11/23 Webster +11=425 +1.5=399 +2.5=497

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Websterthecat

Member Since 2014
Webster keeps dropping as seen yesterday once again viewtopic.php?f=9&t=128828

I'm becoming delirious and a prisoner of my home because of this. I just might fall asleep with my head on the keyboard.

Why.. Why does he keep on dropping on me?? I'm almost ready to completely stop the lantus, feed him the new food and see what happens. I know this was tried before with Mikey and his numbers stayed high but I am really beginning to question whether or not Webster really needs insulin after his new diet change. It seems to be pushing him way down. I'm hesitant to give him his shot in 30 mins.

Please.. Let's hear your thoughts.
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

Hi Mike,

I'm too new to have a clue on what you should do, but if you add "dosing advice needed" and the little question mark icon to your subject like, someone with experience will probably answer you faster. It sure does sound like he should get to share Mikey's nickname of RB!

Mary
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

I know what it's like to be tired. Believe me.
His numbers yesterday looked pretty darn good.

With his recent DKA, I would be hesitant to take him completely off of insulin, just now. I would try that 0.25 dose for a few more days unless or until he earns another dose reduction. It's halving the dose, so maybe he'll settle down to some good flat numbers for a while.

Sleep whenever you can.
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

Dyana said:
I know what it's like to be tired. Believe me.
His numbers yesterday looked pretty darn good.

With his recent DKA, I would be hesitant to take him completely off of insulin, just now. I would try that 0.25 dose for a few more days unless or until he earns another dose reduction. It's halving the dose, so maybe he'll settle down to some good flat numbers for a while.

Sleep whenever you can.
Click to expand...

The DKA factor does have me worried and I understand the importance of insulin and food.

I'm hearing some tell me that the numbers looks good. Yes, they are green however he quickly dropped into the low 40's two times yesterday. It's like I feed him, give him his shot, and then prepare myself for panic mode.
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

Marycatmom said:
Hi Mike,

I'm too new to have a clue on what you should do, but if you add "dosing advice needed" and the little question mark icon to your subject like, someone with experience will probably answer you faster. It sure does sound like he should get to share Mikey's nickname of RB!

Mary
Click to expand...

Yes, I was looking at Mikey's SS last night and there are a lot of similarities. How the heck have you been dealing with these drops for over a month now? I would have lost it by now. Was Mikey a DKA kitty? Whats his story? When did you find out that he had diabetes? How old is he? Sounds like he was on dry and has recently been switched over. What times are you feeding him?
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

Hi Mike. This disease is really difficult for the caregivers, especially at first. I applaud you for testing right from the start. I have no idea what Max did the first months because I wasn't ready to test at home. Max was diagnosed mid November and I didn't start testing until January. I would go to my vet's office at nadir. Then when I started testing it was just maybe four times a day until he was bouncing so much that it was suggested he might be diving at night. He was!! :o Having a bouncy kitty has been a huge challenge and I've wanted to give up so many times and just give less insulin and test 4 times a day. He finally doesn't have the huge differences throughout the day after a year but still gets low enough that I'm scared to leave him which presents new challenges, especially as I am needed to help out friends or family members in need. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. However, I doubt you will experience any of this as Webster seems to show the signs of so many newbies here and has a REALLY GOOD CHANCE of remission. For so many it happens within a few months, some even faster. So try to hang in there and take it one day at a time. :YMHUG:
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

tiffmaxee said:
Hi Mike. This disease is really difficult for the caregivers, especially at first. I applaud you for testing right from the start. I have no idea what Max did the first months because I wasn't ready to test at home. Max was diagnosed mid November and I didn't start testing until January. I would go to my vet's office at nadir. Then when I started testing it was just maybe four times a day until he was bouncing so much that it was suggested he might be diving at night. He was!! :o Having a bouncy kitty has been a huge challenge and I've wanted to give up so many times and just give less insulin and test 4 times a day. He finally doesn't have the huge differences throughout the day after a year but still gets low enough that I'm scared to leave him which presents new challenges, especially as I am needed to help out friends or family members in need. I had no idea what I was getting myself into. However, I doubt you will experience any of this as Webster seems to show the signs of so many newbies here and has a REALLY GOOD CHANCE of remission. For so many it happens within a few months, some even faster. So try to hang in there and take it one day at a time. :YMHUG:
Click to expand...

Thank you for sharing Tiff. I'm looking forward to seeing him go into remission some day and it doesn't have to this week, next week, or next month. I'm okay with the periodic testing and the shots. What I can't handle is these drops! It's very concerning and has completely taken over my life. I'm trying to hang in there...
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

It's tough to deal with I know. Webster needs to learn that the diving team is full so he should try out for the surfing team instead.
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

tiffmaxee said:
It's tough to deal with I know. Webster needs to learn that the diving team is full so he should try out for the surfing team instead.
Click to expand...
:mrgreen: Good one! That made me smile.
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

Sending prayers for a safe surf this time....Webster is probably one of the "best", most skilled divers we've had here :shock: !! You are doing awesome, Mike....you should really be proud of yourself. Just think of where Webster would be if it weren't for you taking care of him the way you do.
 
Re: 11/23 Webster +11=425

Amy&TrixieCat said:
Sending prayers for a safe surf this time....Webster is probably one of the "best", most skilled divers we've had here :shock: !! You are doing awesome, Mike....you should really be proud of yourself. Just think of where Webster would be if it weren't for you taking care of him the way you do.
Click to expand...


Thank you Amy. :smile:
 
Morning Mike

I don't see a drop this morning. 425 and 399 are the same number :-D don't forget the 20% meter variance. Looks like he is not quite done with his bounce but I bet he's mulling over tonight's pj party and whether to have one.

To give you another example of a cat at a low dose that dives lately, look at my Gracie's SS. She's bren on lower doses and has taken a few dives. I've decreased the dose (never taken her off because it takes too much time to build the depot back) but whenever I've taken her off, she goes high and flat like Mikey.

I'm not really sure what causes the dives but enough cats do it that each of us learns how to manage it with our own cat. I know the big difference here is I've been doing it for years and we've gotten into a schedule and learned how to have a life although it isn't what it used to be.

I also wish I could tell you that I think Webster is ready to stop insulin right now....but I don't think that at this point. But the one thing you have to remember is that you hold the syringe and you make the decisions for your kitty. We can offer ideas and suggestions but Webster is your cat and once you make a decision, our "job" is to support you.

If you feel you need to stop the insulin to see what happens, then I'd just ask you to think of all the things that could possibly occur and all the scenarios. I'd be prepared to test ketones twice every single day religiously. I'm not saying I think it's a good idea to stop; I'm just saying really think about the pros and cons. Write them in this condo if it helps.

We are a support group. The decisions about his insulin are yours to make under consultation with your vet.
 
His numbers are climbing after his shot this morning even after only eating a little of his breakfast.

My thoughts are that he's bouncing from last nights drop or he's freaked out because we ran the vacuum this morning for over an hour trying to get the Diatomaceous Earth out of the carpet. (This is a completely different beast that we are currently dealing with) Btw, Never dust your carpets with DE for a flea problem. Everything in your house will be coated in dust and it is near impossible to vacuum up because the fine particles will instantly clog up your filter. Not to mention, you will be coughing up a lung for days. Bad idea.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
Morning Mike

I don't see a drop this morning. 425 and 399 are the same number :-D don't forget the 20% meter variance. Looks like he is not quite done with his bounce but I bet he's mulling over tonight's pj party and whether to have one.

To give you another example of a cat at a low dose that dives lately, look at my Gracie's SS. She's bren on lower doses and has taken a few dives. I've decreased the dose (never taken her off because it takes too much time to build the depot back) but whenever I've taken her off, she goes high and flat like Mikey.

I'm not really sure what causes the dives but enough cats do it that each of us learns how to manage it with our own cat. I know the big difference here is I've been doing it for years and we've gotten into a schedule and learned how to have a life although it isn't what it used to be.

I also wish I could tell you that I think Webster is ready to stop insulin right now....but I don't think that at this point. But the one thing you have to remember is that you hold the syringe and you make the decisions for your kitty. We can offer ideas and suggestions but Webster is your cat and once you make a decision, our "job" is to support you.

If you feel you need to stop the insulin to see what happens, then I'd just ask you to think of all the things that could possibly occur and all the scenarios. I'd be prepared to test ketones twice every single day religiously. I'm not saying I think it's a good idea to stop; I'm just saying really think about the pros and cons. Write them in this condo if it helps.

We are a support group. The decisions about his insulin are yours to make under consultation with your vet.
Click to expand...

Thank you Marje. I'm not ready to take him off at this point. My plan is to continue to give him the .25u for at least a few more cycles just to see what happens when the residual insulin from the higher dose wears off. Maybe he will stabilize by then. Just another guess.

If he continues to dive day after day then my thinking is that his dose is too high or he might not need insulin at all. He must be producing some level of insulin and maybe it's enough to take care of his lightened carb load. Maybe he just needs a drop of insulin.

I'm most likely not looking at this with a clear mind right now and I know that you guys have a lot more experience caring for cats with diabetes. I very difficult to handle the up and down stress that this has brought on.

I fear that taking him off might make the DKA return and I know... that's not pretty.

I do want everyone to know that I appreciate their support during such difficult times. I'm here to learn and to get Webster's health back on track.
 
tiffmaxee said:
It's likely a bounce. It should give you a well deserved break. Meanwhile I am in dive mode!!
Click to expand...

Wow.. You are in dive mode. I guess I'm not the only one dealing with such problems at the moment.
 
He's not diving today - often a little more information will change your perception of the picture.

I'd encourage you to do the things you can to control this and try desperately to let go of some of your expectations. For example, you can feed him small meals to spread out the burden on his pancreas and try to even out any dropping.

You can try to be consistent with his insulin dosage - that also will result in a more even cycle compared to changing doses or skipping doses.

If he were mine, that's what I would do. You handled the string of greens yesterday very well. You learned from doing it that Webster does respond well to carbs. You learned the poke-carb-poke dance. Even though you had to do it for a while, you did fine and the time went by.

You may be doing this for a while, Mike. After his last long stretch of green on 11/20, he spent the whole next day in bouncing. I'd look at that information and think that it would be very likely that he will spend that long or a little less in bouncing this time - so I'd give it a rest for the first 3/4 of this cycle and then test at +10 or so and see if he's still high. As he clears a bounce in the past 2 bounces, he's given you a high blue or a yellow as "serving notice" that the bounce is clearing. Watch for that today and then step up the testing. Until you see that, however, i'd take a break and go recharge your own batteries.

Sorry you're having such a struggle with vacuuming up the DE. We used it inside and didn't have a problem. We do have a HEPA filter on our vacuum cleaner, so maybe that was it. Perhaps it was too heavily distributed . . . I don't know. But did it get rid of your fleas? Remember you want to leave it on long enough to go through the life cycle. I don't remember what that is, but isn't it more like 3 weeks? You might want to leave whatever remains a bit longer.
 
Hi Mike,

How are you holding up. I think you should take the advice they give to new mothers - when the baby sleeps, you sleep. Sleep whenever you can, even if you constantly have to set an alarm. I'm finding the stress and sleep deprivation really hard to deal with too. It's also stressful that Don and I both work and are gone all day. I ended up one night calling Marje, who I've know for many years, in near hysterics. I told her I didn't think I could do this. She gently reminded me that I don't have a choice, and that when I look into Mikey's face, I'll see that he's depending on me to care for him. She was right. So, I'm doing what I have to do one day at a time. If I look much beyond that, I'll freak.

Mikey was diagnosed in mid October when we noticed him eating everything in sight, drinking and peeing a ton, and losing weight. We caught it very early, and fortunately, he did not have DKA, only trace ketones. Since I knew Marje, I called her right away. She recommended home testing, and sent me here. Mikey was originally eating Hill's CD dry. The vet gave me Purina DM dry, which I switched him to for a couple of days until I realized that it was complete garbage, and that dry food is just a bad idea all around. My vet still wants him on DM of some variety, but I'm not doing it. Period the end. Because of the price of the insulin, I needed to find a food that was inexpensive, so I tried FF. It was a challenge getting Mikey switched over, but we discovered that that was because he doesn't like chicken. (This cat is NOT normal!) Once we tried the Turkey, he did fine. Of course, then the numbers started tumbling down, and we had to reduce his dose a couple of times. Once we got down to 1 drop, we found that it wasn't enough. But .1 made him crash. The latest experiment has been to change him Friskies Turkey Pate, which is slightly higher in carbs than FF and raise the dose back to .1. We've been doing that this weekend, and so far so good. I'm totally a wreck about leaving him tomorrow, though, and I don't really have a choice. I can't leave food out in timed feeder, because either DK will eat it, or it will just sit there. Mikey is a bit of a narcoleptic, and once he settles down for a nap, that's that!

This is a very tough thing to deal with, but we both have to remember that we're not alone in this. This whole group has our backs. Webster and Mikey are worth all the sleepless nights and panicked moments. Hopefully, they will both be in remission soon, and we won't have to do this anymore. Even if they don't go into remission, and we have to keep at it, we have to remember that a day will come when will long for a sleepless night taking care of our beloved Webster and Mikey. Even the longest lived cat isn't with us long enough. We have to love them while we can. Hang in there. It's going to bet better.

Mary
 
Great post, Mary. You've come a long way, too, and I know, Mike, you will look back on this in a month and be proud of how far you've come whether Webster is still on insulin or not.
 
It is a dance w/ dips and spins. You did great yesterday and will continue to do so. Part of the drop yesterday could be carryover from the previous higher dose. Just as it takes time to build up the shed, it's only been a couple of cycles on the lower dose. Webster is bouncing, take advantage of it while you can, Sunday afternoon nap time.

As counterintuitive as it seems, Mary has a good point. You've drastically reduced his carbs, but balancing insulin and carbs can be tricky, sometime just a few more carbs can be the key to getting a good balance.
 
How is Webster doing tonight? How are you holding up, Mike? I automatically type your name as Mikey, then have to fix it. :lol: :lol: :lol:
 
julie & punkin (ga) said:
He's not diving today - often a little more information will change your perception of the picture.

I'd encourage you to do the things you can to control this and try desperately to let go of some of your expectations. For example, you can feed him small meals to spread out the burden on his pancreas and try to even out any dropping.

You can try to be consistent with his insulin dosage - that also will result in a more even cycle compared to changing doses or skipping doses.

If he were mine, that's what I would do. You handled the string of greens yesterday very well. You learned from doing it that Webster does respond well to carbs. You learned the poke-carb-poke dance. Even though you had to do it for a while, you did fine and the time went by.

You may be doing this for a while, Mike. After his last long stretch of green on 11/20, he spent the whole next day in bouncing. I'd look at that information and think that it would be very likely that he will spend that long or a little less in bouncing this time - so I'd give it a rest for the first 3/4 of this cycle and then test at +10 or so and see if he's still high. As he clears a bounce in the past 2 bounces, he's given you a high blue or a yellow as "serving notice" that the bounce is clearing. Watch for that today and then step up the testing. Until you see that, however, i'd take a break and go recharge your own batteries.

Sorry you're having such a struggle with vacuuming up the DE. We used it inside and didn't have a problem. We do have a HEPA filter on our vacuum cleaner, so maybe that was it. Perhaps it was too heavily distributed . . . I don't know. But did it get rid of your fleas? Remember you want to leave it on long enough to go through the life cycle. I don't remember what that is, but isn't it more like 3 weeks? You might want to leave whatever remains a bit longer.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the advice Julie. I have high expectations for Webster to make a full and hopefully a fast recovery. However, the reality is that he may be on insulin for a while - which is fine by me. The part that I wish would pass by is the consistent drops which are very stressful. Now that the bad food variable and antibiotic have been eliminated, we can focus on the two remaining variables which are food intake and insulin.

Moving forward, I plan to keep his dose at .25u and see where it goes. As I have learned here, the true effect of the new dose will not be seen for several cycles so I must wait it out.

As for the DE, I may have been excessive with the application. I sprinkled about 1 gallon of it over 1300 or so sqft. The shop vac picked up enough where the regular vac was able to handle it. Unfortunately, the microscopic DE particles clogged the filter once again and dust found it's way through the filter housing, broadcasting DE all over the house again. We left the house for a couple hours today to allow the dust to settle. Perhaps tomorrow I will clean out the filter with the air compressor and go another round and then shampoo the carpet. It may take several rounds but we will eventually get it up.

I would like to leave it down but every time that we walk a dust cloud stirs up and settles back down. I hear that constantly vacuuming and the immediately emptying the canister is an effective method.

And yes, I think that we have knocked back the live flea population. No bites since yesterday. The eggs, well that may become a different battle here in the next few days.
 
Marycatmom said:
Hi Mike,

How are you holding up. I think you should take the advice they give to new mothers - when the baby sleeps, you sleep. Sleep whenever you can, even if you constantly have to set an alarm. I'm finding the stress and sleep deprivation really hard to deal with too. It's also stressful that Don and I both work and are gone all day. I ended up one night calling Marje, who I've know for many years, in near hysterics. I told her I didn't think I could do this. She gently reminded me that I don't have a choice, and that when I look into Mikey's face, I'll see that he's depending on me to care for him. She was right. So, I'm doing what I have to do one day at a time. If I look much beyond that, I'll freak.

Mikey was diagnosed in mid October when we noticed him eating everything in sight, drinking and peeing a ton, and losing weight. We caught it very early, and fortunately, he did not have DKA, only trace ketones. Since I knew Marje, I called her right away. She recommended home testing, and sent me here. Mikey was originally eating Hill's CD dry. The vet gave me Purina DM dry, which I switched him to for a couple of days until I realized that it was complete garbage, and that dry food is just a bad idea all around. My vet still wants him on DM of some variety, but I'm not doing it. Period the end. Because of the price of the insulin, I needed to find a food that was inexpensive, so I tried FF. It was a challenge getting Mikey switched over, but we discovered that that was because he doesn't like chicken. (This cat is NOT normal!) Once we tried the Turkey, he did fine. Of course, then the numbers started tumbling down, and we had to reduce his dose a couple of times. Once we got down to 1 drop, we found that it wasn't enough. But .1 made him crash. The latest experiment has been to change him Friskies Turkey Pate, which is slightly higher in carbs than FF and raise the dose back to .1. We've been doing that this weekend, and so far so good. I'm totally a wreck about leaving him tomorrow, though, and I don't really have a choice. I can't leave food out in timed feeder, because either DK will eat it, or it will just sit there. Mikey is a bit of a narcoleptic, and once he settles down for a nap, that's that!

This is a very tough thing to deal with, but we both have to remember that we're not alone in this. This whole group has our backs. Webster and Mikey are worth all the sleepless nights and panicked moments. Hopefully, they will both be in remission soon, and we won't have to do this anymore. Even if they don't go into remission, and we have to keep at it, we have to remember that a day will come when will long for a sleepless night taking care of our beloved Webster and Mikey. Even the longest lived cat isn't with us long enough. We have to love them while we can. Hang in there. It's going to bet better.

Mary
Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing Mary. Most vets sure like to push that DM food don't they? The vet I recently went to showed me the DM food that he had and said that it was "good" but also mentioned that FF or Friskies is just as good. He prefers FF because they are 3oz cans I believe and he recommends 6 oz per day for his diabetic cats. Regular friskies cans are 5.5oz and if you were to split one can into 2 parts, it would short the cat 1/2oz of food.

Friskies special diet turkey and giblets pate seems to be Websters food of choice. At only 5% carbs and low phosphorous it seemed to be a good choice and he likes it.

Good luck with Mikey tomorrow. Thanks for the words of encouragement.
 
Marycatmom said:
How is Webster doing tonight? How are you holding up, Mike? I automatically type your name as Mikey, then have to fix it. :lol: :lol: :lol:
Click to expand...

Webster had a good day. His BG stayed pretty high, likely due to a bounce from yesterday in addition to being terrorized by the vacuum.

He didn't have much of an appetite at the beginning of the day. He ate a little and then we gave him his insulin. The wife and I finally made it out of the house and had a couple well deserved beers. When we came back we noticed that he had cleaned up the rest of his food while we were gone... I suppose by adding a little water to his food and giving him a wide bowl with steep edges he was able to grab a hold of his food. (thanks for the tip everyone!)

His appetite seemed fairly decent before his shot. He at at least 1/2 his meal. I'm expecting him to return to his food bowl betwen +1 and +2. It's very interesting. I have learned from testing that he drops during this time period. I suppose he starts to feel funny and heads for the food bowl.

Hopefully tonight is an easy night. Paws crossed! :razz:
 
I'm so glad you and your wife had a chance to get out and do something for YOU yesterday. You have done an amazing job taking care of Webster, and you more than deserved the break! I hope he surfed safely for you last night!
 
Hi Mike

I don't want you to worry about something else but you might want to try to limit how much dust/DE Webster inhales. As someone with an asthmatic cat I don't want Webster to have any sort of lung problems. In no way am I saying that the DE can cause asthma, I am just hyper sensitive when I read about dusty environments ;-)
 
Hi Mike

I don't want you to worry about something else but you might want to try to limit how much dust/DE Webster inhales. As someone with an asthmatic cat I don't want Webster to have any sort of lung problems. In no way am I saying that the DE can cause asthma, I am just hyper sensitive when I read about dusty environments ;-)
 
phlika29 said:
Hi Mike

I don't want you to worry about something else but you might want to try to limit how much dust/DE Webster inhales. As someone with an asthmatic cat I don't want Webster to have any sort of lung problems. In no way am I saying that the DE can cause asthma, I am just hyper sensitive when I read about dusty environments ;-)
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

While we were vacuuming up the DE we contained him in the bathroom with his litterbox and food for a couple hours to limit exposure.
 
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