10/7 Ozy AMPS-282,+8-190,PMPS-305

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donaleen and Ozy

Member Since 2013
Yesterday http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=105816&p=1124123#p1124123

Ozy had a great day yesterday. He was up to some of his old tricks, not all of them good, like dominating Harpo. He grabbed him by the neck and drug him around. Ozy is generally pretty easy going with the other cats but every now and then, he used to do that to Harpo. We discourage it because Harpo does NOT like it. Poor Harpo.

Today Ozy is mostly sleeping.

Even **I** think he is bouncing from those greens yesterday. But I don't understand why he should do that now.
 
Re: 10/7 Ozy AMPS-282,+8-190

Ha, when he's well, Ozy put the bossy boots on.
Need I even say that I hope he breaks the bounce soon? We're having the same over here.
 
Re: 10/7 Ozy AMPS-282,+8-190

He was feeling pretty darned awful before I put him back up to 3u BID.
I found the bumped info about NDW and failed reductions valuable. I wish I had not stalled so long in returning him to the last good dose.

Anyway, I am glad that Ozy was back to being Ozymandias, king of kings.
 
Re: 10/7 Ozy AMPS-282,+8-190

Even **I** think he is bouncing from those greens yesterday. But I don't understand why he should do that now.

Umm, because he can? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: We had greens yesterday and are bouncing today too. Seems to be the common past time around here. :roll: As well as the sleeping today.

Good to hear Ozy feels like the king of the castle again when he's in good numbers. And that blue looks promising.
 
Re: 10/7 Ozy AMPS-282,+8-190

Not funny, not funny, not funny.... I think we need a method that stops the bouncing. Why is it that the protocol does not even mention bouncing?
 
Re: 10/7 Ozy AMPS-282,+8-190

well your comment on bouncing sent me back looking at both the Tilly Protocol and the Rand/Roomp Protocol. they really don't mention it. odd.
 
Re: 10/7 Ozy AMPS-282,+8-190

I don't think the term "bouncing" existed when the protocol was developed.

Now this is coming from somebody who never used Lantus or followed any protocol, so take it for what it's worth.

Bounces don't matter. My cat bounced. I didn't care. You are not going to stop them from happening. So you just put up with them until they go away, or until they eventually stop happening. That day might never come. Or it might take years.

I am not trying to single anyone out, but let me use Marje and Gracie as an example. I'll never stop believing that Gracie won't one day go off the juice. But Marje has been doing this for quite some time. And Gracie is on a pretty small dose of insulin, right? I don't know how many greens there are on Gracie's SS, but "hundreds" is not an overstatement.

And Gracie still bounces. Does Marje "care"? Of course she cares, but do the bounces really matter? I'm not trying to put words in her mouth, but I'd guess she would say "no, not really". They happen. The key is that Marje recognizes them when they happen, and accepts them for what they are. A nuisance, and something that she can try multiple ways to make go away. And they always do go away. Until they happen the next time. Then she sighs, she shrugs, and she makes adjustments. And I'm fairly sure that Marje looks forward to each and every green she sees, whether they cause a bounce or not.

There is only one way that I know of that will stop a cat from bouncing. Give a dose of insulin that is so low that the cat won't drop fast or far enough to trigger a bounce. That's completely counter-productive of course. Because nothing gets better, and it can lead to glucose toxicity, and resistance to insulin.

Bounces also have a positive side. They let you know that "things are working" between the pancreas and liver just the way nature intended them to work. That "system" is in place to stop a cat from going hypoglycemic, and to keep BGs more even 24 hours a day. In a non-diabetic cat, it probably happens on rare occasions, in very small amounts? But there's no "volume control". In diabetic cats, it seems that the process goes way overboard, and once a bounce is triggered, there's no controlling how far the BGs are going to climb. It would be awesome if we could put a "dimmer switch" on the liver instead of just an "ON/OFF" switch. But we can't.

I think this refers mostly to what we call "New Dose Wonkiness", but this is off the Tilly page. I've highlighted the words I think are important, and that we need to apply to "bouncing".
Many cats will occasionally react to an increased dose with increased BGs - within the first 2 to 3 days after an increase, usually lasting for less than 24 hours. Nobody really knows what the reason for this phenomenon is (perhaps a "panicky liver"?) - hold the dose and ignore the fluctuations.
 
in general, i agree with you, bob. that specific quote is referring to new dose wonkiness, but yes, i think you just keep on keeping on.

i think the "cure" for bouncing is to keep the cat in "normal" numbers as much as possible so that they get used to it and their body "remembers" that these are normal numbers. as libby says, cats bounce until they don't.
 
Well, Ozy's numbers are high a lot because he is bouncing. Paying attention to the bounces and not raising the dose keeps him in high numbers most of the time.
 
Even **I** think he is bouncing from those greens yesterday. But I don't understand why he should do that now.

Because his body isn't used to 59 or 62.

Well, Ozy's numbers are high a lot because he is bouncing.
I agree that many of his high numbers have been due to bounces. Another part of it is that you possibly haven't reached his "breakthrough dose" yet.

Paying attention to the bounces and not raising the dose keeps him in high numbers most of the time.
So, what are the possible solutions to this dilemma?

I'm thinking...
Recognize the bounces for what they are when they happen.
Recognize the signs that a bounce is clearing or has cleared.
Post-bounce, evaluate a couple non-bouncing cycles, and adjust the dose accordingly.

I know there are others...
 
As I look at the last 14 cycles, he has been too high for all but three of them. Maybe that is a sign that he is REALLY sick. I want quality of life for him, not just maintaining him for eleven cycles so he can feel good for three. That isn't quality to me.
 
I am not seeing what you are seeing, then. In the last seventeen cycles, I see two cycles that I would call "yuck".
9/29 AM cycle. And 10/6 PM, and that isn't conclusively bad.

Since August third, there are two RED numbers on the SS, and 401 and 408 are just barely red.

Most cycles are either good ones, or the "consequence" of good cycles that we refer to as bounces. That doesn't qualify them as "bad cycles"

There are dozens of beans here that would swap spreadsheets with you in a skinny minute.

I understand that you feel that on bouncy days, Ozy looks like he feels like crap. There is a possibility that those crappy days have little to do with his BG numbers. I have good days, and days that I feel like crap. I'm sure you do too. And my crappy days have nothing to do with my blood glucose. They're just crappy days.

I'm not trying to be dense, but I guess I just don't understand what the expectations are. You aren't going to see green and blue nadirs every day and no bouncing. Or Yellow/blue preshots. Not yet anyway. This is a "process", and even if you might not see a logical progression, there is one. That holds true no matter which protocol you follow, whether it's Tight Regulation, SLGS, or the one I used - Carl's "Just make it up as you go along and hope for the best" protocol.
But you are using the best insulin, and the best protocol available, those that give Ozy the best chance at regulation and remission.

Even though there is a standard protocol to follow, every cat is an experiment. No two cats respond to it the same way. Or at the same pace. They all react to food, carb percents, meal size and meal frequency uniquely. All any of us can do is draw upon the collective experience of all the cats and caregivers, and keep trying things until we find those that work for our cat.
 
Carl, I tried to divide your post up into sections and quote each one and respond to each one. It didn't work. The frigging site erased all my comments.....grrrrrrrr. I will post more in today's condo, responding to what you said but not quoting the usual way because I can't get the quotes to work. I am sure it was user error and that I missed a closing quote but it is just too hard.

Thanks for sticking with me. I am not trying to be difficult but I am going to keep questioning this until it stops feeling like a magic 8-ball and makes some sense.
 
Question away, Donaleen. Questions make people stop and think, and maybe even think outside the box. We're all learning here. No person here "knows everything".

Every question you ask, or I ask, is probably a question on other people's that just hasn't been asked for some reason. Or it may have been asked and answered before, and someone can point you towards that answer.

Look at how many "views" a condo gets. There's a lot of people that are looking at each condo, and are absorbing information, even if they don't post anything. I hardly ever posted about Bob, but I learned a ton just from reading a lot.
 
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