OTJ Trial 10/30 - Artemis - OTJ Trial DAY 7 - AMBG 61; PMBG 58

ChickenNugget

ChickenNugget

Member
One week mark reached! 7 more days to go! :cat:

Previous thread: Artemis OTJ Trial Day 6

Artemis's Mood: Extremely upset over the oral medication Metrodinazole :mad:
Artemis's Appetite: Fair
My Mood: Emotionally and mentally spent from school and Artemis's situation :arghh:

Tips or Tricks needed: First day was a disaster for the oral medication since the antibiotic is extremely bitter and Artemis cannot be confined within the prison that is known as the Kitten Burrito - no matter how much I try or how many towels I use. He does not like it when someone reaches near his mouth due to years of treatment for his stomatitis and dental issues. I've tried the Churu-mix method and he didn't let me at all; added to a bit of wet food, he tastes and runs off; and added with chicken broth, he sniffs and runs off too. I'm considering getting some baby food to mix it in in the hopes he'll take it, otherwise I have to take him back to the vet to get a second option on treatment which from what I recall can be the steroid shot and that's the drastic measure considering he's on Day 7 without insulin. I've searched here in the website and Reddit on possible baby foods and I'm leaning towards Beechnut. I have even considered putting the solution inside a gelatin capsule but I don't have the time to wait for Amazon to deliver the empty capsules considering how they are taking their sweet time to ship out items. I would appreciate any tips.

Artemis with his first love - a water fountain. Appropriate photo for an appropriate day where he's been getting mad at me, just like when I have to clean his water fountain and he'd meow angrily for me to put it back and turn it on. He's upgraded to a porcelain water fountain. LOL
Artemis_Fountain.jpg
 
Oh my. I am sorry. Is he having diarrhea? If not, I personally would not give the Metronidazole. Metronidazole is certainly one of the most revolting tasting meds around. Usually if your kitty tastes it he will foam at the mouth and fling drool all over you, the walls , etc. I just ordered some empty gelcaps from Amazon today, this evening; they are supposed to arrive Saturday (but we will see when it really arrives.) As for the size, the Metro that I have here on hand will fit into a size 3 gelcap if I cut them in half using a pill cutter. This is for my 62.5 mg. small tablets. I’m not sure it would fit into a size 4 which is smaller, unless I crushed it and put it in there.
 
It tastes so bad that I doubt he will eat it mixed into anything.

Gerber baby food or Beech Nut is fine to feed (both low carb,) but, again, I doubt he will eat it with the Metronidazole in there. It’s good to keep on hand for when their appetite is puny though. Ham is usually a winner.
 
When I’ve had to give Metronizadole the only way was to sacrifice my forearms, get a little “rough” and just go in and do it. She was mad and probably only ended up swallowing half as she ran around the house flinging and foaming the rest all over but it did the trick. Good luck. I feel your pain. And go Artie DAY 7!!!
 
X-rays are not the best way of diagnosing intestinal inflammation. An ultrasound is the best way to look at that and actual measurements of intestinal layer thicknesses can be taken as well as looking at all the other organs. It should be done by a vet certified and experienced in doing ultrasounds. Anyway, trapped air/gas is not an unusual finding.

Do you have his bloodwork results that you can share?

It’s true that Metronidazole has an anti-inflammatory effect in the gut as well as some antibacterial and antiprotazoal activity. It can help with diarrhea.
 
Lisa and little said:
When I’ve had to give Metronizadole the only way was to sacrifice my forearms, get a little “rough” and just go in and do it. She was mad and probably only ended up swallowing half as she ran around the house flinging and foaming the rest all over but it did the trick. Good luck. I feel your pain. And go Artie DAY 7!!!
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I always gel cap the tablets. They never taste it. Otherwise it happens just as you said. Giving liquid is out of the question! 🤮
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
X-rays are not the best way of diagnosing intestinal inflammation. An ultrasound is the best way to look at that and actual measurements of intestinal layer thicknesses can be taken as well as looking at all the other organs. It should be done by a vet certified and experienced in doing ultrasounds. Anyway, trapped air/gas is not an unusual finding.

Do you have his bloodwork results that you can share?

It’s true that Metronidazole has an anti-inflammatory effect in the gut as well as some antibacterial and antiprotazoal activity. It can help with diarrhea.
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Hello!

Vet did the X-ray after doing an abdominal check. She did mentioned the possibility of doing an ultrasound on Artemis for next visit and/or if I bring him in earlier before his week mark checkup if he doesn't gain weight. He had a bit of diarrhea and soft stools that past few days before the vet visit. She had prescribed the Metronidazole for the inflammation as a first option since she said she didn't want to use steroid shots considering his age and how aggressive it is for a diabetic cat - otherwise if the Metronidazole didn't work, then steroid shots.

Here's his bloodwork from 10/29. Handwritting is mine.

Artemis_Bloodwork10292025.jpg
 
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Suzanne & Darcy said:
It tastes so bad that I doubt he will eat it mixed into anything.

Gerber baby food or Beech Nut is fine to feed (both low carb,) but, again, I doubt he will eat it with the Metronidazole in there. It’s good to keep on hand for when their appetite is puny though. Ham is usually a winner.
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At this point I'm willing to give it a try. The last thing I want happening is Artemis getting injured while I'm giving him the medication. Since kittenhood, its been a pain to give him anything, pill or liquid. Honestly at this point, insulin shots have been the easiest thing I have given him with no fuss or claws out. :(
 
Lisa and little said:
When I’ve had to give Metronizadole the only way was to sacrifice my forearms, get a little “rough” and just go in and do it. She was mad and probably only ended up swallowing half as she ran around the house flinging and foaming the rest all over but it did the trick. Good luck. I feel your pain. And go Artie DAY 7!!!
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:arghh: That's what I had to do for the first day, just had to be a bit rough and added double layer of towels but somehow he was not giving in without a fight. Managed to get the dosage in even if I ended up covered in saliva. If only I had known about the pills and breaking them out inside gel capsules, I think it would have been better BUT once again, Artemis would have fought me on the pills too - I can never win with him! Probiotic is easier because I mix it with a bit of food and he licks it up!
 
Well, that’s a lot to base a diagnosis of inflammation off of mildly elevated monocytes (which can even just be elevated by stress) but then, if your vet is like my vet she can feel a lot just by carefully examining the cat — but I do hope Artemis will keep eating. The weight loss is concerning (2 lbs. is a lot.) I don’t see a lot of other inflammatory markers in that bloodwork — but something is going on.
It does look like Artemis has early kidney disease. I hope you can get him to eat some of the lower phosphorus foods on this list to help reduce the workload on his kidneys (regardless of his current blood phosphorus levels which you want around 4-4.5.) The FF pates are too high in phosphorus for a cat with CKD. Their kidneys have to work harder to remove it. You say he likes his water fountain so that’s good. He could just feel unwell from the elevated BUN (although conventional wisdom is that they don’t feel nauseated until BUN reaches 40, he could be sensitive to it.) How does he approach his food? Does he sniff it and turn away or walk away? Does he lick his lips? Does he ever make unusual sounds like grinding his teeth?
https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/CKD Diabetes Food List.pdf
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Well, that’s a lot to base a diagnosis of inflammation off of mildly elevated monocytes (which can even just be elevated by stress) but then, if your vet is like my vet she can feel a lot just by carefully examining the cat — but I do hope Artemis will keep eating. The weight loss is concerning (2 lbs. is a lot.) I don’t see a lot of other inflammatory markers in that bloodwork — but something is going on.
It does look like Artemis has early kidney disease. I hope you can get him to eat some of the lower phosphorus foods on this list to help reduce the workload on his kidneys (regardless of his current blood phosphorus levels which you want around 4-4.5.) The FF pates are too high in phosphorus for a cat with CKD. Their kidneys have to work harder to remove it. You say he likes his water fountain so that’s good. He could just feel unwell from the elevated BUN (although conventional wisdom is that they don’t feel nauseated until BUN reaches 40, he could be sensitive to it.) How does he approach his food? Does he sniff it and turn away or walk away? Does he lick his lips? Does he ever make unusual sounds like grinding his teeth?
https://www.bizave.com/foodlists/CKD Diabetes Food List.pdf
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She did physical exam, checking the abdominal area and stated she felt gas around the area, thus the XRay to see if there were any blockages or other areas of concern as well. His kidneys looked fine as well as his lungs - the intestinal area did show gas trapped in a certain section. Right now I'm paranoid on his bowel movements, he hasn't had one since 10/29... sigh...

Before he was given the Vitamin B12 and Cerenia shot on 10/29, he would approach the food, sniff, sometimes lick his lips and then walk away - usually in the direction of his water fountain or leave his food/water area. During that time, I had tried adding warm water and/or Tiki Cat Chicken Broth to entice him to eat - he'd only sniff and sometimes just lick up the broth and then ignore the rest of the food. Now he is able to eat his food, pate and broth. I'm getting some Nulo Chicken Broth to add to his pate food for hydration.

As far as the food, I'll check it out and see what I can get today since I have to pick up the Nulo Chicken Broths at Petsmart. I'm assuming the Fancy Feast Pate Senior 7+ wouldn't be a good choice considering its not on the list?
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Are you adding a pinch to 1/8 tsp. Of MiraLax to his food?
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I've read on that for constipation but I'm not sure if its okay in Artemis's current condition of dehydration. Even though he does drink from his water fountain and I recently started giving him Tiki Cat Chicken broth (now Nulo Chicken Broth) with his pate, vet said he was still dehydrated thus needing the Sub Q fluids from last visit.

Part of me wants to take him back on Saturday since vet clinic is closed on Sunday and his vet doesn't work on Mondays... :( I've been extremely overwhelmed - he is on OTJ trial and dealing with weight loss + dehydration + giving him bitter meds and my mind goes to my pet rabbit who took a turn for the worst with GI issues and passed away. My pet rabbit was already elderly by then and I feel like deja vu...
 
I definitely would not let them treat Artemis with steroid shots. If the vet insists on steroids, then you must insist on trying Budesonide for Artemis. Budesonide is used for inflammation such as Inflammatory Bowel Disease and (1) has far less impact on blood glucose, (2) is localized more in the gut and not body-wide, (3) has less overall immunosuppressive effects than other steroids like Depo-Medrol injections (which are long-acting) or oral Prednisolone or oral Dexamethasone.
 
ChickenNugget said:
I've read on that for constipation but I'm not sure if its okay in Artemis's current condition of dehydration. Even though he does drink from his water fountain and I recently started giving him Tiki Cat Chicken broth (now Nulo Chicken Broth) with his pate, vet said he was still dehydrated thus needing the Sub Q fluids from last visit.

Part of me wants to take him back on Saturday since vet clinic is closed on Sunday and his vet doesn't work on Mondays... :( I've been extremely overwhelmed - he is on OTJ trial and dealing with weight loss + dehydration + giving him bitter meds and my mind goes to my pet rabbit who took a turn for the worst with GI issues and passed away. My pet rabbit was already elderly by then and I feel like deja vu...
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I’m so sorry about your rabbit and about all this stuff going on with Artemis. This should be a happy time for Artemis with the OTJ trial going so well — and now this is happening. I completely understand your feelings. In the last month I have lost two of my beloved kitties. The first one was only 7 (almost 8 years old) she was fine in the morning— what we thought was a perfectly healthy cat— and by afternoon she was dead at the vets and they have no clue what happened to her. Then one week ago last Friday night, we lost another precious cat (age 7) who did have an autoimmune condition but had been doing really well and then all of a sudden he took a dramatic turn for the worse and died. It happened so quickly and nothing anyone could do to help. I even took him to the University Veterinary Hospital last Thursday in an effort to save his life, and they were pretty much useless. But what I am saying is that I keep looking around at my other cats (two of whom have health problems) and wondering who’s going to take a turn for the worse next. I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. So I am so sorry.

Don’t despair though. Next steps for Artemis would probably be to get an abdominal ultrasound done and also, if he is really dehydrated for you to give him sub-q fluids at home so he can benefit from them consistently. If his appetite is still not good, then ask for anti-nausea meds like Ondansetron and only after nausea is addressed would you add in an appetite stimulant. Then, of course, depending upon the ultrasound findings you can go from there if treatment is needed.
 
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Some people have good luck with the Purina ProPlan Hydra Care liver flavored hydration supplement. You can ask your vet about it.

I could not get my diabetic CKD boy to eat/drink it much, but some cats like it. It’s pricey though.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I’m so sorry about your rabbit and about all this stuff going on with Artemis. This should be a happy time for Artemis with the OTJ trial going so well — and now this is happening. I completely understand your feelings. In the last month I have lost two of my beloved kitties. The first one was only 7 (almost 8 years old) she was fine in the morning— what we thought was a perfectly healthy cat— and by afternoon she was dead at the vets and they have no clue what happened to her. Then one week ago last Friday night, we lost another precious cat (age 7) who did have an autoimmune condition but had been doing really well and then all of a sudden he took a dramatic turn for the worse and died. It happened so quickly and nothing anyone could do to help. I even took him to the University Veterinary Hospital last Thursday in an effort to save his life, and they were pretty much useless. But what I am saying is that I keep looking around at my other cats (two of whom have health problems) and wondering who’s going to take a turn for the worse next. I am waiting for the other shoe to drop. So I am so sorry.

Don’t despair though. Next steps for Artemis would probably be to get an abdominal ultrasound done and also, if he is really dehydrated for you to give him sub-q fluids at home so he can benefit from them consistently. If his appetite is still not good, then ask for anti-nausea meds like Ondansetron and only after nausea is addressed would you add in an appetite stimulant. Then, of course, depending upon the ultrasound findings you can go from there if treatment is needed.
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@Suzanne & Darcy
Hello and apologies for being radio silent since Friday/Saturday. I decided to take a break due to the Artemis's health issues and my own chronic health problems flaring up due to the stress of the situation + school (midterms and finals coming up). As of this post, Artemis is back to eating and having bowel movements which I'll post more details in a late OTJ Trial thread.

Please accept my condolences on your kitties - you do so much for us here in the forum and same in real life with your cats. I'm really attached to my old man because he's been with me in my deepest lows in life and his presence is extremely comforting to me. When my pet rabbit passed away, Artemis was there to cheer me up. I think he missed my rabbit as well, she had a love-hate relationship towards Artemis because he was a wee kitten when she was already an old lady and couldn't deal with his hyperactivity but didn't mind cuddling up to him during naps.

Aside from Artemis, I look after 8 stray cats + 1 that recently showed up in my neighborhood. I'm always checking to see if they don't got any wounds, infections, issues with their eyes/mouth, worrying over them like a mother hen. I do what I can with what I've got and I believe they appreciate it - even if I'm always terrified that one day they won't return as it has happened to other stray cats I've taken care of. I tend to be extremely hard on myself when Artemis's health declines or any of the other cats I take care of.

Suzanne & Darcy said:
Some people have good luck with the Purina ProPlan Hydra Care liver flavored hydration supplement. You can ask your vet about it.

I could not get my diabetic CKD boy to eat/drink it much, but some cats like it. It’s pricey though.
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I'll definitely ask on that and also look into it - during my brief panic episode on Saturday, I ordered some powder broths to use for Artemis since the vet wanted me to minimize using Tiki Cat Chicken Broth due to the xanthum gum ingredient and not wanting for it to later on flare up/cause inflammation in the gut. These are the two that I got Nature's Logic Beef Bone Broth and Nature's Diet Whole Cream Goat Milk, if Artemis doesn't like them, the neighborhood cats will take it since I'm trying to get them ready for the mild winter season.
 
I’m very happy to hear that he’s eating and using his litter box normally. You successfully nursed him through!

I understand about the stray outdoor cats too. It’s horrible when they disappear. Some come back and some we never know what happened to them. It hurts.
 
And today is the last day of your OTJ trial. Awesome. I suppose I should wait until tomorrow, but I can’t! Congratulations to you both! You did it. Party it up. Eat some (low carb, Artemis!) treats.
 
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