11/19: Saoirse Update - Sugar Dance Math

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Re: 11/14: Saoirse Update - Pancreatic Activity???

Food trial is very easy especially for you since Saoirse is on SID

What you do is test, then feed, test again in an hour to assess how much food itself takes her up. Then test again in a couple of hours to see if she can bring herself down again. If she drops without insulin on food alone you have a functioning pancreas and the amount of the drop tells you how well it is working, If she drops a lot then its mostly back on line, if she only drops a little bit then it's helping but not a lot. You should see a natural ebb and flow caused by intake of food and the the pancreas' response to the food that it triggers.

So baseline static, intake of food and digestion starts slight rise, pancreas response and then a drop back down again to static.

No ebb and flow not pancreatic action

slight ebb and flow some action

good ebb and flow action you're back on line and functioning

You will always see some liver dump with fasting that's just how the body is designed. Its the same with us humans its the reason that we feel hungry but if we are busy and ignore the food now please cue, we have a window where the hunger stops until we use up that liver dump and then our stomach screams at us and we get shaky. The living breathing body is a marvelous thing, it has all these bells and whistles that try to balance everything out so nothing changes it loves to be stuck in a rut...lol

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 11/14: Saoirse Update - Pancreatic Activity???

I get the idea. But ... is that on a day when I withhold insulin for the AM?
 
Re: 11/14: Saoirse Update - Pancreatic Activity???

You know on that I'm not sure since I've only done it and seen it done with kitties that are bid dosed. But then it is done by withholding insulin for one shot, food trial, then shot as normal if the trial failed. Or they were started on an OTJ trial if they passed with good action.

You might have to experiment with it both ways. Either am by withholding insulin, or in the evening where she would normally eat her dinner.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 11/14: Saoirse Update - Pancreatic Activity???

Got it (and thank you!). It would have to be daytime for us because of my health issues (so hard to try and focus at the best of times, and much worse as the day wears on).

There's one positive of late. Saoirse is starting to be 'hungry properly'. I'm catching her numbers when she gets hungry and the appetite uptick is starting to match drops in BG, not rises.
 
Re: 11/14: Saoirse Update - Pancreatic Activity???

BaileyUK said:
Hello Aine,sorry to hear that your darling Saoirse is not feeling too good,Mel asked me to pop by,do you have a land line in yet?, if I remember last time we spoke you only had a cell phone.
If you do,PM It to me and I will give you a call.
On the subject of the dreaded pancreatitis how did Saoirse get on with the food parcel I sent to you? and have you started her on Aloe Vera juice? Let me know and we will take it from there. Diane
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HI Diane,

It's lovely to hear from you. How is Bailey doing? I think of you both very often (especially at mealtimes). I tried Saoirse on the Nature's Menu pouch and the Granatapet Symphonie chicken when she was over the worst of the flare but they were a bit too rich for her at that time. I tried her again on the Symphonie Chicken recently but she can't tolerate it. I think she definitely has a problem with salmon oil (I tried adding some as a supplement a while back when her coat was in bits but she didn't want to know about it. I thought it might be OK in the Granatapet itself, but again she started lip licking. It's so sad, because she really likes the Symphonie and it's such a top quality food. (It's now Lúnasa's favourite.) Saoirse enjoyed the taste of the Nature's Menu pouch, and it's also very good quality. If I can't sort out the Smilla situation, that's what I'm going to try next (with a little chicken added to lower the carb %).

I did try a food with an aloe vera supplement included. Lúnasa was curious so I gave her a little bit of it first. It went through her for a shortcut, so I've not pursued that option with Saoirse (especially as she has been making such good progress on the Smilla - see above). Unless her symptoms got worse, I'd be too risk averse to chance giving it to her. Our vet's preferred option was also to keep it in reserve until such time as other things were not helping her.

I can't thank you enough for being there for us on that awful weekend, Diane. I was frantic with worry, and so torn over seeing my beloved girl so ill. Her recovery was a slow and arduous process for both of us but the advice you gave us helped us very much. I still don't have a landline telephone, but we're moving to a new place next week. I'll PM you with the number when it's set up. It would be great to talk with you again and hear how both you and Bailey are getting on.

:YMHUG: cat_pet_icon
 
Re: 11/14: Saoirse Update - Pancreatic Activity???

phlika29 said:
I can't remember whether you ever got hold of any ondansetron? I really do find it helpful for Remi's nausea. ... I will have to hunt around for some new food as the very high protein content of thrive is making his urea levels high and I don't think that's such a good idea in the long term.
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Hi Sarah,

So addled yesterday I forgot to reply to you. Thankfully, this time I'm a bit ahead of the game in that we have ondansetron and famotidine at hand, so I've been able to address symptoms immediately. It took quite a while to get the right meds for Saoirse during the flare (before that she had been almost completely asymptomatic). Having the tried and tested but so-so food options is another help.

I was a bit stuck the other day and I gave Lúnasa a couple of tins of Thrive Chicken in a row, instead of as an occasional treat. She lurves it, but her stools weren't the best afterwards. I think the problem with feeding something like that long term is that it's a scientifically complete food, not a naturally complete one. It may have all the chemical gubbins, but I would be concerned about how much extra work the body would have to do to utilise them. The better quality Smilla kitten food batch might not have been very appealing to human eyes, but it visually resemble what a cat's natural diet should look like.

Thank you for the hug. Here's one for you -> :YMHUG:
 
Re: 11/14: Saoirse Update - Pancreatic Activity???

Nadine, thank you for the hugs. I was sure to pass one on to Saoirse.

How are you and Tibbs doing?

:YMHUG: cat_pet_icon
 
11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

Missed visiting all your kitties in their condos today. :sad:

Things are getting gradually worse for my Bonnie Munchkin. Now up to famotidine and ondansetron twice a day and inappetence threatening (got cypro to hand).

Tried my little one on Nature's Menu Chicken & Turkey pouch from our local pet shop, but alas! no joy. She struggled with the first feed. Gave famotidine and ondansetron in meantime. Saoirse gracefully decIined to even taste another dish of the Nature's Menu. :YMSIGH: I wish, wish, WISH that our local pet shop could carry Smilla Kitten food. They're so kind and helpful and I'd love to put more of my business their way. I bet you a pound to a penny they wouldn't mind checking batch numbers for me. Which brings me to Zooplus ...

For those of you following the saga, after speaking with the customer service manager and explaining how Smilla Kitten is the only food I can find that agrees with Saoirse, she agreed she would check with the warehouse and if a different batch was in stock they would send out a replacement. (Sorry if I'm repeating myself here - no time to check back on earlier posts.) I received an email from them shortly afterwards telling me they were out of stock of the Smilla Kitten. I replied and asked when it would be back in stock, and received a brief but courteous response advising me that they did not have a binding commitment from the supplier as to when they would next receive more of the food into stock. Out of curiosity, I went back to the zooplus site and checked availability of the Smilla. Yep! You guessed. I was able to add a pack to my shopping basket straight away. I've used zooplus long enough to have seen out-of-stock items marked as unavailable, so their system is capable of informing customers about the true stock position. Can someone else put a different spin on this situation that I can't see because, from where I'm sitting, it looks to me as if they just plain LIED. I'm a big girl now and, despite still having the problem of getting food for Saoirse, I could have understood and accepted a response from them explaining that their business just isn't set up to handle requests like my current one: it's what I was partly expecting anyway and I would not have thought any less of them for it. However, I do have a major problem with them trying to treat me like an idiot. It's disrespectful and unprofessional. I'm quite angry about it and I don't trust them any more. I don't like doing business with companies who treat their customers with contempt and disrespect. Unfortunately Zooplus have the monopoly on Smilla retail sales, so I have no choice but to go back to them again because it's what Saoirse needs. If I could get the food anywhere else, I'd buy it at double the price if necessary. In this instance, zooplus are a textbook example of everything that's wrong with capitalism: a giant monopoly that knows everything about the profit potential of a product but diddly squat about its intrinsic worth. It irks me to the core that they have a stranglehold on the supply of the one food that was helping my girl get better and they won't / can't help me to get her what she needs.

I bit the bullet and placed another order for the Smilla kitten food via zooplus's sister site, bitiba.co.uk (smaller minimum orders - thanks to BJ for the lead!). The plan of attack is to order small quantities regularly, wait until I get a batch that's OK and then order a ton of the stuff so that this situation doesn't arise again. It is tearing me up inside to see Saoirse hungry and looking up at me with all that love and trust in her eyes and me not being able to give her food that won't make her poorly. :cry: Thankfully I'm a little bit ahead of the game this time and I've learned from the screw-ups I made that triggered her flare-up last time. I have meds and foods that are tried and tested, and which will hopefully keep her going with minimal discomfort till I can secure a supply of the kitten food.

We're back to the Kattovit this afternoon. In my current frotzed state, I got the time between bowel motions wrong earlier in the thread. In the small hours Saoirse performed for the first time in 48 hours. The stools were like bullets. I double-checked the Kattovit ingredients and discovered that there's no added soluble fibre, so I'm currently working on the principle that perhaps some of her nausea may have been constipation-influenced. I'm going to add a teensy pinchette of psyllium husk to her meals until we get to our new house and then I'll add a smidge of pumpkin instead (she likes it!).

Pancreatitis is a most dreadful affliction. Saoirse, my love, I am so, so sorry ... cat_pet_icon :cry:
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

Mel, if you have a minute could you look at Saoirse's data for the last 2 days or so. I think the higher carb content may be stimulating Saoirse's pancreas to produce more insulin. Is that a good or a bad thing? From my reading, I saw somewhere that insulin secretion is stimulated more by incoming carbs. Is that accurate? Will it help to heal, or to inflame? Or have I got my interpretation completely wrong? :? These - and other - questions will be answered in next week's episode of ... Soap! (Showing my age ... :roll: )

I've been looking back over my offline records and she seems to have flatter, undulating curves on the Kattovit (4.4%) compared to the Smilla (0.7%). The curves for the Smilla look more like the tick marks you described on another thread. As I learn more, I have started wondering whether an ultra-low-carb food might not be the best thing to feed when moving towards OTJ. Numbers aren't great today (6's). Nausea's worse, too (not just from the diet trial).

BTW, I put another page into Saoirse's online spreadsheet with insulin, food and BG test results and timings from yesterday. Is that the sort of thing I need for food trials? I've also added feeding info to today's SITREP on her Detailed Daily Log. Another drop tonight after the 4.4% carbs. Something's definitely going on. A nadir shift? Or something else? :?

Can't stop thinking about you and Onyx ... :cry:

Hope all kitties and beans are doing OK today.

:YMHUG: cat_pet_icon
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

Aine,

I will when I can get a decent connection. We have a major snow storm here at the moment and the computer is taking forever to load spreadsheets, It's suppose to be over later this afternoon so will try to get on tonight and take a peek.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

Hi Aine

Mel I am also interested in Aine question as I am about to find a slightly higher carb food for remi. Does it help stimulate the pancreas?
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

Update - Numbers improved greatly with reintroduction of 4.4% carbs later in cycle. Saoirse seems less nauseated after starting to add pinchettes of psyllium to food - not hiding now. Could be coincidental.
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

You know to my knowledge that's not something anyone has tracked, if it has been I've never seen it.

I do know Maxwell is happier on foods that are on the higher end of low carb. Just spunkier.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

As an experiment and to ensure she keeps some food in her tum to prevent excess stomach acid problems, I'm going to leave food out for Saoirse to free feed tonight. I was digging about for stuff to help with fasting BG spikes and dawn phenomenon on human diabetes sites. On one of them there was mention that some people find it helps their morning numbers if they have a highish carb snack before bedtime. I want to see what the free feeding will do for Saoirse's numbers in the morning. She's a natural grazer so she won't trough the lot at a single sitting.

If it works OK it could make night-time feeding much more straightforward. It could solve the problem of Saoirse not eating the pre-brekkie timed feeds and spiking, and I might be able to get some rest (if not sleep). I'm going to need that after the move. Last time I moved I was laid up for several months. I'm heading that way again at the moment. I need to be able to look after my girl and I have so little energy. cat_pet_icon
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

Hi Aine & Sarah,just a thought mainly for you Aine have you tried Hi Life - Tempt me - Just Chicken in Jelly,it's fairly easy to get hold of Tesco,pets at home,it's quite bland,maybe it's worth buying 1 pouch too try. Good luck with the move Aine.
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

will be thinking of you Aine. i hope the move goes well. please try to take care of yourself. :YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
 
Re: 11/15: Saoirse Update - Food, Lies and Videotape

hi Áine
just thinking of you and your babies and hoping the move is going well for you. so wish you were close enough for us to all help you move boxes and put stuff away. the world is too big some days. sending hugs to you guys.
:YMHUG: :YMHUG: :YMHUG:
 
11/17: Saoirse Update - Setting Up Camp on the Lawn?

Diane and Nadine,

Thank you for your good wishes for the move. It's tough going with the PSTD and musculoskeletal problems, but my friends were a great help yesterday (would have loved to have your company, too, Nadine). One of them's coming back tomorrow to do a bit more. The changes and the chaos are really hard with the OCD. There are things in my flat that I've been unable to move for nearly four years for fear that something awful would happen if I did. :YMSIGH: It's not easy being nuts. :oops:

Mel,

Very glad to see you back after the storm. When you have a mo, I'd appreciate it if you could look at Saoirse's numbers. I think she's finally heading for remission, but I'd be grateful if you could confirm whether my suspicions are on the money. I'm concerned about withdrawing insulin completely at the moment because her pancreatitis is still acting up. The slightly higher carbs seem to suit her better, and the gradual move to free feeding may be helping as well. I don't know whether the Nutramed supplement might be helping (milk thistle, boswellia, marine pine bark extract). It's supposed to take a while to reach full strength in her little body.

I'd very much value your input about whether I'd be OK dropping her dose back to 0.1 IU Lantus. My gut feel is that the taper is a good idea, especially as she will have to go through the move and get used to her new home. I also don't want to risk overloading her little pancreas, given that it's not at its best at the moment. If it's a good move, how long should I hold the dose before starting a formal OTJ trial?
 
Re: 11/17: Saoirse Update - Setting Up Camp on the Lawn?

Hi Aine,

Sorry hon, I've been dozing on and off all day and just getting back on the computer now. This hellish deep freeze we are locked in right now has me both exhausted and wiped out physically. Never can figure out which is worse the Fibro or the drugs to control it....either I'm worthless because I hurt so freaking bad or I'm worthless because I'm so drugged up on pain killers and muscle relaxers. :roll:

Back to Saoirse and her lovely numbers. With the move just around the corner I would probably drop her back to .1 and see if she can hold that reduction. Normally I would say just try for the OTJ trial again and see if she has studied up enough to pass the test this time, but where she has p-titis already and its been acting up and then couple that with the stress of the move and getting use to a new home, I think I would at least be giving her a token dose as just a little extra support to that newly healing pancreas.

One thing several of us have noticed that have moved recently into larger places is that almost all of us had cats whose numbers reduced quickly after the settling in period at the new place. I think partly because there was just plain more room to run and jump and do cat things, and at least in my case less stress because there was more room to move away for the cats that you didn't particularly want to be bosom buddies with. ohmygod_smile So if that holds true for you and Saoirse as well this new place just might be exactly the missing piece to get her over the hump and into a nice strong remission.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 11/17: Saoirse Update - Setting Up Camp on the Lawn?

I feel for you, Mel. Stinks when the treatment's as bad as - if not worse than - the condition. Chronic pain is no joke. :sad: Will it be that cold for the whole of the winter, or will you get some variation in temperatures?

The things I'm happiest about in respect of the new accommodation are the space for Saoirse to run around and play and that she'll be able to sit outdoors in the courtyard with me when warm weather returns next year.

I really appreciate you looking at Saoirse's spreadsheet and for the feedback. Be lost without your help.
 
Re: 11/17: Saoirse Update - Setting Up Camp on the Lawn?

Thanks hon,

Yeah after careful consideration I'm absolutely positive this isn't the old age I signed up for. haha_smiley In fact I'm pretty sure, again after much careful and long thought out consideration I don't think this whole being an adult thing is working out well for me either. grumpy_cat :lol:

As far as the weather goes...who knows, it's Nebraska, the bipolar weather state. There is a joke around here that you truly know you are from the Great Plains states if you have used the lawn mower and the snow blower on the same day. That would be hysterically funny if it wasn't so true. My first year back here on March 22 (yes, the first day of Spring) we got 22 inches of snow. The day before I had been laying out in the sun in my bikini, reading a book, and got lost in the plot and ended up sun burning the backs of my legs to where they blistered and peeled.

We usually can count on at least one week of temps well below freezing in the winter, and at least one week well above 100 in the summer. Just this is extremely early for us to be getting this much arctic cold. November around here is usually cool to chilly in the daytime highs are right round the mid-40's to low 50's (F) not the 9 F with -15 wind chill we have right now. Yes, we get this kind of cold but usually more like around Yule to New Years.

But hey I look at it this way, if some morning I get up and something doesn't hurt, I'll know I'm dead....lol

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
22½ hours since Saoirse's previous insulin dose, and less than 3 hours since a hearty brekkie. Made her mommy feel like this:

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Re: 11/17: Saoirse Update - Setting Up Camp on the Lawn?

MommaOfMuse said:
As far as the weather goes...who knows, it's Nebraska, the bipolar weather state.
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I don't think I could hack a continental climate. Temperate zones may be a bit damp, but we don't tend to get extremes of temperature. My brother used to live in Illinois and I have friends in Wisconsin. I've never visited but I don't envy them their winters. Many years ago I was in Moscow on business around this time of year. I was amazed at the swing in temperatures from day to day. One morning the river would be flowing, and the next it would be rock solid. Brrrrrrr...

And on the subject of winters ...
this is extremely early for us to be getting this much arctic cold.
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It's quite mild over here at the moment. Maybe the jet stream's going to do weird things again like last year. :? I feel for you, Mel: a protracted winter can't be good for the fibro. :YMHUG:
 
I love seasons just only really like 3 of them...lol Spring, Summer and Fall, winter I have no use for,And I want them in a correct order, not all on the same day. You would think being raised here I would have adapted by now. No such luck. Made it was because I was born in the South of France? Mother nature brought me into this world in the right climate for my body just I wasn't (well my parent's weren't) smart enough to keep me there...lol

I was actually born very near Caan, just at age 3 my parent's moved back to the states and out of all the States to pick it was here. But there is where the family line originates from and we have a hefty dose of pioneer bloodlines so we are build of pretty sturdy stock. Even as a child winter was my least favorite except for the fact that it contained Hallows, Thanksgiving and of course Christmas. And I still dealt with it fine until the fibro hit, now I hate it with a passion. Bears have the right idea....wake me in Spring.


Wow look at Saoirse go!!! Come on pretty girl you can do this, we want to throw you a big OTJ party to go right along with a New Home Party.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
MommaOfMuse said:
Wow look at Saoirse go!!!
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Yeah, just look at her. :YMSIGH:

7.8 at AMBG +7.75 :shock:

She hadn't eaten for a few hours. Is that a bounce? Is this where shoot low/stay low comes into play (presumably not on a 4.5 PS :? nailbite_smile )

And I still dealt with [winter] fine until the fibro hit, now I hate it with a passion. Bears have the right idea....wake me in Spring.
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I oft times wonder whether so-called Seasonal Affective Disorder is, in truth, a myth. I'm of the mind that a better name for the the condition would be Failure to Hibernate. Just as other living things, plant and animal, go dormant in the dark months I think we as a species have lost our way somewhat in this nonsensical 24/7 world. :-|

Alors! Tu etais née en France, hein?
 
Saoirse and I are having an impromptu food trial. (Any excuse to get away from the danged packing... :roll: )

AMBG - 4.5
+7.75 - 7.8 - +4 after last she ate.
+9.00 - 5.8 - +1.5 after she last ate - eating again now. Appetite much better than in afternoon.

I could be wrong, but I reckon that drop ain't down to Lantus.
 
Nope that would be a working pancreas. :-D

And I don't blame you I would use every excuse in the book to not pack...lol I love moving once it is done and over with.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
flip_cat Yeeeeeeee-hah!!!!!!! flip_cat

Thanks, Mel! :-D

I really felt there was something very different this time around. Her BG had been low at AMPS on the 4.4% carbs before but there wasn't the response to feeding that she has now.

Are the spikes likely to settle down during an OTJ trial? Or do they need to be addressed?
 
They should settle down on their own. Maxwell had a few ups and downs for a couple of days on his as well but eventually smoothed out and now consistently runs in the 60-90 range. He will still every now and then throw an out of range number although it is usually immediately followed by a hairball or a particularly large bowel movement. :roll: TMI I know.

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
I was encouraged that her recent spikes stayed in the euglycaemic range for a non-diabetic cat. It's really helpful to hear about Maxwell's BG numbers when he went OTJ. Not so sure about the other factoids. :lol:

Thanks, Mel. :-D
 
ROFLMAO Well those are just some of the kinds of things you find yourself noticing after you have the pleasure of being owned by a sugarcat...lol And because the first time he hit 135 on the meter after he was OTj I just about fainted. He wasn't acting right, very dumpy so I tested and had a heart attack at the number, while I was on the phone with his foster mom wondering if I should put him back on the juice he hacked up the hairball on my foot.. :lol: Grabbed the meter, checked again and he was back to a lovely 90. Now I've learned just because he is out of range on one test or even a couple doesn't mean he's lost remission. To watch and see if he is stressing or upset by something first. Couple of times Autumn as thrown a number completely out of sync with the rest of the numbers for that day or week, and if I stop and look back, the reading was taken right after her putting one of the other cats in its place or some other dust up around the house.

With this summer and the new house it was BIRDS, the last people in this house had fed the birds on the back deck so they were still coming looking for a meal. Autumn being an old farm cat knew exactly what they were and that they were tasty. So she would get all excited about the birds and sky rocket, now she is use to them being here and close to the house and now they are only merely kitty T.V. no reason to get all worked up over, since she isn't going to get a chance to have them in for lunch....lol

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Fight or flight response. They need extra energy available to the muscles in case they need to run away. Also, when a living being is poorly it places a greater strain on the body as a whole and that, too, can elicit a stress response.
 
That's why vet clinic bg readings are pretty much worthless. The cat is freaked out just being at the vet's, that elevates BGs. Then kitty comes home relaxes and the BGs lower again. I have a civie here that gets so upset just going in the truck to the vet's he'll spike to 250 but at home he runs in the 50s

Mel and The Fur Gang
 
Re: 11/14: Saoirse Update - Pancreatic Activity???

Critter Mom said:
Thanks, Mel and Diane for coming to help.

Need to do a BG check and feed the munchkin. Oh, yeah. I seem to recall I need to breathe at some stage. :YMSIGH:


Back shortly...
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Breathing? Oh yeah that's what I forgot to do! Our lovely babies have no idea the stress they put us thru with this merry dance!
 
Indeed. And I wouldn't have it any other way. 's our job to not only keep them safe but also to make them feel safe. cat_pet_icon
 
Aine, missing you on the board. How's the house move/unpacking been? How's Saoirse doing?

Silver is surprising me by swimming in the lagoon. He's doing well now that I've finally decided not to listen to the vet when it comes to dosing.

Post an update when you can

Juliet and Silver
 
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