11/24 Webster +11=344 +2=370+4=270 +11.75=445

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Websterthecat

Member Since 2014
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Yesterday was a much better day for both Webster and my wife & I. Although his numbers stayed fairly high, he didn't experience any huge drop offs meaning no panic mode for Mike. :mrgreen: Hopefully today will go just as smoothly but with lower numbers as his bounce clears.

I decided to do a progress report today after looking back over the past 9 days since Webster came home from the hospital and realizing how far he has already recovered since finding him very sick under the bed.

Just in the past two days I have noticed that his coat is starting to shine! Also all the visible dandruff that he had is gone. He seems to be hydrated and he has been grooming him self all of the time.

While in the higher numbers yesterday he was active, alert and was purring even while I checked his BG.

Ever since we adopted him and fed him cheapo dry food his poop smelled so bad. He would go and I would be 3 rooms away and smell it within seconds. I would dart to his little box with my nose covered in my shirt to mute the awful smell while scooping. I've even had a few visiting friends and family members comment on how bad his poo smelled. Since switching to wet food.. while it smells like poo, it's smells like roses in comparison to his old poo. We also noticed much less pee in his litter box which I believe is a good sign. Ok sorry, hope you weren't eating breakfast. :shock:

Most notably, his appetite has improved thanks in part to the Fortiflora I believe (and thank you guys for the suggestion). He asks for his wet food by name and is able to pick it up and eat on his own. Since he was always a grazer, after taking his BG I have been putting out 3 oz of food (just over half a can) twice per day and leaving it out all day until he finishes. I notice that he takes a few bites, I give him his insulin, and then he returns to his bowl around +1 to +2 to eat some more. He seems to return again sometime later in the cycle to eat the rest but I haven't quite figured out when. Overall, he's been eating about 1.25 cans per day!

Yesterday my wife and I were reflecting on his behavior prior to the DKA. I distinctly remember him following me around meowing constantly although his food bowl was full, water was fresh and litter box was recently changed out. We couldn't figure it out! Why are you following me around? You have everything that you need! This went on for a couple weeks before he crashed with DKA. Never did it occur to me that he had diabetes and his body was destroying itself because the sugars from the food he was eating was not being processed.

So that's it - nicer coat, better appetite, less smelly poop, smaller urine output. Also, his inner white eyelids are not showing as they once were. Now, we just have to figure out why his BG keeps tanking. I'm hoping that we see an improvement as his appetite increases and we are allowing him to graze so that he can sort of self regulate throughout the day whenever he's feeling the drop.

Let's hope for a good day. Daddy's gotta get some work done Webster!
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 Progress report

What a WONDERFUL Webster report!!! As for the pee and poop talk...Mike, you are TRULY one of us now :lol: :lol: :lol: !!! Have a great day!!
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 Progress report

Amy&TrixieCat said:
What a WONDERFUL Webster report!!! As for the pee and poop talk...Mike, you are TRULY one of us now :lol: :lol: :lol: !!! Have a great day!!

:-D Thanks.

So today we are experiencing the opposite problem with Webster. His BG levels are actually climbing.

Granted, his appetite seems to have improved in the past 24 hours and he is eating both before and after his insulin in addition to somewhere in the middle. His insulin dose has also been lowered from .5u to .25u after his dive into the low 40's the other day.

What do you think we are looking at here? Maybe he is still recovering from his bounce the other day? Maybe the extra food that he has been eating boosted his bg? (he just finished up his breakfast about 45 mins ago) Maybe the dose is too low? I understand that it's way too early to make adjustments to his dose due to recent dose changes. I'm just hope his BGs come down just a little because I'm concerned that Ketones may start appearing if he stays high for too long.

My plan today is to monitor and see whats going on. Hopefully today's data will show us something.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 Progress report

What a great report on Webster! Ah, a poop condo, yes, you are officially one of us.,
dancing-poop.gif
dancing-poop.gif
dancing-poop.gif


Well, Webster has had a dose change and a bounce, either of which can take up to 6 cycles to settle down. Plus at +2 there could still be influence from having a good breffis! Be sure to test for ketone as well as BG during the day.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 Progress report

Ann & Tess said:
What a great report on Webster! Ah, a poop condo, yes, you are officially one of us.,
dancing-poop.gif
dancing-poop.gif
dancing-poop.gif


Well, Webster has had a dose change and a bounce, either of which can take up to 6 cycles to settle down. Plus at +2 there could still be influence from having a good breffis! Be sure to test for ketone as well as BG during the day.

Thank you. Ketones negative as of an hour ago. I'm glad to see that he's having a healthy appetite now and I don't have to continuously force food on him. He ate almost the entire 3 ounces before +1.5 and then came back again and finished up his meal at +3. He has been acting "normal" as ever all day long - moving around taking a quick nap, back at the window looking out, snacking, etc.

I put out another tablespoon just in case he feels hungry and wants another bite. Am I doing this feeding thing wrong?
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 Progress report

hi Mike,

What a good whole-cat report! And it looks like you are doing the feeding thing just right. Webster is a grazer and seens very adept at self regulating his food. Rusty does the same thing.
Don't worry about the numbers going up instead of down. Bounces, as Ann says, can take 72 hours to clear. Also there are so many factors at work: hour of the day, some food influence, a different food formula, inaccurate markings on the syringe (very commom), etc. and then it can simply be the cat!! If you notice an upward trend over several days, it may be time to increase the dose. The experts will advise you.

Carry on! You are doing great and your kitty is letting you know that by his behavior and his beatiful coat.

Ella & Rusty
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 Progress report

It's so nice to read a cheerful report!! You are lucky that the dandruff has disappeared so quickly. Max still his some. It was getting much better with omega 3 but I stopped it for a bit to see if that was causing an issue he was having. I'll try it again later to see. Have a great day.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 Progress report

Awesome report! Like Elise and Max, Cobb still has some of his dandruff as well. Matt (my DH) and I joked a few nights ago that we should just shave him and let him start from scratch. We aren't going to do that obviously, but the thought has crossed our minds!! :lol:

Bounces stink, don't they?! But you're seeing positive changes in Webster already, which mean (in my opinion) sometimes more than the numbers! Great job, Mike!
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 Progress report

Question about feeding:

I fed him 3 oz's (1/2 5.5oz can plus about a tablespoon) which he ate within the first 3 hours of recieving his shot. I then let out an additional tbs or so which he has already ate! His bg is coming down. Can I give him more? How much should I give him between feedings? The vet recommended 6 oz per day split up into two parts.

I'm so happy he has his appetite back :-D . I don't want to deny him food if he is hungry and his numbers are going down as they are starting to do right now.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

What a great progress report!

The issue with feeding isn't so much how many ounces as it is calories -- just like with people. Dr. Lisa's site has what she describes as a "generous" way of calculating the caloric needs for a cat:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70​
Her food charts and most canned food should indicate the number of calories per can. You can then gauge how much to feed Webster. If you see he's gaining weight past where you think his weight should be using this formula, then scale back the number of calories. Feed him more if he's too thin.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

Sienne and Gabby said:
What a great progress report!

The issue with feeding isn't so much how many ounces as it is calories -- just like with people. Dr. Lisa's site has what she describes as a "generous" way of calculating the caloric needs for a cat:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70​
Her food charts and most canned food should indicate the number of calories per can. You can then gauge how much to feed Webster. If you see he's gaining weight past where you think his weight should be using this formula, then scale back the number of calories. Feed him more if he's too thin.

Thank you for the response. I remembered seeing that somewhere . Thanks for the reminder.

So Webster is of course a male cat. Dr. Lisa says: "Most male cats should fall into the 11 -13 pound range." So lets say that we go with 12lbs.

12.6 X 12 +70 = 221 calories per day

He is eating Friskies Special Turkey & Giblets dinner. According to her chart http://www.catinfo.org/docs/FoodChartPublic9-22-12.pdf
a 5.5oz can contains 166 calories or 30.18 calories per oz.

With a calorie need of 221/day, 30.18 cal per ounce, he should be getting about 7.32 oz per day or one 5.5oz can plus 1/3 of another can. So I feed him 2x per day 3.66 oz of food.

Monitor weight and adjust calorie intake up or down if gaining weight or losing too fast. Right?

Can someone please double check my math? Any additional input?
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

I can't check your math since 1+1=11 in my book, but boy is this helpful to me. I've been wondering the same thing about Mikey's food intake. I'm not completely sure what his idea weight is either. Guess I should call the vet and ask. He's kind of a small guy.

I'm so very glad that Webster is doing well, and that you guys got out for a bit. It's amazing what leaving the house can do for you.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

I think it would help if you knew his actual weight and his "ideal" weight. You vet probably weighed him at the last visit, you can call and ask them to look it up. Do you think Webster is overweight, or under weight? W/ DKA it's important that the cat get enough to eat. Also, diabetic cat often can't used all the calories they eat as it gets tied up in blood sugar, so unregulated cats often want to eat more. But don't go overboard w/ too much extra food.

On her Nutrition: Know the Basics page Dr. Lisa says"
The average cat should eat ~180 - 220 calories per day which will be found in 5-6 ounces of the average canned food.

However, note that high protein/low fat/low carb foods like Weruva Paw Lickin' Chicken and some Tiki Cat varieties are very low in calories (see the Cat Food Composition chart - far right column) so you will need to feed much more than 5-6 ounces which can get quite expensive.

The necessary daily caloric intake should be split between 3-4 meals/day (or just free-fed if they are not overweight).

When determining how much you should be feeding your cat once transitioned to canned food, keep it simple. Too fat? Feed less. Too thin? Feed more.
A little further down she says:
The caloric needs of an average cat can range between 150 - 250 calories/day depending on their lean body weight and activity level.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

Marycatmom said:
I can't check your math since 1+1=11 in my book, but boy is this helpful to me. I've been wondering the same thing about Mikey's food intake. I'm not completely sure what his idea weight is either. Guess I should call the vet and ask. He's kind of a small guy.

I'm so very glad that Webster is doing well, and that you guys got out for a bit. It's amazing what leaving the house can do for you.

Webster's appetite has defiantly increased over the past two days. I basically had to force him to eat 3/4 (if that) of a can up until a couple days ago. Now he's eating 1 can plus on his own and it's been 3 cycles now that he hasn't taken a nose dive. We think that hes also clearing a bounce so we will see where this goes over the next couple days.

Perhaps Webster was getting too much insulin with not enough food. Now, hopefully his appetite is back and we can get some real numbers here and find out what the insulin is really doing. Hopefully his constant and unpredictable dives are a thing of the past.

I believe that you said you are feeding Mikey Turkey and Giblets Fancy feast? How much does he weigh right now? How much are you feeding him?
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

Ann & Tess said:
I think it would help if you knew his actual weight and his "ideal" weight. You vet probably weighed him at the last visit, you can call and ask them to look it up. Do you think Webster is overweight, or under weight? W/ DKA it's important that the cat get enough to eat. Also, diabetic cat often can't used all the calories they eat as it gets tied up in blood sugar, so unregulated cats often want to eat more. But don't go overboard w/ too much extra food.

On her Nutrition: Know the Basics page Dr. Lisa says"
The average cat should eat ~180 - 220 calories per day which will be found in 5-6 ounces of the average canned food.

However, note that high protein/low fat/low carb foods like Weruva Paw Lickin' Chicken and some Tiki Cat varieties are very low in calories (see the Cat Food Composition chart - far right column) so you will need to feed much more than 5-6 ounces which can get quite expensive.

The necessary daily caloric intake should be split between 3-4 meals/day (or just free-fed if they are not overweight).

When determining how much you should be feeding your cat once transitioned to canned food, keep it simple. Too fat? Feed less. Too thin? Feed more.
A little further down she says:
The caloric needs of an average cat can range between 150 - 250 calories/day depending on their lean body weight and activity level.

His charts from a couple weeks ago during the DKA event says he weighed 11.2lbs. I remember weighing him a couple months ago and him being 15lbs or so. He must have quickly lost 4lbs due to the diabetes.

I weighed him today using my digital bathroom scale with me on it. I weighed myself with Webster and then weighted myself without Webster, then subtracted the difference and came up with 10lbs which is about a 1lb less compared to the vet scale. I know that there is going to be some variance on my scale and he hasn't eaten much over the past couple weeks so 1lb difference sounds reasonable. I do however now have a baseline to compare his weight in the future.

Before DKA he had a belly that would hang close to the ground. Now his belly has shrunk quite a bit and his spine and midsection seems kind of bony. The original vet who treated him for DKA wrote "anorexia" as well as "diabetes" and "fleas" under diagnosis. My guess would be that he's underweight.

As for activity level, he's an indoor cat and makes his way from the bed to his food bowl and to each window in the house, then back to bed. In other words, not very active. The weight that he does have is flab, not muscle.

I really like the idea of free feeding because he has always been a free feeder and my thinking is that when he starts to feel the effects of low BG he heads for the bowl to take a bite to eat. Shouldn't doing so help keep his BG's more consistent throughout the day?

Given his circumstances, where would you start his daily calorie intake at?
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

Take a look at this chart and sees where Webster fits in. If he is 10 pounds and not looking too skinny and isn't very active, what you have been feeding him sounds good, 200 to 210 calories. I'd weigh him at least weekly and as long as he isn't losing weight go w/ that. If he loses more weight up the calories by 10%.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

I just wanted to add one comment. When you see blood sugar numbers varying, one factor in addition to the ones that Ella mentioned, is that the absorption rate can vary by as much as 50% with each shot. I'm not certain what causes that variation, but it's somewhere on the yellow starred stickies. Might be in the one about the Insulin Depot. In other words, you could hold every factor the same, shoot exactly the same dose (probably not very possible to do given the differences in syringes), feed exactly the same food, and Webster's body might absorb as much as 50% differently today compared to yesterday.

With those several hours of flat yellow numbers today, it could be giving you a heads-up that he's clearing the bounce from the long day of green and blue day before yesterday. Some cats clear a bounce with a big dive off of a cliff, some sort of slide down gradually. One of those ECID (every cat is different) things.
 
Re: 11/24 Webster +11.25=344 +2=370 +4=270 Progress report

julie & punkin (ga) said:
I just wanted to add one comment. When you see blood sugar numbers varying, one factor in addition to the ones that Ella mentioned, is that the absorption rate can vary by as much as 50% with each shot. I'm not certain what causes that variation, but it's somewhere on the yellow starred stickies. Might be in the one about the Insulin Depot. In other words, you could hold every factor the same, shoot exactly the same dose (probably not very possible to do given the differences in syringes), feed exactly the same food, and Webster's body might absorb as much as 50% differently today compared to yesterday.

With those several hours of flat yellow numbers today, it could be giving you a heads-up that he's clearing the bounce from the long day of green and blue day before yesterday. Some cats clear a bounce with a big dive off of a cliff, some sort of slide down gradually. One of those ECID (every cat is different) things.

Interesting. I never heard about the absorption rate varying until. Let's add that to the list of variables. :YMSIGH:

Do you think this has something to do with the injection site? I see that some people are injecting in the scruff but was told by the vet that it doesn't absorb very well and to inject into the side. Where are you guys injecting?

Let's hope that he gradually slides down. Wouldn't a dive after a bounce trigger another bounce. This would mean a never-ending cycle of dive,bounce, dive,bounce. I guess I'm still not fully understanding how these bounces work.
 
I was told the same as you about injection sites. Many here inject in the scruff and it sure is easier. I've done it a few times when Max was being difficult but have been chicken to do it regularly for that reason. Some like Marje vary the site each time. I asked her once and she didn't seem to think it made a difference. If she reads this maybe she will comment about it.
 
tiffmaxee said:
I was told the same as you about injection sites. Many here inject in the scruff and it sure is easier. I've done it a few times when Max was being difficult but have been chicken to do it regularly for that reason. Some like Marje vary the site each time. I asked her once and she didn't seem to think it made a difference. If she reads this maybe she will comment about it.

The vet shaved a 4 areas on his side. He lays down and shooting is actually a breeze. I never imagined it to be so easy. If I fill the syringe, cap it, and let it sit on the counter to warm for a few mins he rarely notices when the insulin goes in. If put it in cold he looks at the injection site and sometimes flinches.
 
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