11/25 Dickens PMPS 50 newbie, skip/delay shot?

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LarissaDavis529

Member Since 2012
I have updated my excel doc. Dickens, 14, is very under weight and has a very porr appetite. yesterday I began supplementing the small amount he eats with 2 tsps of the liver shake via syringe. He had i unit of lantus this morning, and his numbers have been falling all day. I had trouble getting samples so there is a large gap from +2 to PMPS. PMPS was 50, this was 30 minutes after his meager PM meal. Do I skip the PM shot?
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Hello.
I don't see any of the advising people online at the moment.
But they don't tend to shoot a number below 50. I would say you are stalling for now until one of them comes on and can advise you.
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Yes I would skip the shot - or at least stall and keep measuring every 15-30mins until you get two numbers in a row that are rising and go above 130 (I think Sienne would say get him above 130 since you and he are newbies) 50 is really low for a newly diagnosed cat thats not eating.

But keep measuring him so we can see what he does.

And read the sticky on handling and shooting low numbers.

Welcome to the forum!!! Tell us more about your kitty! :)
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Thank you. I will definitely stall for now and test him again in an hour to see if the food is causing his numbers to go up.
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

I'm sure someone with more dosing experience will be along shortly to guide you, but IMO, I personally would at the very least delay, if not skip, between the poor appy, the lack of data for shooting low (since Dickens is so newly diagnosed), and the steadily dropping numbers.

Keep checking back...and welcome to Lantus Land!!
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

If he ate recently it could inflate his numbers for the next couple of hours depending on what he had. Also the longer you wait, the later you have to give your next shot tomorrow morning because its going to be 12 hours from whenever you shoot tonite. If thats going to be unworkable or too far off schedule for you then skip.

If an expert like Sienne doesnt show up soon, I would skip. Better safe than sorry
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Usually, when you stall, you don't feed and test every 20 minutes so that you can shoot as soon as the numbers start to rise. I am not a dosing expert either but I would be very hesitant to shoot that 50, especially with a poor appy. The good news is that Dickens is responding very well to Lantus. :-D I'm sure your vet has good intentions, but adjusting the dose by 1u is way to big of a step for cats. Can you summarize the readings and feeding that you've done today?
Liz
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

I have been having trouble getting blood samples for tests. Someone suggested I might need larger lancets, but that will have to wait until the pharmacy opens in 12 hours.

I adopted Dickens from a friend last October (2011) when she was moving from Massachusetts to Texas. He has always been a big eater, totally interested in food. So I was really concerned when he lost his appetite, which happened after I brought him back from the vet on Wednesday morning...right after his blood test. He HATES car rides, and he had 2 in a row, tues PM and wed. AM, and I thought maybe that stress caused the decline. He got his first shot Wednesday PM at 2 units, and by friday his numbers were dropping steadily, which is when the vet said to skip the does, and then drop back to 1 unit from 2. I think the big concern is that he is not eating. He will lick the fancy feast, and he will eat temptations treats...but only 4 or 5 before he loses interest. This is why I decided to make the liver shake yesterday and start giving that to him.

Why do they lose their appetites? Is it a really bad sign?
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

This condo has a list of appetite tricks. Hopefully you will find some that work for Dickens. As we say around here, ECID (Every Cat Is Different). Good idea to make the liver shake! We had to syringe feed Zener for a few days and then he started eating on his own again. Appetite issues are common with diabetes. A diabetic friend of a friend says he just has no appetite. Being hooman, he knows he has to eat. Cats, not so much. :roll: There is also something called gastroparesis where the nerves to the stomach are affected by the diabetes and do not function as well as normal. Does Dickens show any issues with walking, such as walking on his hocks?
Liz
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Regarding what he has eaten today, I gave him 2 tsp. of liver shake in the morning, and he licked at his fancy feast. Then I gave him another 2 tsp. of shake tonight along with his licking the fancy feast and eating 4 temptations. This is all very unusual for him. He used to beg food at the table. Tuesday night when we got back from the vet (prior to confirmed diagnosis) I made him ground turky and he ate 1/2 cup. The appetite loss came after the wed AM vet trip and blood draw. He has ot wanted to eat much since then. It you go to the google doc link most of the data is in there...minus a few things that I did not find room for in that format.
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Anne & Zener said:
This condo has a list of appetite tricks. Hopefully you will find some that work for Dickens. As we say around here, ECID (Every Cat Is Different). Good idea to make the liver shake! We had to syringe feed Zener for a few days and then he started eating on his own again. Appetite issues are common with diabetes. A diabetic friend of a friend says he just has no appetite. Being hooman, he knows he has to eat. Cats, not so much. :roll: There is also something called gastroparesis where the nerves to the stomach are affected by the diabetes and do not function as well as normal. Does Dickens show any issues with walking, such as walking on his hocks?
Liz
Click to expand...

Yes, he has lost his ability to walk...he can do it, but is VERY weak. He already had difficulty due to hip surgery a few years ago, but diabetes has really done a number on him.
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

There can be several reasons for lower appetite. That's why I asked about the food, if you had changed recently from high carb
to low... or dry to wet... they sometimes get less interested.
And there are many health reasons for it which I don't even know all the possibilities. When one of our more experienced advisors comes
on , they can address the possibilities.
The vet seems to have recognized that the dose was too high so reducing to 1 unit is a good thing.

And yes, when your lancets are too fine , they make it hard to get samples , especially newbies.
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

With all this info, the fact you are having issues getting blood to test, the fact that he isn't eating properly and the food he had recently had high carbs in it (temptations), and the fact he is so low and you don't have a lot of data. I am thinking skip. Spend your efforts trying to get him to eat. Tomorrow morning, we can retest and reevaluate.
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

We have a pretty specific format to present data, so that advice givers can quickly see what's going on with the cat. A good example is in Mannie's condo where everything is specified by when it happens relative to the shot. Since everyone is in different time zones, that helps keep things straight.

Also, in your subject line, could you do something like this. You need to edit the very first original post for it to show up on the board. You can also use the question icon at the top.
11/25 Dickens PMPS 50 newbie, skip/delay shot?

How much does Dickens weigh and how much should he weigh? Sienne or Marje will likely come along and suggest a dose.
Liz
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

The walking issue could also be due to peripheral neuropathy, which causes weakness. Zener had that and we started him on zobaline, 1 pill per day, maybe 2 initially. It took a few weeks but he walks normally now. Well, normal for him. :lol: :lol: He has cerebellar hypoplasia (a brain developmental issue that affects his balance).
Liz
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Hope you'll come back and get help.
This is the best place to be for these issues.

Have you heard about zobaline for neuropathy.


edited to add: Liz and I must be typing about the same speed tonite. :-D
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Welcome to Lantus Land!

With a 50 as your pre-shot value and given that you're having difficulty getting Dicken's ear to give you a sample reliably, I would urge you to skip the shot tonight. However, did Dickens have any other issues at the time he was diagnosed? Did the vet mention anything about ketones? If Dickens has had an issue with ketones, skipping may not be such a good idea. Did the vet indicate there was an infection or are you waiting for any lab results.

Could you provide some background about Dickens? How did you discover he was diabetic? Have you changed his food since he was diagnosed?

Aside from his appetite, is Dickens acting normally?
 
Anne & Zener said:
We have a pretty specific format to present data, so that advice givers can quickly see what's going on with the cat. A good example is in Mannie's condo where everything is specified by when it happens relative to the shot. Since everyone is in different time zones, that helps keep things straight.

Also, in your subject line, could you do something like this. You need to edit the very first original post for it to show up on the board. You can also use the question icon at the top.
11/25 Dickens PMPS 50 newbie, skip/delay shot?

How much does Dickens weigh and how much should he weigh? Sienne or Marje will likely come along and suggest a dose.
Liz
Click to expand...

Dickens was 26 lbs when I adopted him a year ago. This was overweight, but not too much as he is a large maine coon with a very big frame, he looks like some kind of wild cat due to his size. But at the vet this week we determined he has dropped to just over 16 lbs. :o
 
Re: New member, 50 PMPS, skip/delay shot?

Sienne and Gabby said:
Welcome to Lantus Land!

With a 50 as your pre-shot value and given that you're having difficulty getting Dicken's ear to give you a sample reliably, I would urge you to skip the shot tonight. However, did Dickens have any other issues at the time he was diagnosed? Did the vet mention anything about ketones? If Dickens has had an issue with ketones, skipping may not be such a good idea. Did the vet indicate there was an infection or are you waiting for any lab results.

Could you provide some background about Dickens? How did you discover he was diabetic? Have you changed his food since he was diagnosed?

Aside from his appetite, is Dickens acting normally?
Click to expand...

No ketones were present. No other issues were mentioned, just the skyrocketing glucose (it was 527 when the vet tested on 11/21).

We did change his food on 11/21 PM to fancy feast classics. But 11/21 AM I made him ground turkey and he hardly touched it. 11/20 PM he had eaten 1/2 cup of it so this was a remarkable change.

I have only been giving him temptations in an attempt to get something into him. Is it better to stick with only the liver shake and ditch the temptations altogether?
 
I think anything you can do to get him to eat at this point is important. Have you tried fortiflora? It's available from the vet but also amazon.com. It's a powder that you sprinkle on the food. It has the same flavor as dry food. Zener loves it but some cats don't.
Liz
 
Here are some other options when it comes to enticing a cat to eat that was put together by another member:
Cheryl & Winnie said:
Enticing a Cat to Eat

Here are some things you can do do entice your cat to eat:

-sometimes in order to get a cat to eat you even have to resort to dry it is more important that they eat. there are a couple low carb / grain free brands -- EVO and wellness core.

-making a buffet to give him choices
- heating food

sprinkle food with :
  • forta flora -- a probiotic you can get at vets or online. is very smelly and cats love the taste of it.
  • parmesean cheese
  • smashed crumbles of dry food
  • bonito/tuna flakes (Can be found at Asian markets or sometimes in the Asian food section of a large grocery store.)
  • halo chicken treats (freeze dried chicken) -- crumble into dust over food -- my Wolfie loves this stuff.
  • pour a little water from tuna in water over food (I use low sodium/no sodium added as other kinds in water has veg. broth in it and I assume that means onions, which are toxic to cats and it shouldn't contain soy -- check labels)
  • powdered oregano. yep sounds weird . but some cats like it and it will entice them to eat.

other ideas of foods to offer your kitty to stim appy:
  • trader joe tuna for cats
  • baby food -- beechnut or Gerber Stage 2 -- you want a baby food that is only a protein + broth (although the Gerber contains cornstarch). It should have no onions or other additives. some babyfoods have onions . please read labels if you can't find beechnut.
  • kentucky fried chicken
  • deli turkey /chicken
  • plain cooked ( boiled or baked ) chicken breast
  • canned chicken for people (watch the label that their are no onions)
  • chicken broth -- low sodium

If enticements don't work, you should consider:
-assist feeding ( syringe or make little meatballs and place in mouth)
-and/or talking to your vet about appetite stimulents ( mirtazapine or cyproheptidine)
Click to expand...
 
rhiannon and shadow said:
Hello.
I went to see what else you had been shown since finding this wonderful place. You pretty much seem to have just gotten here.


www.catinfo.org is good for all things about feeding. And here are food lists of acceptable foods for feline diabetes.

most updated food list

an updated shortcut shopping list


What was he eating before diagnosis?
Not all kitties are willing to change foods.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the links.

Dickens has always been willing to eat anything. He was eating Wysong, dry food, good stuff but only about 30-40% protein. It has been out for him since he was not eating, but he is not interested in it. This morning I had to syringe feed him the liver shake again.
 
Good morning. I am concerned about the fact he still isnt eating normally. Did you
-and/or talking to your vet about appetite stimulents ( mirtazapine or cyproheptidine)
Click to expand...
? Be better if you could pill them because if this is stress the last thing you want to do is another trip back to the vet.

Have you tried all his favourite foods? Tiggy has been through this a few times for various reasons and gets very picky when not feeling well.. I can usually find something to tempt him a little.. I think i have tried everything from Siennes list!But I add shortbread, potato chips (esp Cheesies) and buttery cookies to that list too.. I know its high carb etc but when they arent eating I will try anything! (as long as they dont have diarrhea in which case they dont get dairy products). I get a small piece of everything and offer it to him, and eventually I can find something he will eat usually.
 
I had a very good response with Simon in 2011 with only one dose of Mirtazapine. It's worth considering,
but can have side effects and all other issues must be considered too. Some good info at Tanya's CKD Site
 
A cat that is no eating/has no appetite for more than 2 days means a vet visit. Cats can quickly develop hepatic lipidosis and begin to have liver problems. I would suggest getting Dickens in to see your vet.

Since you don't know the cause of the lack of appetite (e.g., if Dickens is nauseated), an appetite stimulant can be a bad idea. Once you have some idea of what's going on, it may be appropriate, but not until you have your vet's input. (The drugs require a prescription.)
 
I skipped last night's shot. Had to feed him the liver shake this morning, then his PS was 155. Just gave him 1 unit of lantus.

I am going to check with the vet for an appetite stimulant. Even the foods he LOVED before are not interesting him.
 
Please get a +1 and a +2 test.

Please discuss the possibilities for why Dickens isn't eating. It may be he is developing pancreatitis. This can be assessed with a blood test (a Spec fPLI or Snap fPLI the former is sent out to a lab whereas if the vet has the materials, the other is done in the office). Dickens should also be assessed for hepatic lipidosis given the amount of weight he's lost recently. While the weight loss may be due to the diabetes, I'm hoping your vet considered this possibility.

I don't want to be an alarmist. It may simply be that because Dickens BG is back in a much better range, he is eating less. When diabetes is out of control, appetite is markedly increased. As the diabetes is under better control, appetite drops off.
 
Sienne and Gabby said:
A cat that is no eating/has no appetite for more than 2 days means a vet visit. Cats can quickly develop hepatic lipidosis and begin to have liver problems. I would suggest getting Dickens in to see your vet.

Since you don't know the cause of the lack of appetite (e.g., if Dickens is nauseated), an appetite stimulant can be a bad idea. Once you have some idea of what's going on, it may be appropriate, but not until you have your vet's input. (The drugs require a prescription.)
Click to expand...

I appreciate the advice. I am not sure another vet visit is in the cards financially. I have a call in to the vet and will see what they say.
 
Sienne and Gabby said:
Please get a +1 and a +2 test.

Please discuss the possibilities for why Dickens isn't eating. It may be he is developing pancreatitis. This can be assessed with a blood test (a Spec fPLI or Snap fPLI the former is sent out to a lab whereas if the vet has the materials, the other is done in the office). Dickens should also be assessed for hepatic lipidosis given the amount of weight he's lost recently. While the weight loss may be due to the diabetes, I'm hoping your vet considered this possibility.

I don't want to be an alarmist. It may simply be that because Dickens BG is back in a much better range, he is eating less. When diabetes is out of control, appetite is markedly increased. As the diabetes is under better control, appetite drops off.
Click to expand...

I will ask the vet about these possibilities.

I am having trouble getting enough blood from dickens. I think my lancets are too small, getting new ones shortly. I got a reading this morning PS but did not get enough blood after several pokes at +2. I am getting discouraged. The tests were so easy the first 24 hours but after that have been really difficult.
 
Have you tried warming his ear first? Or using a small flashlight to shine through? I do both. I rub his ear for a minute or so, apply a dab of neosporin ointment ( helps the blood not soak in) then shine a flashlight through so I can see what he is doing. I also tend to poke a shallow angle.

Also there is useful info here http://www.felinediabetes.com/bg-test.htm
 
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