11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=265

[Websterthecat]

Another fun day yesterday. Started off good and went south in the evening. viewtopic.php?f=9&t=128725

Woke up and checked his BG numbers @ +11 then weighed his food and water. Doesn't look like he ate anything last night yet drank very little water. Before his shot this morning I was able to interest him in a little fresh LC wet food, a little freeze dried chicken, and a little Gerber Turkey. I'm glad that he at least ate something prior to his insulin shot.

He seemed to have a reasonable appetite for dry food last night. He ate 1/4 oz dry, no wet, a few treats and he drank 2.5 fl oz of water, all within the two and a half hour period that I started to measure his food and water. You should be able to see my food and water spreadsheet if you click on my signature link and click on the "Food & Water" tab.

I'm hoping for an easy day but his lack of appetite will likely cause rapid BG drop. His vet appointment is in 4 hours which should be around his insulin peak. It might be another one of those days.

I plan to seek anti-nausea & app stimulant(get in case needed) also Probiotic while at the vet today. I believe that the plan that we came up with yesterday was to start with the AN and Fortiflora and switch to stimulant if necessary.

 

[tiffmaxee]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster

That is a good plan. Some like the appetite mirtazapine while others like me like cyproheptadine. Tons of people use mirt without problems but it can cause serotonin syndrome and cyproheptadine is the anecdote for it. I also like that cypro can be given as often as twice a day. My very large Max needs just 1/8 of a 4mg cypro to stimulate his appetite once a day. I strongly suspect Webster is nauseous and will benefit from ondansetron. Your vet might likely want you to use cerenia for nausea which works for many as well but lots of us find cerenia works well for vomiting and ondansetron for nausea. ECID though and for some cerenia is the one that works best for both. It's another trial and error thing. You can't go wrong with whichever one you start with but just know that if what you try doesn't work its magic you can up the dose with your vet's guidance or switch to the other drugs. If you get cerenia you might want to start with an injection as it works the best. Injections can be given at home as well but they sting many cats. I hope you have a good vet visit.

 

[Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492

Hi Mike,
I can't comment on the appetite stimulants because I have never used them (I may need them soon, however!). I hope you can get Webster to have more interest in the canned food. It is so much better for him. Have you tried the Fancy Feast Classic Paté varieties? Most cats really like these. Elizabeth Hodgkins D.V.M., the author of "Your Cat", states that even the cheapest canned food is much better for cats and is species appropriate, whereas dry kibble is the equivalent of "junk food". Good luck in the transition!

Wishing you and Webster a good visit with your vet today.

Ella & Rusty

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster

That is a good plan. Some like the appetite mirtazapine while others like me like cyproheptadine. Tons of people use mirt without problems but it can cause serotonin syndrome and cyproheptadine is the anecdote for it. I also like that cypro can be given as often as twice a day. My very large Max needs just 1/8 of a 4mg cypro to stimulate his appetite once a day. I strongly suspect Webster is nauseous and will benefit from ondansetron. Your vet might likely want you to use cerenia for nausea which works for many as well but lots of us find cerenia works well for vomiting and ondansetron for nausea. ECID though and for some cerenia is the one that works best for both. It's another trial and error thing. You can't go wrong with whichever one you start with but just know that if what you try doesn't work its magic you can up the dose with your vet's guidance or switch to the other drugs. If you get cerenia you might want to start with an injection as it works the best. Injections can be given at home as well but they sting many cats. I hope you have a good vet visit.

Thank you. Got it all written down. I think I'm going to request cyproheptadine & ondansetron when we go in today. Will let you know how it goes.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492

Hi Mike,
I can't comment on the appetite stimulants because I have never used them (I may need them soon, however!). I hope you can get Webster to have more interest in the canned food. It is so much better for him. Have you tried the Fancy Feast Classic Paté varieties? Most cats really like these. Elizabeth Hodgkins D.V.M., the author of "Your Cat", states that even the cheapest canned food is much better for cats and is species appropriate, whereas dry kibble is the equivalent of "junk food". Good luck in the transition!

Wishing you and Webster a good visit with your vet today.

Ella & Rusty

Absolutely. The goal is to get him transitioned. At the moment I am concerned that taking insulin on a empty or near empty stomach is causing him to crash hard as we have seen. I would rather offer him both at the moment just so he will eat something.

I'm going to pick up some FF classic Paté today and see what happens. Thanks for suggesting.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362

+2=362 - Crashing hard again.

I just weighed his food. He has eaten 1/4 cup of dry food, a taste of LC food, a couple temptation treats, a couple FD chicken treats in the past 2 hours. Hope this slows down on its own...

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362

What should I do when he's coming down like this and has eaten 1/4 cup of dry food in the past 1-2 hours. I know that dry takes longer to metabolize. If i try to give him LC or MC wet food and he refuses should I start giving treats dipped in karo? Should I just let him go and wait for the dry food that he ate to kick in?

UPDATE: I may have finally found a 21% carb food that interests him - Friskies Tasty Treasures Turkey and Cheese in gravy. He ate the gravy all around the top but seems to not like the texture of the shredded meat very much.

 

[tiffmaxee]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362

BTW my Max is 16 pounds and won't move much either. His only exercise in hi younger years was chasing Tiffany and he would bat around a plastic straw. He had gained about 1 1/2 pounds in the last year with my feeding him to stop the BG drops. I'm desperately trying to get him to lose weight. No luck so far!

 

[rhiannon and shadow (GA)]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270

My cat used to love those shreds....

You can chop it smaller with a fork. I have to cut up Tiki cat like that for mine ( since she doesn't have teeth)
I also have a mini food processor that I can make pate out of different cans.


The things we do for our cats.... :lol: :roll:

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270

My cat used to love those shreds....

You can chop it smaller with a fork. I have to cut up Tiki cat like that for mine ( since she doesn't have teeth)
I also have a mini food processor that I can make pate out of different cans.


The things we do for our cats.... :lol: :roll:

Yes, I thinking that he has a hard time chewing such food. I will chop up the reset of the can into a pate.

Looks like Webster might be slowing down a bit. I really hope this levels off. I have a vet appointment in 1.5 hours.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270

I definitely think not eating much contributes to him dropping. Do you think he's not eating because he still doesn't feel well, or there is a dental issue, or he is not wanting to give up the dry? I'm glad you found a HC he will at least eat the gravy from and I hope by chopping up the meat, he'll eat that as well.

Good luck at the vet's office. Pls keep us updated.

BTW, I am sure someone probably mentioned it, but you can get injectable ondansetron at thriving pets. The link will take you there. Scroll down and look for the 2 mg/ml 10 ml vial. That is the cheapest way to get it and I like that it's injectable because if a kitty is vomiting as well, they can't keep the pill down. Also, splitting the 4mg pill is not so fun (it's a small pill and the normal dose is 1 mg bid or 1/4 of the 4 mg pill). You'll need a prescription for the 2mg/ml injectable....exactly like that. If the script is for pills, you can't get the injectable. Thriving pets is pretty fast. You could get two scripts....one for just a few 4mg pills that you could get at Costco to hold you over until the injectable comes. Your vet can probably convert the dosage of the injectable to units and you can use a 31g insulin syringe to give it.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

Looks like the gravy (perhaps the 1/4 cup of dry food earlier) kicked in and he is seems to be surfing along. It's been around 2 hours since he last ate. I think we are vet bound. :smile:

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

Good luck!!

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270

I definitely think not eating much contributes to him dropping. Do you think he's not eating because he still doesn't feel well, or there is a dental issue, or he is not wanting to give up the dry? I'm glad you found a HC he will at least eat the gravy from and I hope by chopping up the meat, he'll eat that as well.

Good luck at the vet's office. Pls keep us updated.

BTW, I am sure someone probably mentioned it, but you can get injectable ondansetron at thriving pets. The link will take you there. Scroll down and look for the 2 mg/ml 10 ml vial. That is the cheapest way to get it and I like that it's injectable because if a kitty is vomiting as well, they can't keep the pill down. Also, splitting the 4mg pill is not so fun (it's a small pill and the normal dose is 1 mg bid or 1/4 of the 4 mg pill). You'll need a prescription for the 2mg/ml injectable....exactly like that. If the script is for pills, you can't get the injectable. Thriving pets is pretty fast. You could get two scripts....one for just a few 4mg pills that you could get at Costco to hold you over until the injectable comes. Your vet can probably convert the dosage of the injectable to units and you can use a 31g insulin syringe to give it.

Thank you. I don't believe anyone mentioned the injectable type. I'm sure that it would be easier than trying to get him to swallow something. Wrote it down and will speak with vet about it.

As for eating, I'm not sure about dental. I have noticed that since we had him he crunches his dry food and always leaves a mess of crumbs around his bowl. Not sure if that indicates anything. Will mention this to the vet.

I doubt its because hes not wanting to give up the dry. I have always left a bowl of dry out since he came home to give him that option. I rather him eat the bad stuff than not eat at all. I'm trying to make the switch but don't want to see him not eat, especially at a critical time such as now after DKA.

My best guess is that he's still not 100% or I'm underestimating his food consumption. I just started to measure it last night so we will see.

It seems like maybe pre shot his BG's are high and he's not hungry. When he gets his shot and the cycle starts over his BG starts to drop off and then he heads to the food bowl. Whats your thoughts?

 

[tiffmaxee]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

Max has been that way about eating at preshot. He usually gets hungry by +1. I give him the baby food at pre-shot and then put out fresh food starting at +1. Does he go to the bowl and then walk away or not even go near the food? If he acts hungry but won't eat it is likely nausea. Since you leave the dry out all the time I really think it is likely nausea and I hate to mention it but perhaps a little pancreatitis. The nausea med should take care of it if that is what it is.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

any news from the vet appt?

I agree that Webster not eating enough might be the reason for his numbers dropping quickly, but i also think that he's starting at a higher level because of the dry food. Yesterday you said something about feeling better about shooting him because he was higher. Starting higher is a factor in the big drops. When a cat's BGs are lower when you shoot, they often don't plummet.

You're balancing factors, and while you're absolutely right that he has to eat enough, if there is any way to work off of that dry food i think you're going to see things improve. Ella's point is well-taken - often people don't realize how much dry food can raise BGs.

This isn't your situation, but we had a cat a few months ago, Scooter, who was thought to not even be eating dry food. When his person got rid of all the dry food, Scooter went from 5.5u per shot to off of insulin in one very long day. No one fed it to him, it was just what he found around the house that the other kitties hadn't eaten. Dry food is powerful stuff.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

any news from the vet appt?

I agree that Webster not eating enough might be the reason for his numbers dropping quickly, but i also think that he's starting at a higher level because of the dry food. Yesterday you said something about feeling better about shooting him because he was higher. Starting higher is a factor in the big drops. When a cat's BGs are lower when you shoot, they often don't plummet.

You're balancing factors, and while you're absolutely right that he has to eat enough, if there is any way to work off of that dry food i think you're going to see things improve. Ella's point is well-taken - often people don't realize how much dry food can raise BGs.

This isn't your situation, but we had a cat a few months ago, Scooter, who was thought to not even be eating dry food. When his person got rid of all the dry food, Scooter went from 5.5u per shot to off of insulin in one very long day. No one fed it to him, it was just what he found around the house that the other kitties hadn't eaten. Dry food is powerful stuff.

Went to the vet today. I created another thread in the Main FDBM forum. viewtopic.php?f=28&t=128806

The abbreviated version of this post was that the vet seemed knowledgeable when it comes to feline diabetes. He has 3 pets, 2 happened to be diabetic cats.

He was a proponent of home testing (although he told me to chill out with the testing for the sake of my health) and advised to get Webster off the dry food right now. His advice: take away all food until "feeding time" before insulin. Play hardball and only give in to dry food as a last resort so that he has something before his shot.

His approach was a bit more relaxed - test preshot and somewhere in the middle. I understand the importance of catching a crash and stopping it but he didn't seem too concerned given the smaller dose, as long as he ate something and BG was above 100.

In many way I agree with him. I really need to watch my own health because I am literally on the brink of insanity and that's not an overstatement. He tried to reassure me that he started most cats at 1u-1.5u who's owners must leave the house for work each day and all of their cats have been fine, many went into remission.

I still believe that close monitoring and adjusting will give Webster the best chances of going into remission, however, I'm still trying to figure out where to draw the line between worrying about him and keeping my sanity. This is going to be a very difficult decision for me. :-|

On the brighter side, I think I may have discovered why Webster only eats a little of his new wet food... Simply because its hard for him to pick up. Before his shot tonight I put down his new wet food that he's showing interest in and he licked all the gravy off then stopped. I sprinkled fortiflora and he licked some more and walked away. I then started picking up pea sized balls of it and putting it on my fingertip. What do you know.. he ate 1/2 of his dinner from my finger. It was a slow process but I didn't mind because he was eating good wet food and seemed to be enjoying it!

His PMPS was up there (556). Hopefully things will calm down now that the antibiotic is not being administered (vet said no more AB, hes been taking at least 7 days) and he has low carb food in his belly.

Any suggestions as far as issues picking up the food? I found that he doesn't seem at all interested in shredded food. I though I read somewhere to roll the pate into meatballs?

 

[tiffmaxee]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

Licking the food can be a sign of nausea. I didn't know that until Tiffany started doing that. I thought she was just being picky. I take it your vet doesn't think Webster could be nauseous? When Max had to eat canned food after he blocked I rolled the food into balls as well. If I am right and nausea is the problem it might be from the antibiotic and disappear as quickly as it started without the need for any meds. I hope so.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

punkin had trouble getting the food up off the plate sometimes too. you could try separating it out on the plate in little balls/piles and see if he can get it that way. adding water . . . on the one hand it is important for him for moisture, and maybe he can lick it better, but on the other hand i think it likely makes it harder to get up a quantity in his mouth at once. You might try some on the plate without added water and see if that helps.

My best advice is to try not to look at the big picture and just focus on the next thing you need to do. It's easy to get overwhelmed if you have too big of a picture. You can do anything one step at a time. That's been my motto in life for a long time - I can do anything for a while. It's true - you are stronger than you think you are. Don't make it more than it is, ie, don't let yourself dramatize it. I"m not saying that you are doing that, I'm just saying that it's a way to cope with anything.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

Licking the food can be a sign of nausea. I didn't know that until Tiffany started doing that. I thought she was just being picky. I take it your vet doesn't think Webster could be nauseous? When Max had to eat canned food after he blocked I rolled the food into balls as well. If I am right and nausea is the problem it might be from the antibiotic and disappear as quickly as it started without the need for any meds. I hope so.

I mentioned nausea and he said that it was possible but didn't want to immediately write for meds. He said to try getting him on a feeding schedule and see how he's doing. He agreed to write for a stimulant and AN if he appetite doesn't improve. We started with the fortiflora sprinkled on top of his food. We also stopped the AB this evening. He seemed interested in food tonight but could only eat it if I helped him get it out of the bowl because he's never eaten can food before. I'm going to make him a bunch of balls in the morning or rake it into piles with a fork.

So far he looks okay and is holding down his food. I'm keeping an eye on his BG's

 

[JuJu09]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

My apologies, I missed this from yesterday...

Thanks for sharing. Was your JuJu a grazer before discovering his diabetes?

Yes. We free fed our cats kibble because we didn't know better. Now they only get wet food and we're feeding approximately every 4 hrs. That seems to work best for JuJu.


Glad you found a good vet and the visit went well. Keep up the great work.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

My apologies, I missed this from yesterday...

Thanks for sharing. Was your JuJu a grazer before discovering his diabetes?

Yes. We free fed our cats kibble because we didn't know better. Now they only get wet food and we're feeding approximately every 4 hrs. That seems to work best for JuJu.


Glad you found a good vet and the visit went well. Keep up the great work.

Yes, I feel that it went much better than expected. However, we didn't exactly see eye-to-eye on regular monitoring. He was totally relaxed about it while I still feel that testing on a regular basis is important.

Right now we took the AB out of the equation as well as all dry food. This transition is a crucial moment because his BG's might become low. I'm going to keep an eye on his BG tongiht. Hopefully things will level off in the next couple days as we are only going to be dealing with two main variables - Insulin dose and food.

I might take the Dr's advice and "relax" a bit, only testing 2 time per day and doing a weekly curve, once I feel as if hes stable. Right now, I don't feel like that's a good idea. Will have to play it by ear.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

punkin had trouble getting the food up off the plate sometimes too. you could try separating it out on the plate in little balls/piles and see if he can get it that way. adding water . . . on the one hand it is important for him for moisture, and maybe he can lick it better, but on the other hand i think it likely makes it harder to get up a quantity in his mouth at once. You might try some on the plate without added water and see if that helps.

My best advice is to try not to look at the big picture and just focus on the next thing you need to do. It's easy to get overwhelmed if you have too big of a picture. You can do anything one step at a time. That's been my motto in life for a long time - I can do anything for a while. It's true - you are stronger than you think you are. Don't make it more than it is, ie, don't let yourself dramatize it. I"m not saying that you are doing that, I'm just saying that it's a way to cope with anything.

Thank you for the advice on the food. I'm going to try raking it into piles tomorrow. If unable to eat I will make into balls. If still unable I will have him eat off the tip of my finger as he did today.

I totally understand what you mean as far as not looking at the big picture. The problem is, I'm a planner and think things through days, weeks, months and even years ahead. It doesn't help that I have developed an anxiety problem in recent years.

Moving forward, as I mentioned in my previous post, I'm going to keep a close eye on him during the transition into low carb food. Hopefully his numbers become more stable. Thanks for all your help so far. :smile:

 

[BJM]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

...He seemed interested in food tonight but could only eat it if I helped him get it out of the bowl because he's never eaten can food before. ...

How shallow is the bowl? Cats don't generally like to bury their heads in a bowl(they can't see over the rim), so a wide, shallow bowl or plate can work better.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

...He seemed interested in food tonight but could only eat it if I helped him get it out of the bowl because he's never eaten can food before. ...

How shallow is the bowl? Cats don't generally like to bury their heads in a bowl(they can't see over the rim), so a wide, shallow bowl or plate can work better.

My wife and I were just talking about this. His bowl may have been too narrow and deep to stick his head in. I'm going to try a plate tomorrow and make piles or balls.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

Mike, for what it's worth, I think you're being smart about the testing. I would do the same thing. Your instincts are right on.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

Mike, for what it's worth, I think you're being smart about the testing. I would do the same thing. Your instincts are right on.

Thank you!

 

[Amy&TrixieCat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

I might take the Dr's advice and "relax" a bit, only testing 2 time per day and doing a weekly curve, once I feel as if hes stable. Right now, I don't feel like that's a good idea. Will have to play it by ear.

I'm sure your vet can feel your stress with regards to worrying about Webster, and that is one reason he is encouraging you to cut back on testing. Honestly, I would strongly encourage you to get at least 4 tests a day, even once Webster has settled in - a pre-shot test, and one mid-cycle test, just to be safe. Even with a regulated kitty, you just never really know - for reasons unknown, things can change in either direction at a drop of a hat, and you want to be sure Webster is safe. We've seen cats here start with a PS in the 400s, owners assume that the cat won't drop into dangerous numbers with a high start, and before you know it, the same cat is in the low 40s a few hours later. While "many cats" can be fine all day on a random dose, you don't want YOUR cat to be the one who ISN'T fine all day, especially since we know what Webster can do with a little bit of insulin. (I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh - vets who are casual about insulin do make me a bit edgy.)

You will definitely eventually get a feel for Webster's rhythms and this whole thing really does get much, much less stressful - I promise!

Like you, I tend to try and figure things out far in advance...but I agree with Julie - that can make this FD dance very overwhelming. Make small goals and check them off the list as you achieve them. One step at a time. First focus on the food and reigning in Webster's numbers; then work towards thinking about remission.

 

[Websterthecat]

Re: 11/21 (+11=488) AMPS=NA Webster +1=492 +2=362 +3=270 +4=

I might take the Dr's advice and "relax" a bit, only testing 2 time per day and doing a weekly curve, once I feel as if hes stable. Right now, I don't feel like that's a good idea. Will have to play it by ear.

I'm sure your vet can feel your stress with regards to worrying about Webster, and that is one reason he is encouraging you to cut back on testing. Honestly, I would strongly encourage you to get at least 4 tests a day, even once Webster has settled in - a pre-shot test, and one mid-cycle test, just to be safe. Even with a regulated kitty, you just never really know - for reasons unknown, things can change in either direction at a drop of a hat, and you want to be sure Webster is safe. We've seen cats here start with a PS in the 400s, owners assume that the cat won't drop into dangerous numbers with a high start, and before you know it, the same cat is in the low 40s a few hours later. While "many cats" can be fine all day on a random dose, you don't want YOUR cat to be the one who ISN'T fine all day, especially since we know what Webster can do with a little bit of insulin. (I'm sorry, I don't mean to sound harsh - vets who are casual about insulin do make me a bit edgy.)

You will definitely eventually get a feel for Webster's rhythms and this whole thing really does get much, much less stressful - I promise!

Like you, I tend to try and figure things out far in advance...but I agree with Julie - that can make this FD dance very overwhelming. Make small goals and check them off the list as you achieve them. One step at a time. First focus on the food and reigning in Webster's numbers; then work towards thinking about remission.

I completely understand what you are saying as I understand the importance. I believe that most vets are accustom to working with people who are away from the house 8-10 hours per day, making anything but a AM,PM, and perhaps a +1 an impossible task so the prescribe the ole Ronco method of "stetting it and forgetting it".