11/20 Tubby AMPS - 276

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Shawny2u

Member Since 2010
Thank you all for listening and participating. I did buy a bag of 10 syringes, 3/10 cc with 30 units but they have 10 lines in every 5 units.
I suppose that means they are with 1/2 unit markers.
Tubby's numbers are moving south for the first time and I'll be monitoring him tonight, I am excited yet it's to early to pass a judgement.
The numbers will be posted as I go along, hopefully someone is watching as it might approach the normal range sometime soon. My wild guess
would be in the next few days but again its just my hunch.

Above was cut and paste from my last posting in the previous page.

Good morning,
After carefully reviewing several cases of diabetic cats with similar ordeal and taking into consideration many inputs I have gotten here in the past week along with
Tubby's vet recommendations I decided 0.5 unit increase is the most adequate in a conservative step forward.
As you have observed Tubby is beginning to respond positively in the right direction. This increase of 0.5 might seem too much to some members here as oppose to 0.25
unit raise but I believe and hope is the right move at this juncture. The outcome is remain to be seen!
I will anxiously monitoring his progress or lack of as we continue this painful journey. I hope the good people here keep their kind contributions and prayers with me and Tubby as they
have in the past despite our constructive disagreements.

With best regards,
Shawn
 
Shawn

Thanks for posting today and in the normal manner in which we post...it is very helpful when scrolling through condos. This is a nice AMPS for Tubby. I can't comment on the increase...up to the more experienced people to do that but we are a family and we welcome you and Tubby and we absolutely wish the best for Tubby and his progress!! Have a great day.
 
hooray for heading toward good numbers.

and love the phrase "constructive disagreements"

gotta love a chubby cubby named tubby...(apologies if you are not chubby, tubby..but it did rhyme) :-D

celi & binks
 
Marjorie and Gracie said:
Shawn

Thanks for posting today and in the normal manner in which we post...it is very helpful when scrolling through condos. This is a nice AMPS for Tubby. I can't comment on the increase...up to the more experienced people to do that but we are a family and we welcome you and Tubby and we absolutely wish the best for Tubby and his progress!! Have a great day.
Click to expand...


Thank you Marjorie, very kind of you! looks like Tubby is fluctuating I have a feeling his spike might partly be due to food but can't be sure.
 
Hi Shawn~~and Welcome to Lantus to you and Tubby! :mrgreen:
Here is the link to your last condo: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=29732

We put a link to the previous condo in our first post of each day...so anyone can click and read what transpired the day before.
And, I am going to go back and read that now but I wanted to say welcome!
Nice yellows for Tubby!! It is so nice to see sunshiny yellow. :-D
 
mybuddybinks said:
hooray for heading toward good numbers.

and love the phrase "constructive disagreements"

gotta love a chubby cubby named tubby...(apologies if you are not chubby, tubby..but it did rhyme) :-D

celi & binks
Click to expand...

No apologies necessary, there's a lot of truth to your rhyme and I find it humorous :lol: After all Tub Tub is little shy of 20LB!
But seriously he needs to shed some of the extra pounds, his constant hunger makes it difficult to achieve that goal.
I have not come up with a suitable diet program to curb his appetite and frankly his ferocious hunger is a major obstacle.
I don't know if there are certain rules to follow as how often and to what amount of food he should be allowed.
keeping in mind that he is a large framed cat of bangles descendant, I have a feeling he might be suffering from eating disorder as well.
I'll welcome any thoughts that could help his diet.
 
Pat+Raja+Shadow said:
Hi Shawn~~and Welcome to Lantus to you and Tubby! :mrgreen:
Here is the link to your last condo: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... =9&t=29732

We put a link to the previous condo in our first post of each day...so anyone can click and read what transpired the day before.
And, I am going to go back and read that now but I wanted to say welcome!
Nice yellows for Tubby!! It is so nice to see sunshiny yellow. :-D[/quote


Thank you, you're very kind, Tubby and I are very happy to be here!
Click to expand...
 
Marjorie and Gracie said:
Shawn

Thanks for posting today and in the normal manner in which we post...it is very helpful when scrolling through condos. This is a nice AMPS for Tubby. I can't comment on the increase...up to the more experienced people to do that but we are a family and we welcome you and Tubby and we absolutely wish the best for Tubby and his progress!! Have a great day.
Click to expand...

Wow... you guys are super nice and warm with your kind remarks welcoming us to your community, I'm overwhelmed! Thank you very much.
 
I'm back :-D
I read that you feed Tubby lc FF and some chicken breasts....great!
He was diagnosed with hyperthyroid and cardiomyopathy about a year ago and is on a few meds...
methimazole, benazipril and lasix

Can you tell me the date of FD diagnosis? You have only been on Lantus so far, right?

Here is a link to a Tech Support Forum post about the Profile: viewtopic.php?f=6&t=17766

After reading some of your previous posts, I bet you were happy to see some lower numbers today. A word about that. When our kitties have been used to higher numbers, even a yellow number can cause their liver to panic and dump hormones into the system which raise the BGs. We try to bite the bullet and ignore the jumps in BGs ...but you will hear people all complaining about the "Bounce" as it is called. It is just part of the dance, so don't be alarmed when you see the higher numbers. It is a constant movement up and down of the BGs ....low numbers affect the later ones and food and the time since insulin all affect the numbers. They Bounce until one day, they don't bounce any more! :razz:

You are doing a great job of testing! Do you have any specific questions after reading the stickies? We would be happy to answer your concerns. I do want to point out the Hypo information on the "New to the Group" sticky. We use the gravy from high carb foods >18% to bring up any low green numbers. In order to earn a dose reduction, the kitty has to go below 50 and then we give the gravy alone to bring them up a little higher. We don't want to fill them up too much, so we only give the gravy. Please have a supply of canned >18% gravy foods on hand as well as karo syrup. sometimes that is given by the drop also to raise the numbers.

Whenever you get a reading that is unusually low, you can post here and someone will help you, okay?

We hope you will visit other condos too and say hello....see what is going on with other kitties here on LL. We look for the 5 ps each day: Purring Pooping, Peeing, Preening and Playing and report on how many we notice. Our kitties are a lot more than just their BG numbers. Thought I'd mention that to you at the get go!

My heart goes out to you and Tubby with the other physical issues you are dealing with. That is a lot of meds and now the insulin. I hope that we can help you two along in your FD journey! I am so happy you are here! :mrgreen:
 
Shawn...about the food. Before they are dx and the FD is causing symptoms like constant drinking and peeing, they are basically starving. Their body is unable to utilize the nutrients in the food. When we start giving them the needed insulin, the body eventually adjusts and if they need to put on weight, they do. If they need to loose weight, sometimes they do.
I recall how hungry my Shadow was at dx and before. I thought I would never be able to give him enough food!!!
It was crazy...but he was ravenously hungry all the time. The best thing to do is to feed them.

Soon, with the insulin at work in their bodies each day, the hunger returns to normal. I found that Shadow's fur became very soft ans shiny with no dandruff. Quite an improvement over previously.
There will be time later to figure out if you need to curtail his calories a little, but for now, my suggestions is that you feed his hunger. It would be good to note it in your SS too so that you can compare later on....
 
And a very warm welcome to the LL "machine" from me too! - it's good to see.

You know, job #1 here in LL is to eliminate guesswork. Knowledge is power and to that end, you really can't do too much testing! You know just this morning we were counting the used vials of test Strips - it came to ~350 used, since July - and while we were quite amazed at the thought of all those 100s of holes in Sooty's little ears, this really pales into insignificance, compared to some of the folks around here!

Anyhow, good to see that it's going better and like the others said, ask away!! - you might not always like the answer (I didn't, to begin with!) but at the end of the day, I think you will be very glad that you found FDMB and especially, the day that you landed in Lantus Land!
 
Hi Shawn and welcome! :-D Diabetes is called the "Starving disease" because w/out insulin the cats can't get the energy they need from the food they eat, so they keep eating to try to get enough energy. Once they start to get regulated and the food is actually absorbed into their cells they will usually start to eat less. Sorry I'm mangling this I just woke up, but a good place to read up on it is in Dr. Lisa Pierson'ssite.

One symptom of DM in cats is sudden weight loss, but prior to this there is usually a long period of weight gain from the unused carbs being stored as fat when they cannot be metabolized for energy. Once they start getting proper nutrition many cats tend to regulate themselves on their food intake. You will see a lot of comments hers about how much slimmer and how much more energy cats have once they transition to a high protein/ low carb diet. It takes time though and getting them on a proper diet is key.
 
I just want to thank you all for being so hospitable. I guess I kinda messed up the order of responding so, please
accept my apologies if I made it confusing. I feel quite at home here among you kind people with your tremendous knowledge
in the field of feline diabetes in general and lantus insulin in particular. And briefly to those whom I have irritated with my actions
and philosophy of certain majors would like to say, your opinions are highly regarded and they are playing roles on taking steps forward.
I do enjoy the constructive discussions in spite of its conflicting nature and do learn so much from them.
Once again I am grateful to be here and hope to continue learning from you in leading my cat to final victory.
May God bless you for helping and putting up with us!

Shawn and Tubby
 
Hi - I too just wanted to say welcome!

I personally think the constructive discussions and disagreements are what make this forum so great,. We all have our opinions, and our knowledge only grows when we differ. It is a good thing when we can discuss, evaluate, and take action based on the baseline knowledge of all that post here. Makes it so much better for all concerned.

I too agree with all that has been said about food, and your very hungry kitty. Mine was the same way - always ravenous. Now that he is more regulated that hunger has subsided. He still enjoys a good meal, will never turn his nose up at food. :-D

Anyways - welcome aboard - we all look forward to seeing you post here often. We are all here to help one another, and Tubby.

Nice to see a lower amps isn't it? Good luck with your dosecrease! it is higher than most of us would do, but you sound like you will monitor him - so all is well. There is always someone on here on the board should you need help. Good luck!
 
Ann & Tess said:
Hi Shawn and welcome! :-D Diabetes is called the "Starving disease" because w/out insulin the cats can't get the energy they need from the food they eat, so they keep eating to try to get enough energy. Once they start to get regulated and the food is actually absorbed into their cells they will usually start to eat less. Sorry I'm mangling this I just woke up, but a good place to read up on it is in Dr. Lisa Pierson'ssite.

One symptom of DM in cats is sudden weight loss, but prior to this there is usually a long period of weight gain from the unused carbs being stored as fat when they cannot be metabolized for energy. Once they start getting proper nutrition many cats tend to regulate themselves on their food intake. You will see a lot of comments hers about how much slimmer and how much more energy cats have once they transition to a high protein/ low carb diet. It takes time though and getting them on a proper diet is key.
Click to expand...

Hi Ann and thank you, it's good to be here!
I am a firm believer of diet as you well put it, high protein and low carb is the key and I can testify to that fact for the miracle I witnessed
in 2006 when Tubby's pancreas kicked in and stayed that way until a few weeks ago. My suspicion as how he returned to his old illness
would be his poor diet while I was away from him the two months I had to spend over seas. What I want to say is I do agree on restrict
diet along with insulin treatment, these two go hand in hand. Tubby is on raw organic chicken breast and FF chicken based with under 6 carb and high protein.
However my question was on the amount of his intake, should he get as much as he asks for or not? He walks away when he has enough.Should
there be restrictions to his cry for food? My sense tells me he should get food when he begs or cries for because he has to compensate for what is being
redirected instead of running to his cells for energy.
 
Shawn-
Dr Lisa Pierson has a blog where she talks about feeding and feline nutrition. Have you read it? Terrific resource. She tends to keep it pretty simple (is your cat overweight? feed less. Is your cat underweight? feed more). But there is also a formula for calculating # of calories. However, as mentioned previously, Tubby isn't able to use all the calories he's ingesting right now b/c of the diabetes, so I'd let him eat.
 
Shawny2u said:
However my question was on the amount of his intake, should he get as much as he asks for or not? He walks away when he has enough.Should there be restrictions to his cry for food? My sense tells me he should get food when he begs or cries for because he has to compensate for what is being redirected instead of running to his cells for energy.
Click to expand...

many here will tell you to feed an unregulated diabetic kitty as much as they want. however, as a "mom" to a kitty who rightly earned the nickname "fat cat" and "miss piggy", i've never completely subscribed to that theory and here's why:

why food should be somewhat controlled...
Posted by: Hilary & Zug(GA) (IP Logged)
Date: December 1, 2006 06:22PM


Here's a really good explanation of why NOT to overfeed/feed until "satisfied":

In general, brain cells do not need insulin to utilize glucose. A specific area of the brain, called the appetite center (in the hypothalamus), monitors the amount of glucose that circulates in the bloodstream. The lower the blood glucose level in the cells in the appetite center the greater the appetite. Unlike most of the brain cells, the ability of glucose to enter the cells of the appetite center is dependent upon insulin. In diabetes mellitus, with its lack of adequate insulin in the bloodstream, these appetite center cells don't monitor glucose levels properly, thinking the blood glucose is low. as a result, the pet develops polyphagia to correct for this perceived problem. The additional food that is then eaten further increases the blood glucose level.

from: http://lbah.com/feline/diabetes.htm#Pathophysiology

Basically, a cat that's unregulated can't really tell what's going on with its appetite, and the high BGs make the cat even hungrier. It's something of a balancing act -- you want to be sure you're feeding sufficient food that the cat is getting the nutrition it needs, especially to help reduce the risk of ketoacidosis, but you don't want to overfeed (which often happens when the cat is "hungry"). The poor cat doesn't know if it really needs food, it just knows that its brain is saying "need food now!".

Hilary

Me: Active (albeit intermittently) on FDMB since Dec 2002.
Zug (GA): B&W Japanese Bobtail, unknown age.
Diagnosed 12/18/02. Tightly regulated on PZI-VET for most of his fight with diabetes. Died of peritoneal carcinomatosis (a very invasive form of cancer) October 19, 2005, and sorely missed.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/read.php?15,520791,532240,sv=1#msg-532240



dr. lisa pierson, dvm and frequent visitor to the fdmb has put it simply. if kitty's underweight, feed more. if kitty's overweight, feed less.
dr. pierson goes into more detail here: How much should I feed?

hope this helps...
 
Shawn:

On the issue of food, you mentioned that you're feeding both FF and raw chicken. Is the raw chicken a substantial portion of what you're feeding Tubby or is this more for snacks? My reason for asking is that raw chicken as a dietary staple is not nutritionally sufficient for a cat. Supplements need to be added to a raw diet in order for it to be nutritionally complete. Others have provided you with a link to Dr. Lisa's website and she has a recipe for a raw diet or you can use pre-packaged supplements such as those from Feline Future. If you're using raw chicken as a treat, this doesn't apply.

The protocol we use provides guidelines for when and how much to increase a dose. When a cat's nadirs are generally above 300, increases can be in 0.50u increments. When BG is under 300, the protocol stipulates increases in the amount of 0.25u. How much you increase is your decision. The majority of the people here utilize the Queensland/Rand/Tilly protocol that is in the Tight Regulation sticky.
 
Pat+Raja+Shadow said:
I'm back :-D
I read that you feed Tubby lc FF and some chicken breasts....great!
He was diagnosed with hyperthyroid and cardiomyopathy about a year ago and is on a few meds...
methimazole, benazipril and lasix

Can you tell me the date of FD diagnosis? You have only been on Lantus so far, right?

Here is a link to a Tech Support Forum post about the Profile: http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... =6&t=17766

After reading some of your previous posts, I bet you were happy to see some lower numbers today. A word about that. When our kitties have been used to higher numbers, even a yellow number can cause their liver to panic and dump hormones into the system which raise the BGs. We try to bite the bullet and ignore the jumps in BGs ...but you will hear people all complaining about the "Bounce" as it is called. It is just part of the dance, so don't be alarmed when you see the higher numbers. It is a constant movement up and down of the BGs ....low numbers affect the later ones and food and the time since insulin all affect the numbers. They Bounce until one day, they don't bounce any more! :razz:

You are doing a great job of testing! Do you have any specific questions after reading the stickies? We would be happy to answer your concerns. I do want to point out the Hypo information on the "New to the Group" sticky. We use the gravy from high carb foods >18% to bring up any low green numbers. In order to earn a dose reduction, the kitty has to go below 50 and then we give the gravy alone to bring them up a little higher. We don't want to fill them up too much, so we only give the gravy. Please have a supply of canned >18% gravy foods on hand as well as karo syrup. sometimes that is given by the drop also to raise the numbers.

Whenever you get a reading that is unusually low, you can post here and someone will help you, okay?

We hope you will visit other condos too and say hello....see what is going on with other kitties here on LL. We look for the 5 ps each day: Purring Pooping, Peeing, Preening and Playing and report on how many we notice. Our kitties are a lot more than just their BG numbers. Thought I'd mention that to you at the get go!

My heart goes out to you and Tubby with the other physical issues you are dealing with. That is a lot of meds and now the insulin. I hope that we can help you two along in your FD journey! I am so happy you are here! :mrgreen:
Click to expand...

Hi Pat, thank you for your encouraging comments. Tubby was diagnosed on March,1,2006 with BGL=600, it took until the end of November of that same year when he became regulated. His BGs remained between 70-85 until few weeks ago when I returned home from 2 month absence. I learned that 90% of his daily food was FF gravy can foods. I suspect that had something to do with his
current high BGs. I do have a large stock of FF gravy food left over from what he was fed while I was away.
I'm sure I will have questions to raise with stickies when I find time to read them, yes I am guilty as charged and have no excuses.
The only question I have at the moment is what I asked earlier today regarding amount of food he should be given. You may refer to my respond to one of the earlier posting (I believe it was by Ann & Tess » Sat Nov 20, 2010 3:01 pm) today for details.

PS. I did have a profile here (FDMB - The Feline Diabetes Message Board) in 2006, don't know if it still exists. That must have been March of 2006 when Tubby was on PZI insulin.

Best regards,
Shawn & Tubby
 
Cyn and Cosmo said:
Shawn-
Dr Lisa Pierson has a blog where she talks about feeding and feline nutrition. Have you read it? Terrific resource. She tends to keep it pretty simple (is your cat overweight? feed less. Is your cat underweight? feed more). But there is also a formula for calculating # of calories. However, as mentioned previously, Tubby isn't able to use all the calories he's ingesting right now b/c of the diabetes, so I'd let him eat.
Click to expand...


I will share the same view as "let him eat now" until he becomes regulated simply because of hid diabetes. But not sure of it that's why I asked.
Thank you!
 
Sienne and Gabby said:
Shawn:

On the issue of food, you mentioned that you're feeding both FF and raw chicken. Is the raw chicken a substantial portion of what you're feeding Tubby or is this more for snacks? My reason for asking is that raw chicken as a dietary staple is not nutritionally sufficient for a cat. Supplements need to be added to a raw diet in order for it to be nutritionally complete. Others have provided you with a link to Dr. Lisa's website and she has a recipe for a raw diet or you can use pre-packaged supplements such as those from Feline Future. If you're using raw chicken as a treat, this doesn't apply.

The protocol we use provides guidelines for when and how much to increase a dose. When a cat's nadirs are generally above 300, increases can be in 0.50u increments. When BG is under 300, the protocol stipulates increases in the amount of 0.25u. How much you increase is your decision. The majority of the people here utilize the Queensland/Rand/Tilly protocol that is in the Tight Regulation sticky.
Click to expand...

I would say he is fed half and half of each meal. I do agree very much with lack of adequate nutrition in chicken breast, that's why the FF with high protein and low carb is being fed.
I do intend to read Dr. Lisa's website as you have mentioned, thank you. Unfortunately have not read the protocol yet so can't make any inelegant comments but as the general rules the guidelines for how much to increase depending on the BG numbers make sense yet one has to look into many factors on a specific case by case before determining the right dose for any kitty where many parameters could change the general rules of the guidelines. I will read the protocol to understand the concept of their reasonings and do realize the importance of its urgencies.
I do thank you for pointing that out to me.
Shawn
 
Good morning America & Lantus land community!
The good news is I read the Tight Regulation Protocol with an extra care and analyzed their guidelines. It was enlightening and right down to the point, very IMPRESSIVE piece of scientific research along with elegant presentation! Before I get to what all that meant to me I want to direct readers attention to several postings yesterday in reference to increase dosing guidelines which were mostly quotations from TR protocol. My response to one poster in particular was something like their logic made sense but one has to take into consideration the individual cat and his/her characteristics!! To apply what I read in TR protocol and what I have been reading so far, the available data, personal observation through out years of living with a diabetic cat, the characteristics of the individual cat including his weight,
resistance to insulin, and many other parameters involving diabetic cats in general made me realize my dosing was wrong from the very beginning. Thanks to your reminders and the protocol teachings I had to raise his dose by 0.5 unit, again according to the guidelines his starting dose should have been much higher than one unit which I had started with but its to late to correct that now.
I hope I made sense however if there is any counter arguments I would love to hear them.

Have a wonderful Sunday,
Shawn & Tubby
 
WCF and Meowzi said:
Shawny2u said:
PS. I did have a profile here (FDMB - The Feline Diabetes Message Board) in 2006, don't know if it still exists. That must have been March of 2006 when Tubby was on PZI insulin.
Click to expand...

http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/p ... php?8,2795
Click to expand...


Thanks, couldn't believe you found it! Actually the original version was altered after I read TR protocol on "Your Diabetic Cat" thread led by Dr. Elizabeth Hodgkins.
It was there when Tubby started responding in the right direction which led to his full recovery within a month. You brought back memories of many sleepless nights
with anticipation, I thank you for that. Once again I was reminded that hard work and perseverance is the only way to beat the enemy. Maybe thats why I'm up at 3:00 AM testing, looking
for flaws of my possible impatience or who knows, perhaps I am getting closer to my goal.
Reading the Lantus land TR protocol was a real eye opener, the fact the emphasis on careful and conservative dosing does not ignore the fact that each individual cat should be
analyzed by his/her own merit. In Tubby's case, even though the general trend here is to be extra careful with responsible dosing which is commandable, and the current dosing I administer is the
right one plus the fact that I am following the TR protocol to the letter the whole lantus community suddenly becomes lull. But I have strong belief in my precise and correct dosing, in fact
with a conservative start, because I had not read the Lantus TR protocol at the time (according to TR protocol I should have started with 2.75 units to begin with).
I guess the only proper and authoritative source judging the right or wrong is the end result in one hand and Tubby's BG numbers at current dosing!!
You guys are good and knowledgeable people here and I have in many occasions thanked you rightfully so but I'm afraid any disagreements at this point of time should be stated with facts and figures
or else we're all in denials of maybe 0.25 dose raising is not always the correct amount.
All I have to say in defend of Lantus TR protocol and myself as a true believer is to look at Tubby's spreadsheet, scientific and calculated steps to overcome this disease will
always prevail regardless of our dogma.

Respectfully, Shawn
 
Good morning people,
I'm pleased to report that Tubby is responding positively, still have more work cut out for us but at 3 units and proper diet in the third week of his treatment his 400+ Bg is down
to a safer zone (you may check his spreadsheet for details) and he is coming around. Those of you who were watching us struggle and offered help kindly and unconditionally, we
say thank you from the bottom of hearts, your contribution is paying off! And those few who have the notion of being some sort of authority in the field of feline diabetes and lantus
insulin by reading a few stickies, will say you need to pause and contemplate! I came here to help my sick cat and listen to those who could offer help but can see just a few
"experienced" oldies think its either their way or highway... I am sorry to say but its true. This board belongs to everyone who comes in with good intentions and an open mind.
Indeed reading TR protocol was extremely helpful in adjusting Tubby's insulin intake, I would love to hear those who read the protocol with their own interpretation regardless of the protocol teaching and intentions, come and say why Tubby's dosing was or is so wrong now.
I am here to be in productive exchange of our experiences to best help our kitties. I know I won't be a life long participant in this community in fact will be gone when I think the time is right
and that won't be too long but hope to learn from the experience of others and if possible my conduct in regulating Tubby would benefit some kitties to recovery.
I do correspond via private messaging to those who feel the intimidation and retribution by those self made "authorities" LOL!
Thank you for reading and God bless you all!
Shawn & Tubby
 
Greetings, Shawn. I'm glad Tubby is doing well.

I think everyone -- especially our esteemed experienced "oldies" -- knows that ECID (every cat is different). When you were trying to decide whether to increase .25 or .50, I believe you were hearing that .25 has fewer risks. It's a balance between the risks involved with high BG, and the risks of missing the right dose and possibly overdosing. (My own Kitty had the first experience. The right dose was missed, and our vet ended up horribly overdosing Kitty.) But ECID. Each "bean" reads the protocol and decides -- with the assistance of an informed vet, ideally -- how to proceed.

It's wonderful to see Tubby responding. I hope it's just the first of many steps toward health for Tubby. :-D
 
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