11/18 Charlie amps:447, 4.4u

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Charliemeow

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Amps:447, 4.4u

I was really hoping for better. I don't understand how this dose gave him a blue before, but now it's not doing much of anything.
 
sorry hon, i don't understand it myself. and no one does. perhaps that day he had a some pancreatic input.
i actually think it would be a good idea to invite high dose eyes to watch this. the thing i don't get is that some cats who's pancreas is basically DOA and not working at all, still respond to insulin while it's in the system so i would like to understand the theory behind some kitties needing more to even dip before they rise.
if charlie's pancreas is totally not working than i could see the red ps's but the dip should still happen.
 
The only other thing we have not really discussed is true insulin resistance.

Insulin resistance is defined as:

persistent high blood sugar levels throughout the day
when 3 units of insulin per 4 lbs of patient body weight are used

or

A unit or more of insulin per lb of patient body weight is needed to achieve regulation

http://www.marvistavet.com/html/body_th ... e_pet.html



Does Charlie get any exercise? 15-20 minutes everyday?

I know weird question...but it matters.
 
Well, since Charlie is 14 pounds, we're nowhere near figuring out if he's insulin resistant. He gets exercise everyday. He does some dashing and playing, and lots of jumping up on furniture and doorknob wiggling for about 30 minutes before his afternoon meal.
 
Ok....This might give you an idea where I'm sort of looking...

Step One: Rule out Owner Related Factors

This may seem very basic but it is important not to skip the basics. Confirm that the amount of insulin being drawn into the insulin syringe is correct, that the injection technique is correct and that the patient is actually receiving the injection. Rule out any snacking or changes in the patient’s feeding schedule. Be sure the bottle of insulin is not expired and that it has been properly stored.

Step Two: Determine for sure that the Patient is Insulin Resistant

A glucose curve is needed to distinguish the following three phenomena:

* Somogyi Overswing (we did this a few weeks ago)rebound check
In this case, the insulin dose is too high and drives the blood sugar low for part of the day. When the blood sugar is low, other hormones such as cortisone or adrenalin are released to raise blood sugar. These hormones can have a prolonged effect (many hours) thus creating hyperglycemia (high blood sugar). If the patient’s high blood sugar has been caused by a Somogyi overswing, a lower dose should be used and a new curve performed in a week or two.

* Rapid Insulin Metabolism (not what we're seeing)
In this case, the insulin simply isn’t lasting long enough to create sustained normal blood sugar levels. If the curve shows that the insulin effect is wearing off too soon, twice a day administration of the insulin may solve this problem or a longer acting insulin may be needed. Longer acting insulins tend to have poorer absorption into the body from an injection site. This may also necessitate change to a different insulin type.

* True Insulin Resistance ( yep...checker here)
Here no significant drop in blood sugar level (levels stay greater than 300 mg/dl) is seen in response to the insulin dose used. Usually there is a history of prior increases in insulin dose all met with minimal response.

Step Three: Spay (Not applicable)

Step Four: Rule out Infection

Diabetic animals are at special risk for developing bladder infections since they have so much sugar in their urine. Stress of any kind will contribute to high blood sugar and infection would lead to stress. A urine culture should be done to rule out bladder infection plus the teeth and skin should be inspected for infection in these areas. If infection per se is not found, the patient should be screened for other chronic illnesses that might constitute a stress. A basic blood panel would be a logical starting point.

If infection, or other stress is allowed to go unchecked, ketoacidosis, an especially life-threatening complication of diabetes mellitus can develop.

Step Five: Control Obesity


Insulin response is typically blunted in obese patients. If obesity is an issue, it should be addressed. A formal weight loss program using measured amounts of a prescription diet and regular weigh-in’s is necessary for success. For general information about weight loss for pets visit: www.petfit.com
 
As to Step 4:
I'm not saying infection is 100% not going on here but the numbers really don't appear like it to me. But I could be wrong. The curves she does have just look to even to me for infection numbers but who knows. confused_cat

I also have my list of things I think of that might cause odd numbers:
viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7641&p=77223#p77223
Not sure if any apply.

Has Charlie had anything like a basic blood panel [CBC, Chem, Urinalysis, + T4] taken recently? If so, were all normal there except blood glucose?

Charlie is approx 11 YO right? Not sure how that works time line wise with the acro/IAA cats. It might work into a thyroid time line [I do not know much about thyroid so I'm just tossing that up against the wall]??

Dental would have to wait until funds were available. Has the vet commented on the dental sitch?
 
He had a full blood panel when he was dx. The only thing out of normal was sugar. His teeth were just cleaned in February and are beautiful! Charlie will be 10 in January.
 
3 units of insulin per 4 lbs of patient body weight

So Charlie is 14lbs.

We would be looking at serious resistance at _____units?

14/4=3.5

3.5x3=10.5 units


That is well within range before a vet would start testing for some of this other stuff. We're suspecting issues, but most vets would not begin wondering until 10.5 units.

Just my own experience with Attie and 8 units BID...he wasn't high dose, he just needed that dose for awhile to help himself heal.
 
Did he get the T4 test done with the bloods?

Sorry, I'm sure you've answered the dental question like a million times now already. :lol:
 
Charliemeow said:
He had a full blood panel when he was dx. The only thing out of normal was sugar. His teeth were just cleaned in February and are beautiful! Charlie will be 10 in January.


Ok ...we're ticking off the lists. Details, details...but when the response is slow we start to wonder.
 
I think that's (needs more just to let his pancreas heal some) my last hope before acro/resistant. Oy vey...this kitty stresses me out! For the other points, I'm careful with my insulin storage, and my syringe conversions. He does not have any access to prohibited goodies. I shoot into his sides..not as good as tummy I understand, but he'd never let me do that!
 
yep folks, time to just get on with the dosing increases when claudia is ready and know that she has covered every base. resistance should'nt be ruled in just yet. what makes a high dose kitty a high dose kitty.
let charlie hit 5, maybe 7 Units and run out of his current insulin and then she can try the levimir. that approach has worked for angela and some others.
i think the details and fine tuning are getting too stressful, let's accept everything is ok and just raise dose accordingly ok.
 
I would do 4.6 for 3-5 days, if in 3 days no improvement up the dose. If some sort of response..hold for 5.

then go up to 4.8 for 3-5 days, wash rinse repeat...

then go up to 5.0 for 3-5 days
 
I was thinking .2 increases too. Just in case that blue we saw on the 11th meant we were getting close. But maybe it just meant he had half of a straw in his stomach and wasn't digesting his food properly. :roll:

Pmps:414, 4.4u
 
half a straw??? well I shouldn't judge... there was the time desperate Cody went head first into the trash and ate the styrofoam container to get the leftovers- it came back up in perfect condition- a week later....

BTW the "late" +9 nadir may be an allusion- don't forget allowable meter variation is like 20%, so 298 and 332 are basically the same number in my mind- (only 30 points different or ~10%)
Also sometimes you get a fluke number that doesn't make sense (like your blue between 2 much higher numbers). I've retested those and at times gotten very different retest numbers, so....it happens.

I think .2u increases are kind of conservative, but you are holding the syringe. At least you won't wonder if you missed the dose.
 
I'm with Nancy on the increases and I like the words she put it in.

I like the smaller ["conservative"] but more frequent increases in dose. That's about 5% of the 'top' dose in 1u increments. So at 0-1U that's 0.05u increases. 1-2u .1u increases. At 4-5u that would be .25u increases. As for more frequent I like 3 cycles [unless there is specific reasons to hold longer - like getting good results]. I'm just throwing that one out there - you may develop a synergy of all inputs that works best for you.
 
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