500's. They are just different cats, and unfortunately we got stuck with a couple of the more difficult ones.

I've often thought about posting in my condo, " $5000.00 reward for information leading to the regulation and/or remission in Ebby." If someone could tell me do this, then this, and in two months you'll have regulation, I'd pay the $5000. So, are there any takers? Sadly, I just don't think it is this simple, but oh, how I wish it were. You're doing the best you can given Papaya's reaction to insulin. Keep up the good work Amy.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Thank you for posting my PM (and yours). You did send me a PM first - not sure why you didn't want anyone else to know your comments, but I responded to you according to how you contacted me. My intention was not to hide anything from anyone. I think it's great that there have been 155 views so far. The more people who read it, the better! This is a discussion forum, after all.
I hope that everyone can keep an open mind and not just take one person's opinion (or even a group opinion) as gospel truth. Staying open leads to new discoveries.
I truly wish everyone here the best, and their cats.

And, by the way, I have posted on many "newbie" pages that I DO NOT recommend low-carb and zero carb foods for BG's under 50 for inexperienced caregivers, especially if the caregiver has no experience with insulin, their cat's response to it, etc. I have said many times that the low-carb approach is for EXPERIENCED caregivers who know their cats and have tried low-carb foods at higher numbers with good response. The times I have recommended low-carb foods has been for folks who express frustration after years of erratic numbers and an inability to keep their cats regulated in a normal, healthy range. Why not try another approach if the one you are trying isn't working?
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

MelissaEbby said:
So, in my opinion, when we see a nice SS with all blue and green numbers it is not always indicative that the caregiver was in some way better or more knowledgable than those caregivers with cats that have bounced for years and are still getting into the 300's, 400's, and 500's. They are just different cats, and unfortunately we got stuck with a couple of the more difficult ones.

Thanks, Melissa. I liked Libby's point too that it's often the ones with the more challenging cats that are posting more here.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

It is the more challenging cat beans who post here.... for community support, for family support and others thoughts. There are many who come and go
quickly. There are many who lurk and never get very involved with others, and there are those of us who bond with each other.

It is so completely individual for each cat as to whether or not they are easy or more challenging.
I feel truly lucky to be one in remission.... but it isn't necessarily any thing I did. I take no credit.
I think I caught the diabetes early. I think that can be a huge factor. And Shadow barely had any signs other than the hair/dandruff/ and laying on the
floor all the time.... odd behavior.
She did drink more water but she didn't pee a lot.

Mine also never dropped low and needed intervention with syrup. But I was always ready.

There are also often other masked illnesses that are already present but still unknown so often with FD.
If only the only issues were diabetes.

Remission isn't forever. It is wonderful to have but I still have a diabetic cat. ( a diet controlled diabetic)
And my observation is that it gets more challenging the second or third time back.

I stay here for friends and to continue learning from everyone else's experiences just in case, I have new issues down the road.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

rhiannon and shadow said:
I stay here for friends and to continue learning from everyone else's experiences just in case, I have new issues down the road.
I'm glad you do, Rhiannon! :-D
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

I'm sorry, but I think you just proved the problem here with your last post
Jess and MrCat said:
not sure why you didn't want anyone else to know your comments,
. Amy sent you that PM stating exactly what she has written to you in open forum before and you just blatantly ignored. I know, because I read the posts that day as well. And also because it has happened on my own condo. Giving advice is great if it is meant to help, more than just for the end result of us feeling right. Advice givers that get their dues are those that actually read what one writes or says and comments on such things. They are caring, knowledgeable, open minded and have experience. Not those who skim through the highlights and regurgitate what knowledge they feel is correct, without actually having knowledge of the particular situations background. Please know your audience before advising them as to how to treat their loved ones. This is so dangerous. Please think about it.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Kim, etc.-
If you have comments for me, please post them on my condo. After today, I will no longer read other Lantus condos or comment unless someone decides to come after me again (not sure why the witch hunt, but if you all feel inspired to do so, its your issue). Amy was welcome to comment on my condo if she had something to say to me directly, but instead, she PM'd me so that she could reprimand me privately. Why you decided to defend her, I don't know. I was not attacking her, I was simply stating the opinions of vet experts. I don't have opinions, I am only expressing another viewpoint. It seems that if I disagree with anything anyone says here, I am made out to be the idiot, or the "inexperienced" person, or just "lucky" with an easy cat who stayed in blues and greens. No one has asked me how many hours I have spent researching insulin protocols, learning from many different experts, etc. If everyone is so confident in their viewpoint, why did my comments stir up so much controversy? Why did everyone feel the need to defend their opinions so vehemently? The lady doth protest too much, methinks (Shakespeare).
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

I don't know that everyone is disagreeing with everything you said.

Among other things, I posted:

I do agree that there are not currently a lot of tightly regulated cats in LL. I also agree that there are people here who are following something only moderately resembling the published protocols, some for good reason and some probably not so much. I will even agree that not all of the decisions are well informed, and some I just don't get at all. Everyone is free to make his/her own treatment decisions.
I don't think you are off base in a lot of what you said about the board. I'm not here as much as I used to be, and sometimes I don't recognize the principles that I used to work hard to teach. The written modifications we have made to the original protocol are backed by plenty of anecdotal evidence: Updated Lantus/Levemir Kitties. As far as day-to-day application, some cats require deviation from the protocols. Some people make good decisions about those deviations, some don't. So IMHO those observations have validity.

The thing about cats on low carb diets not having hypos, I'll disagree vehemently with that because I know differently. It's not personal. I understand where that belief came from. I also know it is hard to find proof to the contrary because threads on that other board had a way of vanishing without a trace. I have not visited there in years because I couldn't stomach it anymore, so I do not know if that is still the case.

The beautiful thing about an open board is that people post opinions, then other people post their opinions, whether they agree or disagree with the first poster. Just keep it public so that can happen the way it should. ;-)

eta: I will add that maybe it's wrong, but I tend to take published research with a grain of salt. Studies have their place, for sure, but they are not perfect. Years ago, when my best friend was doing her post-doc at one of THE premier research universities in the US, she would call me crying that she had been TOLD what her research needed to prove. They had to keep working until they had enough data to prove what they were supposed to prove. For me, research is great, but experience and common sense are also necessary. The knowledge on this spreadsheet guides most of what I do in Lantus Land.
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

I hope Papaya didn't give you any surprises at PMPS time. :lol: on the fridge this morning. Cats can be so entertaining.

I think you're doing a great job managing Papaya's unique FD dance.
 
Thanks Kim, for being the kind of prairie neighbor I'd want in an icestorm,
Libby for your balanced and reasonable words,
and Carla . . . no ugly surprises yet unless they're hiding under the fridge for tomorrow!
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Interesting discussions today.

I might only add that we are dealing with hormones and an individual person's or kitty's hormones likely act very differently from another person or kitty. That is why we say "ECID". Then consider what enzymes might or might not be present based, in large part, on DNA of the individual.

An analogy would be two people....one that does extremely well on the paleo diet and another that does extremely poorly on it and only does well on a vegan diet.

Many scientific studies have relatively small sample sizes for the overall size of the population. And, in some veterinary studies, there are many variables that might not be accounted for....it's not always so easy to set up the controls.
 
Hi Amy!!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol: about Papaya and the fridge this morning.
If I can draw, I'd do comic strips about Papaya. :lol:

I love this board because we really care about each other's cats (and each other too :lol: ).
I love it that advice I receive here come from people who love and care about Lucy.
That love and caring together with years of experience count more than intelligence or IQ or title, don't they?
 
Re: 11/26 Papaya AMPS=277 +4=55 making advice public

Jess and MrCat said:
Kim, etc.-
If you have comments for me, please post them on my condo. After today, I will no longer read other Lantus condos or comment unless someone decides to come after me again (not sure why the witch hunt, but if you all feel inspired to do so, its your issue). Amy was welcome to comment on my condo if she had something to say to me directly, but instead, she PM'd me so that she could reprimand me privately. Why you decided to defend her, I don't know. I was not attacking her, I was simply stating the opinions of vet experts. I don't have opinions, I am only expressing another viewpoint. It seems that if I disagree with anything anyone says here, I am made out to be the idiot, or the "inexperienced" person, or just "lucky" with an easy cat who stayed in blues and greens. No one has asked me how many hours I have spent researching insulin protocols, learning from many different experts, etc. If everyone is so confident in their viewpoint, why did my comments stir up so much controversy? Why did everyone feel the need to defend their opinions so vehemently? The lady doth protest too much, methinks (Shakespeare).

Comments are usually made in the condo that the discussion takes part in. We try not to jump into a condo that has nothing to do with the issue under discussion. It would have been "wrong" for Amy to take part of this condo and stick it in yours.

Why did she or anyone else respond vehemently? Because telling someone by PM that NOT feeding higher carb food to stop a dangerously low number, and instead only LC food (when you know little to nothing about the specifics of the cat or the bean) is dangerous and irresponsible advice? When a kitty goes into a hypo coma because their cat is denied a life-saving measure, and only fed LC when they drop to 35, then lower, are you going to accept responsibility for your reckless advice? One of the other boards actually has it in their "How to handle hypos" sticky that if you see a number under 40, only feed a small amount of low carb, and test every 30 minutes. And remain calm. Yeah, I can see a newbie doing that. And if he has a seizure, keep trying to feed only low carb. As long as the seizing cat is able to eat on his own of course.
if the cat is seizing and is still able to eat on its own, continue testing/feeding as necessary.
So are you going to be up at 3am while somebody here posts a "911", and actually tell them "ok, Fluffy might be have a seizure. But go ahead and see if he'll eat a tsp or two of nice LC fancy feast and see if he stops."??? If so, please go to sleep early every night. That cat, and that caregiver will be better off grabbing a syringe of karo and packing it and Fluffy in the car for an emergency vet trip.

You can duck behind the "I don't have any opinions, I'm just parroting the 'vet experts'" baloney if that's what you feel you need to do. But if you give advice here, you damn well need to "own it". People are here, especially newbies, hoping that someone, anyone, will help them save Fluffy's life. At 3 am, they are freaked out and anything but "calm". And the meter reads 35, and their cat, in their opinion, is dying. The people who respond to that realize that fact, and they also accept that what they say could save, or cost, a life. And anyone who says "don't worry, Fluffy might be seizing, but low carb is the way to go." has no business telling them that, in my humble non-expert opinion. Or giving any advice for that matter. If all you are going to do is dispense "somebody else's expert advice" and not accept responsibility for what you say, then you're probably better off on one of the "expert" boards where only the "experts" are allowed to spout the company line. And I might be wasting my breath, but I don't think so. Anytime anyone says "I will no longer read other Lantus condos or comment", they always do.

Carl
 
Carl-
Carl & Bob wrote said:
if the cat is seizing and is still able to eat on its own, continue testing/feeding as necessary.

I said I wouldn't post on this page unless someone comes after me again and you just did. That radical quote you just posted is NOT my opinion, nor have I ever said it, nor did I post it. I certainly do NOT support that idea!

Here is what I actually said in this condo:
Jess and MrCat said:
And, by the way, I have posted on many "newbie" pages that I DO NOT recommend low-carb and zero carb foods for BG's under 50 for inexperienced caregivers, especially if the caregiver has no experience with insulin, their cat's response to it, etc. I have said many times that the low-carb approach is for EXPERIENCED caregivers who know their cats and have tried low-carb foods at higher numbers with good response. The times I have recommended low-carb foods has been for folks who express frustration after years of erratic numbers and an inability to keep their cats regulated in a normal, healthy range. Why not try another approach if the one you are trying isn't working?

I will go on to say that I don't recommend LC food if a cat's insulin gets dangerously low. That was not my recommendation here or ever! I was simply stating that if your cat starts to go low, try LC food. If LC food doesn't work and the BG goes down below 50, then by all means, feed HC food (but this would be a very RARE situation if a cat is well-regulated, monitored well, and stays on an LC diet overall). I also state over and over that it is ESSENTIAL to monitor the cat's BG throughout the process. For crying out loud, Carl, I would never make any recommendations that would endanger any cat!!
 
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