11/26 Mikey Food Question

[miso00]

I have been reading through some other condo's to get a better understanding of this forum. I came across a food related question in the cat Lucy's condo that her vet wanted her back on RX food. So I went back to the food list as I think I am feeding Mikey food that is too HC. I am feeding him Friskies but the flavors I bought (before reading the list) are all either 6 or 7 carbs and between 257-317 calories. I see the Friskies called "special diet" are between 3-5 carbs and 210-280 calories. Can I switch him to a LC flavor? Is a "transition period" needed?

Then I saw that Royal Canin SO is only 4 carbs and 251 calories. That is what I have my 15 cats on because a few of them are prone to UTI's/blood in urine. Since Diabetic cats are also prone to Ketones would it help to have him on the SO as well? At this point I am already feeding 15 cats on it so what's one more, however I know the calories are higher. I was trying to figure out how many calories per day MIkey needs but the table I saw was confusing. He is 13.8 pounds. Can anyone explain how I find out how many calories per day he needs and if it's better for him to be on SO ?

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

is the Royal Canin SO a dry food?

i'm not the best to answer food questions, so i'll let others tackle those questions.

 

[miso00]

Julie, It's both wet and dry, which I feed my cats both but know that Mikey would only be able to eat the wet, i assume.

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

Jen
this is very simplistic, but the formula I found on the board once upon a time is 20 calories per pound of ideal body weight per day.

So, if Mikey is "ideal" at his current weight, it would come out to 276 calories per day. That's a good starting point anyway. When I was trying to manage Bob's weight to get and keep him within a few ounces of 14 lb, I fed him 250-300 a day. I've been doing that for a couple months, and he's ranged from 13.8 to 14.4 pounds.
Mikey would need more until his numbers are more controlled and he can process food better. And then more or less depending on activity level. I'm thinking maybe try 300 a day and see what that does?

Carl

 

[miso00]

Carl,
So that's like 1 can a day. He's eating about 2 a day now and he's HUNGRY! I am starting to learn his mannerisms and he sits a certain way in "his room" when he wants to be fed. (I won't tell you how much the others eat, that' has become another mission to get them "food regulated")

Do you now if the SO is good to feed? My cats have been on it for about 2 years. I have tried to switch for "cheaper" or grain free and one of them has a problem. My black cat throws up from science diet. 2 of them pee straight blood when I tried "Blue". I tried to switch even just the canned and that just led to more urine issues. I just figured if it would help with Ketones then Royal Canin SO might be best. I just didn't see anywhere that it said it helped with ketones.

BTW-got another Keto-stix test and it was NEGATIVE!!! I forget who reminds me to check.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

great job catching the ketone test!

there are several people who know a lot about feline nutrition and may be able to answer you - if you leave your subject line like it is, it's sure to get some comments tomorrow if not before. hang in there.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Hi Jennifer:

I am not a fan of any of the prescription diets because they all contain very poor quality ingredients and are typically expensive. I find that grain free, non fish diets or raw diets are best for kitties prone to UTIs. However, are you sure your cats are really getting UTIs? Actual, bacterial UTIs in cats are not common. Typically the blood in the urine is caused by bladder inflammation often brought on by stress. While your cats may all get along, that many kitties in one environment can certainly be a stressor.

Vets often automatically put a cat on ABs if the cat is having symptoms but in actuality, it is most often sterile cystitis. The saying is: "Sterile cystitis patients get better in 1 week with antibiotics and in 7 days without antibiotics." Here is a really great discussion about "UTIs" on Dr. Lisa's webpage:
Urinary Tract Health

It's very important for these cats to drink alot of water and so it's smart to get rid of the dry food and add water to the canned food you feed. Sometimes cosequin or feline duralactin will help with the inflammation.

I know alot about this because Gracie had sterile cystitis for the first four years of her life.

SO will not keep Mikey from getting DKA. DKA is a result of infection, not enough insulin, and not enough food and water.

Bottom line: I would not put Mikey on SO...there are so many better choices and you can move him onto a lower carb food at any time without a problem. I feed Gracie Wellness canned ranging from 4-8% depending on her curve.

Hope this helps....let me know if you have any questions. Glad he is negative. And remember...Mikey is fairly unregulated and is going to be hungry until his diabetes is more under control. If you read the condo for Kaly's kitty, you read what I posted there from Jill.

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

Carl,
So that's like 1 can a day. He's eating about 2 a day now and he's HUNGRY! I am starting to learn his mannerisms and he sits a certain way in "his room" when he wants to be fed. (I won't tell you how much the others eat, that' has become another mission to get them "food regulated").

Jen,
When I look at J & B's chart at the friskees pates, most of them show between 150 and 190 per can, and the special diets which are lower carbs are mostly in the 180's for calories.
http://binkyspage.tripod.com/CanFoodNew.html
So that's less than 2 cans, yes. But ECID. 20 per pound per day worked on Bob. He's diet controlled now, with BG in the 50-70 range, so he's metabolizing the food "normally". Mikey needs more calories because he doesn't get 300 calories worth of bang for the buck, so to speak. I would think that as his condition improves and his numbers get down to blues and greens, he'll require less food, and won't seem so hungry all the time.

Carl

 

[miso00]

Marjorie, the most recent urinary issues with my cats (the past few months) were cystitis. My Vanilla gets very easily and frequently stressed for a variety of reasons. Years ago my seal point siam, Monita, did have more serious urinary issues where she had to stay in the vets for few days and they had to do a lot of tests, fluids, ultrasound, etc. At that time I had only 4 cats.I had one male tabby, Mickey, who when I switched to "Blue" to be more grain free, actually peed blood with no trace of urine. Since then I have never given him anything other than SO and he's fine (that was the second time I tried to switch his food and the second time he had blood) I tried a third time and my black and white cat, Vakita, got what I thought was a UTI. She would go into the litter box every 2 minutes a pee a dime size amount. They do drink a lot of water. I have a bowl and a fountain. I have had them on cosequin at one time also.

That was my interpretation. Now, after reading Dr. Lisa's web page. I'm not sure. The first time I heard cystitis was with Vanilla. The other times I always heard UT infection, but that could be what the vet was "ruling out". I'm going to be honest and say most of my cats were treated by the humane society vet and though they are good vets, sometimes the course of treatment/dx is NOT the same as when you are a "paying" patient. Most of that article is VERY familiar to me. I actually have a stash of clovamax on hand for when I see red. They were put on SO when Monita's brother, Michu was brought in with urinary issues. The vet was fearful it would turn into a blockage and she then recommended with the history of the others to just keep them all on SO. I have to read that article a few more times because it was VERY well written and its a little late for me to comprehend it all. Thanks so much for sending it, perhaps the most detailed info. I have read on the issue. I totally agree with not feeding them the dry but what prevents me from changing is that the past 4 times I did the blood comes back. I'll have to read the part about transitioning them tomorrow.

ok. so no SO for Mikey. Do you think I should switch him to a lower carb food now or wait? (Like I said for the others I will have to attempt the switch again but read the article again. Since Mikey is here and getting wet food so often the others are "craving" it more.

 

[miso00]

marjorie, this the post you were talking about? (I reposted here so I can read again tomorrow with a refreshed mind ;-)

as far as feeding an unregulated cat as much as they want...
i'm afraid that statement is a product of repeat speak rather than fact. here's a post from Dr. Lisa referencing a previous post from Hillary & Zug (GA) on why the amount food fed should be somewhat controlled.

Here's a really good explanation of why NOT to overfeed/feed until "satisfied":

In general, brain cells do not need insulin to utilize glucose. A specific area of the brain, called the appetite center (in the hypothalamus), monitors the amount of glucose that circulates in the bloodstream. The lower the blood glucose level in the cells in the appetite center the greater the appetite. Unlike most of the brain cells, the ability of glucose to enter the cells of the appetite center is dependent upon insulin. In diabetes mellitus, with its lack of adequate insulin in the bloodstream, these appetite center cells don't monitor glucose levels properly, thinking the blood glucose is low. as a result, the pet develops polyphagia to correct for this perceived problem. The additional food that is then eaten further increases the blood glucose level.

from: lbah.com http://lbah.com/feline/diabetes.htm#Pathophysiology

Basically, a cat that's unregulated can't really tell what's going on with its appetite, and the high BGs make the cat even hungrier. It's something of a balancing act -- you want to be sure you're feeding sufficient food that the cat is getting the nutrition it needs, especially to help reduce the risk of ketoacidosis, but you don't want to overfeed (which often happens when the cat is "hungry"). The poor cat doesn't know if it really needs food, it just knows that its brain is saying "need food now!"

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

With regard to calories, this is the formula that's on Dr. Lisa's webpage:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70​

She also noted that most female cats should weigh a nice, lean 10 -11 pounds. Most male cats should fall into the 11 -13 pound range. Obviously, this varies by breed and by bone structure. I wouldn't expect a Siamese to weigh in the same range as a Maine Coon.

I don't think the difference between what you're feeding and the Friskies Special Diet flavors is huge. What you're feeding is fine. If Mikey likes food that's in the 3 - 5% carb range vs. 6 - 7% then feed him what he likes or give him some variety. At one time, I was feeding a raw diet to my cats. I ended up getting some Wellness which was maybe 1 or 2 percent higher in carbs than raw. I saw no difference in Gabby's BG levels. A lower carb food may make a difference if Mikey is carb sensitive. You'll only know by trying it out. We generally regard LC as food that's less than 10% carb. However, most of us feed in the 5% range.

With regard to the SO, the only thing I would suggest is that if you can feed this as a canned food, I'd do so. My thinking is that for cats with any type of urinary track issue, you want to increase water in their diet. Dry food does not help with hydration. Canned food contains a good deal of water so will help along those lines. The SO is sufficiently low in carbs that I wouldn't worry about Mikey pilfering the other cats' food which can always be a concern in a multiple cat home. As others have pointed out, the usual issue with the prescription foods is that they are often not a high quality food (i.e., lots of animal by-products vs. muscle meat). However, if the food is preventing other problems, then I'd stick with it.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

marjorie, this the post you were talking about? (I reposted here so I can read again tomorrow with a refreshed mind

That's it!!!! Good job.....you are really learning the ropes now on navigating the site!!!

 

[Carl & Polly & Bob (GA)]

With regard to calories, this is the formula that's on Dr. Lisa's webpage:
Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70

13.8 x 13.6 +70 = 258

13.8 x 20 = 276

So, pretty close. Assuming that 13.8 lbs is Mikey's ideal weight. That's still between 1.5 and 2 cans a day of the various Friskees varieties mentioned earlier. The only way to up the "cans per day" would be to find food that has less calories per ounce/can. Number of cans means less than "total calorie intake" when talking about weight management. Mikey might need a kitty treadmill to work off those calories!

Carl

 

[miso00]

He's not that big, well depends on who your comparing him too :lol: . "My" boys are chubby, they all have the belly flabbing under them. Mikey is taller then they are and longer too. The vet said his weight is ok. I'm sure he could still lose a few. That's one reason I want to get my cats off the dry food, my boys are just HUGE!. My girls are petite, but a few have that extra skin too :sad:

Although I think MIkey has lost a little since he's been here.