11-22 Small Kitty - amps 346 - pmps 88 +1 81 +2 221 - Shot spot does matter

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Photorecon

Photorecon

Member Since 2016
Good morning all,

Not sure if it's the increase made 2 days ago (type of dose increase done before) or
the new spot for injection or anything else, but a new scenario has surface.
Unstead of bounces coming down slowly, lasting 2 cycle or something like that
then go up in the sky and taking 3 days to clear up, bonces are coming up right after shot with a duration of probably haft a cycle.

Yesterday, when talking about shot spot, Bobbie mention that when she wanted
to have a slow release she was using the scuff as a shot area. As teached
by the vet, shot area has always been the neck and his surrounding.

What I'm now wondering is if short bounces clear due to higher blood circulation carrying insulin and clearing bounce is better then a slow release by the neck.

In other words. if fast bounces clearing up with, a short relieve time is as good as one
cycle at low GL every two days.

I know, we have few data but this theory of short bounce is highly probable.
Might have found a solution for testing in mid cycle.

Anyhow, good day to everyone, wish you have an happy one.

Sébastien

Yesterday
 
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I don't know anything about the differences in insulin absorption and shot placement.

Photorecon said:
Can constantly interrupted and short healing passes still be of any value ?
Click to expand...
I think it can help them to spend time in normal numbers, even if it is just a short time. That is how their bodies get used to normal numbers. Bounces should get shorter and not as high as they get used to normal numbers. I don't think it is as bad for them to be in higher numbers from bounces as it is from just staying in high numbers.
 
I don't know if the absorption rates and areas to shoot are an exact science or not. My vet practice recommending not shooting there and showed me the shoulder area to shoot. Then on the boards there was a discussion about the different injection sites and someone mentioned slowing down the cycle by shooting the scruff. I tried it one PM when he was running really low thinking that I would get some sleep. It seemed to work.......but who knows?
 
Question of compromise I guess. Can't wait to get a curve to know if there
is multiple bounces within a day or if the duration out of the red is sufficient
for a new learning process...

Anyone around that knows if a faster insulin circulation can make such a major
change in numbers ? Lucky this came up and a member flashed that it could be
the broken gear. (don't remember who but thanks !!).

.
 
The other consideration is that even if shooting the same area, absorption rates can vary from day to day.

"
Q: Do insulin absorption rates vary from one person to another?

A: Yes. Some diabetics get 16-20 hours out of an NPH/Lente shot, while others get 8-12 hours. An individual can experience day to day variation of up to 50%, with the same dose. The same person, with the same dose and technique, may also see a day to day variation of 25-50% in time of insulin peak action."

https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/vodold/vow982.htm


There is really no way to be able to pinpoint the "best" shot location. Because insulin is a hormone and because the body is always in some sort of state of flux for one reason or another, it is impossible to predict what could happen within each cycle. All we can do is follow the dance steps.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
I don't know if the absorption rates and areas to shoot are an exact science or not. My vet practice recommending not shooting there and showed me the shoulder area to shoot. Then on the boards there was a discussion about the different injection sites and someone mentioned slowing down the cycle by shooting the scruff. I tried it one PM when he was running really low thinking that I would get some sleep. It seemed to work.......but who knows?
Click to expand...

The good thing is that you have plenty of room in the shoulder. The neck is pretty restricted in
surface area.

Who know if there is not a dose/shooting spot relationship... That would need one
chart per cat per dose with algorithm to calculate... almost impossible.

I now put the body part I performed the injection in the SS. Could be usefull.
.
 
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Tuxedo Mom said:
The other consideration is that even if shooting the same area, absorption rates can vary from day to day.

"
Q: Do insulin absorption rates vary from one person to another?

A: Yes. Some diabetics get 16-20 hours out of an NPH/Lente shot, while others get 8-12 hours. An individual can experience day to day variation of up to 50%, with the same dose. The same person, with the same dose and technique, may also see a day to day variation of 25-50% in time of insulin peak action."

https://nfb.org/Images/nfb/Publications/vodold/vow982.htm


There is really no way to be able to pinpoint the "best" shot location. Because insulin is a hormone and because the body is always in some sort of state of flux for one reason or another, it is impossible to predict what could happen within each cycle. All we can do is follow the dance steps.
Click to expand...

Good morning Mary-Ann,

You're right, I saw in the graph you posted yesterday that there it different layers :
-Skin
-Fat layer
-Muscle ?? or something like that.

The skin layer seems to be very thin. The fat layer is bigger but probably
offer more restriction in circulation...

Heck this can be kind of complex for a bouncy cat. At least we can see some
low numbers not as before there was only red for days.

Hope Small Kitty is a quick learner for the short time he spend in low
numbers..

.
 
Even with shooting the same spot with the exact same technique there can still be a difference in absorption rate from day to day...it is not always exactly the same. There are too many variables to be able to control.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
Even with shooting the same spot with the exact same technique there can still be a difference in absorption rate from day to day...it is not always exactly the same. There are too many variables to be able to control.
Click to expand...
I think one could go crazy trying to figure it all out. And this FD dance is crazy enough. :eek:
 
I know you like data and sleuthing Sebastien will be interesting to see what you find out..remember you need to keep shooting the correct dose as you gather your data! :)
I did find the sides of Gussie worked better for us. I don't know if it was better absorption or I just got a better shot in but that's where I did best.
Happy sleuthing!:):bighug:
 
Just to show how little control we have over absorption. This is a human information site but still shows that there is SO much more going on than just injecting insulin.

"The site of injection can be critical. It can take up to 50% longer for insulin to be absorbed from the leg than from the abdomen (or stomach area). Not only does the time for absorption of insulin vary with the site, but so does the total amount absorbed. Regular insulin peaks in the bloodstream about 90-120 minutes after it is injected into the thigh. Because of the subcutaneous enzymes, only about 60-65% of the insulin is absorbed. After injection into the arm, it peaks in about 75 minutes whereas an injection into the abdomen takes only 60 minutes. Because the insulin is absorbed faster from the abdomen, less is destroyed by the subcutaneous enzymes. Thus, regular insulin injected into the abdomen may be up to 25% more powerful than the same amount of insulin injected into a thigh."

https://www.diabeteshealth.com/when-does-insulin-start-working-many-factors-affect-absorption/


So after insulin is injected there is also the body's own mechanisms ...ie..subcutaneous enzymes work at destroying the full effect of the insulin, this can vary day to day as well.


Another article that discusses subcutaneous enzymes as well as many other factors...a good read if you are interested in this sort of thing:


https://www.diabeteshealth.com/everything-you-wanted-to-know-about-insulin/


All in all a lot of what happens is a crap shoot. You follow the appropriate protocols, but there is no cause/effect/results written in stone. This is why the sugar dance in some ways is like playing musical chairs...you have to just go with the flow.
 
Gussie's mom said:
I know you like data and sleuthing Sebastien will be interesting to see what you find out..remember you need to keep shooting the correct dose as you gather your data! :)
I did find the sides of Gussie worked better for us. I don't know if it was better absorption or I just got a better shot in but that's where I did best.
Happy sleuthing!:):bighug:
Click to expand...

I found out what is defining the speed absorption of insulin throw multiple researches :

The most important aspects are the fat layer thickness and if it's on or close to muscles pathways.

The fat layer reduce insulin rate of absorption and the muscles increase the circulation speed of
the blood carrying the insulin.

upload_2016-11-22_13-50-50.png


The little bobbles on the graph are fat, some skin parts have more on top of the blood vessels.
The muscles are on the top left, some skin regions have more of these (like the shoulders).
My presumption is that the scuff and neck have more fat and less muscles reducing absorption
and speed. The shoulders have little fat and lots of blood vessel explaining the fast
absorption rate. The side of the chest, little fat, fewer muscle.... and so on...

In conclusion, it varies from one cat to the other, from the fat level at a specific time,
the exercise level, stress......

.
 
Photorecon said:
I found out what is defining the speed absorption of insulin throw multiple researches :

The most important aspects are the fat layer thickness and if it's on or close to muscles pathways.

The fat layer reduce insulin rate of absorption and the muscles increase the circulation speed of
the blood carrying the insulin.

View attachment 24447

The little bobbles on the graph are fat, some skin parts have more on top of the blood vessels.
The muscles are on the top left, some skin regions have more of these (like the shoulders).
My presumption is that the scuff and neck have more fat and less muscles reducing absorption
and speed. The shoulders have little fat and lots of blood vessel explaining the fast
absorption rate. The side of the chest, little fat, fewer muscle.... and so on...

In conclusion, it varies from one cat to the other, from the fat level at a specific time,
the exercise level, stress......

.
Click to expand...
Interesting!
 
Now this is more then surprising... In the green at preshot, Small Kitty :eek::eek::eek::eek:
Shoulder shots are indeed effective...

We'll not complain :D:D:D:D:D

As it's a NS I'll stall him with little bit of chicken to see where he's heading.
.
 
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Ok, this is indeed very strange, +1 and he's falling. Only raw chicken with bone given at pmps.
+1 Gave full portion LC but added MC in it and will keep on watching.

Should I reduce to more then .25 for tomorrow ? He'll be alone.
.
 
Sebastian

You should take the 1/4 unit decrease for the morning for sure. Other than that I would expect SK to be bouncing up high again from the no shot tonight AND the lower greens. You can test in the morning and post for advice, but there is a strong chance that his numbers will be much higher by then,

You never know what our kitties are going to do.
 
Tuxedo Mom said:
Sebastian

You should take the 1/4 unit decrease for the morning for sure. Other than that I would expect SK to be bouncing up high again from the no shot tonight AND the lower greens. You can test in the morning and post for advice, but there is a strong chance that his numbers will be much higher by then,

You never know what our kitties are going to do.
Click to expand...

Makes sens, he's already rising... the MC addition might just have scrapped the surf..... :(

Thanks for your reply, sorry for disturbing all members at every turn.. This road
is not familiar to me, I'm used to red lights at every cross roads :)
.
 
Photorecon said:
Makes sens, he's already rising... the MC addition might just have scrapped the surf..... :(
Click to expand...


With a no shot it stands to reason that he was going to go higher. As I said by morning you will most likely see quite high numbers again so the 1/4 unit reduction should be good. But if you have any question or concern about it in the morning just post for help. I will try to look in around your normal shot time :bighug:
 
Congrats on the reduction. Sorry about the bounce.

Interesting discussion today. The other thing to remember is that insulin is a hormone, not a drug. You can't expect the same reaction all the time, even if you could control the rest of the variables.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Congrats on the reduction. Sorry about the bounce.

Interesting discussion today. The other thing to remember is that insulin is a hormone, not a drug. You can't expect the same reaction all the time, even if you could control the rest of the variables.
Click to expand...

I like everything related to science and usually can understand things that can be
understood. If you do a google search with the keywords ''insulin absorption mechanism''
and you click on image you'll fall on your back... Better to apply written rules and not
dig too deep :bookworm::bookworm:
 
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