10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+25=58
- Thread starter BJM
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Laurie and Mr Tinkles
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
Good choice to not shoot.
Have a good day at work!
Keep us posted when you can.
Good choice to not shoot.
Have a good day at work!Keep us posted when you can.
Angela & Blackie & 3 Others
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
Very nice #'s.
Good luck!
Very nice #'s.
Good luck! 
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
I would not gauge where Spitzer's numbers are based on whether he's playing, etc. Gabby has run numbers as low as a 28 and acted just fine but I wouldn't want her to be hanging out in that neighborhood for an hour. By the time you see behavioral changes or symptoms associated with hypoglycemia, you are very likely looking at a scoop and run to the ER and a potentially life threatening situation. It's why we encourage frequent testing -- you can then control the numbers. You have been collecting data for 8 days. It's too soon to draw any firm conclusions about how Spitzer will respond to low numbers or HC food. We may have been nagging a bit last night and staying awake to wait for your updates but our goal was to keep Spitzer safe.
I really think you need to reduce Spitzer's dose so you can shoot twice a day.
BJ & Spitzer said:
I would not gauge where Spitzer's numbers are based on whether he's playing, etc. Gabby has run numbers as low as a 28 and acted just fine but I wouldn't want her to be hanging out in that neighborhood for an hour. By the time you see behavioral changes or symptoms associated with hypoglycemia, you are very likely looking at a scoop and run to the ER and a potentially life threatening situation. It's why we encourage frequent testing -- you can then control the numbers. You have been collecting data for 8 days. It's too soon to draw any firm conclusions about how Spitzer will respond to low numbers or HC food. We may have been nagging a bit last night and staying awake to wait for your updates but our goal was to keep Spitzer safe.
I really think you need to reduce Spitzer's dose so you can shoot twice a day.
Pat+Raja+Shadow (GA)
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
Morning BJ! Do you have the syringes with half unit measures? Sptizer might do well with a lowered dose twice each day...
does he know he is having a 12 hour holiday? :razz: Hope he has a wonderful time! :mrgreen:
Morning BJ! Do you have the syringes with half unit measures? Sptizer might do well with a lowered dose twice each day...
does he know he is having a 12 hour holiday? :razz: Hope he has a wonderful time! :mrgreen:
BJM
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
He seems to be very sensitive to the insulin. I'm going to see how he is tonight, earlier if I can't finish the day @ work.
If his BG is still < 150 on low carb food, without spiking, no insulin (hit me on the head once or twice & I catch on to anything!), plus I'll wait a couple hours & retest.
If he is over 150, maybe a skinny .5 units.
And the needles do have half unit markings ... which is in my signature.
Sienne and Gabby said:
He seems to be very sensitive to the insulin. I'm going to see how he is tonight, earlier if I can't finish the day @ work.
If his BG is still < 150 on low carb food, without spiking, no insulin (hit me on the head once or twice & I catch on to anything!), plus I'll wait a couple hours & retest.
If he is over 150, maybe a skinny .5 units.
And the needles do have half unit markings ... which is in my signature.
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CD and BigMac
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
Sounds like a good idea, BJ, taking Spitzer's dose down to 0.5 unit. I saw on your SS that you want to be able to shoot twice a day and you are searching to find that dose.
It's great that Spitzer may need so little insulin. Good for you!
I hope the lower dose will keep him in the greens without being so low that we all get heart attacks!
Sounds like a good idea, BJ, taking Spitzer's dose down to 0.5 unit. I saw on your SS that you want to be able to shoot twice a day and you are searching to find that dose.
It's great that Spitzer may need so little insulin. Good for you!
I hope the lower dose will keep him in the greens without being so low that we all get heart attacks!
PeterDevonMocha
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
I hope you are able to find the dose that works best for you guys .. have a great day!
I hope you are able to find the dose that works best for you guys .. have a great day!
Pat+Raja+Shadow (GA)
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
ohmygod_smile thanks...I didn't see that...such efficiency BJ!
Here is the link to Libby's post that deals with lower preshots: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26571
Don't know if you saw that in my post yesterday.
How is Sptizer doing today? All Ps in place?
ohmygod_smile thanks...I didn't see that...such efficiency BJ!
Here is the link to Libby's post that deals with lower preshots: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26571
Don't know if you saw that in my post yesterday.
How is Sptizer doing today? All Ps in place?
BJM
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
purring
preening
playing
didn't see him pee or poo, but his behavior seems normal -
Morning routine
- has a bite of breakfast
- lays down near me and grooms a bit
- climbs on me and schnuzzles
- goes 'n' bugs the older cats
- comes back and lies down
- repeat any or all steps in any order
purring
preening
playing
didn't see him pee or poo, but his behavior seems normal -
Morning routine
- has a bite of breakfast
- lays down near me and grooms a bit
- climbs on me and schnuzzles
- goes 'n' bugs the older cats
- comes back and lies down
- repeat any or all steps in any order
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Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
If you get a pre-shot at 150, I'd suggest posting. We can walk you through the process of what to do. It may be feasible to shoot if you are home and can monitor. It's a different scenario if you have to get out the door for the day. Waiting a couple of hours is generally too long. If you retest in 20 - 30 minutes and see a reasonable rise in numbers, you'll know that BJ's BG is on the way up or he may be surfing and in either case, depending on where the numbers are, it may be fine to shoot. Part of the issue here is that it takes about 2 hours for Lantus onset to begin. So, you are not really shooting your pre-shot number. You're actually shooting whatever number is there once onset begins. You have to anticipate. With a "perfect" curve, your pre-shot and +2 are in the same neighborhood, but not always.
Oh, and just to complicate things... You don't have an AMPS this morning. If you didn't shoot, you don't have a pre-shot number. The 76 is your +12. You just keep counting the hours from your last shot. So, if you get home at what would be your AM +6, you'd list that as your PM +18. It lets those of use who are scanning subject lines know that you didn't give a shot.
BJ & Spitzer said:
If you get a pre-shot at 150, I'd suggest posting. We can walk you through the process of what to do. It may be feasible to shoot if you are home and can monitor. It's a different scenario if you have to get out the door for the day. Waiting a couple of hours is generally too long. If you retest in 20 - 30 minutes and see a reasonable rise in numbers, you'll know that BJ's BG is on the way up or he may be surfing and in either case, depending on where the numbers are, it may be fine to shoot. Part of the issue here is that it takes about 2 hours for Lantus onset to begin. So, you are not really shooting your pre-shot number. You're actually shooting whatever number is there once onset begins. You have to anticipate. With a "perfect" curve, your pre-shot and +2 are in the same neighborhood, but not always.
Oh, and just to complicate things... You don't have an AMPS this morning. If you didn't shoot, you don't have a pre-shot number. The 76 is your +12. You just keep counting the hours from your last shot. So, if you get home at what would be your AM +6, you'd list that as your PM +18. It lets those of use who are scanning subject lines know that you didn't give a shot.
Laurie and Mr Tinkles
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer AMPS=76
It does seem reasonable to me to lower the dose down to a skinny 0.5u, and see if that is low enough to be able to shoot twice a day. That sounds like a good plan, since the 1.0u is obviously too high and I'm not convinced that 0.75u will be low enough either. Some cats only need a very tiny dose to get a big response.
In this case, skipping the shot was a good idea not only because Spitzer's BG was too low to shoot, but because the 1.0u dose is too high, and you want to drain some insulin from the shed before resuming at a lower dose. But you really don't want to be forced to skip shots routinely if you can avoid it, it can cause a loss in momentum and wonky numbers. I know you understand you want to shoot twice a day, I just wanted to explain why skipping in this case was good for two reasons, IMO. You are going about this backwards, working your way down instead of up, and it makes it more difficult to gauge what dose Spitzer needs....the shed complicates things. You will need to be patient with the new dose, unless he throws some low numbers at you again.
As Sienne said, if you get a PS below 150 tonight, post and let us know. Sometimes just stalling 15-30 minutes makes a big difference, so re-testing every 15 minutes without feeding is SOP in that case. I know Spitzer free feeds, but if you can pick up his food from two hours prior to PS (if you're home) and not feed until you are ready to shoot, that is preferable so you get a "clean" PS reading without food influencing the numbers.
On the other hand, if you see a very high number tonight, please don't shoot a higher dose because the PS number is high! It is likely that Spitzer will bounce from the low numbers, and the bounce combined with no insulin may result in a very high number. Please stick to the plan and shoot Sk0.5u...the bounce will clear on it's own, you don't want to respond to it. If you do, you will likely end up in a yo-yo pattern....very high alternating with very low BG....not what you want and will only delay progress.
Above is from the sticky on the Storage Shed http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 50&start=0
It's great that you are thinking for yourself....just please bounce stuff off us, there is a wealth of experience here that can help you shorten your learning curve. We want to help you help Spitzer.
It does seem reasonable to me to lower the dose down to a skinny 0.5u, and see if that is low enough to be able to shoot twice a day. That sounds like a good plan, since the 1.0u is obviously too high and I'm not convinced that 0.75u will be low enough either. Some cats only need a very tiny dose to get a big response.
In this case, skipping the shot was a good idea not only because Spitzer's BG was too low to shoot, but because the 1.0u dose is too high, and you want to drain some insulin from the shed before resuming at a lower dose. But you really don't want to be forced to skip shots routinely if you can avoid it, it can cause a loss in momentum and wonky numbers. I know you understand you want to shoot twice a day, I just wanted to explain why skipping in this case was good for two reasons, IMO. You are going about this backwards, working your way down instead of up, and it makes it more difficult to gauge what dose Spitzer needs....the shed complicates things. You will need to be patient with the new dose, unless he throws some low numbers at you again.
As Sienne said, if you get a PS below 150 tonight, post and let us know. Sometimes just stalling 15-30 minutes makes a big difference, so re-testing every 15 minutes without feeding is SOP in that case. I know Spitzer free feeds, but if you can pick up his food from two hours prior to PS (if you're home) and not feed until you are ready to shoot, that is preferable so you get a "clean" PS reading without food influencing the numbers.
On the other hand, if you see a very high number tonight, please don't shoot a higher dose because the PS number is high! It is likely that Spitzer will bounce from the low numbers, and the bounce combined with no insulin may result in a very high number. Please stick to the plan and shoot Sk0.5u...the bounce will clear on it's own, you don't want to respond to it. If you do, you will likely end up in a yo-yo pattern....very high alternating with very low BG....not what you want and will only delay progress.
Above is from the sticky on the Storage Shed http://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopi ... 50&start=0
It's great that you are thinking for yourself....just please bounce stuff off us, there is a wealth of experience here that can help you shorten your learning curve. We want to help you help Spitzer.
BJM
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+12=76
I caught the whole shed thing, which is why I didn't elevate on the 18th when he was up in the 200-300s; I knew he was working off the previous nights carb addition and it would just take time for the Lantus to take care of it. And it did.
Insulin for 3.5 weeks so far.
Home testing 1 week ... and radically dropping the dose from what the vet prescribed. Its amazing Spitzer has actually survived it, to be perfectly honest.
I caught the whole shed thing, which is why I didn't elevate on the 18th when he was up in the 200-300s; I knew he was working off the previous nights carb addition and it would just take time for the Lantus to take care of it. And it did.
Insulin for 3.5 weeks so far.
Home testing 1 week ... and radically dropping the dose from what the vet prescribed. Its amazing Spitzer has actually survived it, to be perfectly honest.
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Laurie and Mr Tinkles
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+12=76
Great, glad you were aware of it! It never hurts to remind, and you never know who else may be reading these threads so it may help someone else too. ;-)
I won't lie, I've been very concerned about Spitzer through this process...you've been very lucky. I hope the dose reduction works well for him!
Great, glad you were aware of it! It never hurts to remind, and you never know who else may be reading these threads so it may help someone else too. ;-)
I won't lie, I've been very concerned about Spitzer through this process...you've been very lucky. I hope the dose reduction works well for him!
Ann & Tess GA
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+12=76
Question, why do you want to go all the way down to a skinny.5u? According to your SS, 1u is the lowest you have tried so far. Half unit changes are usually used for high doses, .75u would be the next step, then .5 or even a couple of shaves in between. If Spitzer is very carb sensitive even a drop change can make a big difference, especially when you are also dealing with an emptied shed. Besides, the skinny and fat doses are a lot harder to draw consistently.
Great WCR.BJM said:
Question, why do you want to go all the way down to a skinny.5u? According to your SS, 1u is the lowest you have tried so far. Half unit changes are usually used for high doses, .75u would be the next step, then .5 or even a couple of shaves in between. If Spitzer is very carb sensitive even a drop change can make a big difference, especially when you are also dealing with an emptied shed. Besides, the skinny and fat doses are a lot harder to draw consistently.
CD and BigMac
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+12=76
Hi Ann. I believe the new plan for the 0.5u dose is because... as Laurie/Mr. Tinkles explained:
If this was a 'normal' going down the dosing ladder case, then yes, dropping by .25 increments is usually recommended.
But in this case Spitzer's beginning dose was way too high and BJ and Spitzer are trying to work it all out.
So think of it more as they are trying to find the best dose to start and go up if needed. A reset, a do-over.
Kind of like when I started with BigMac on an (over)dose of 5units. I didn't drop down by .25u.... I started over at 0.5u - worked up and then back down the dosing ladder.
Then when the best dose is found, they can take regular dose reductions all the way to OTJ... anti-jinx! :lol:
Ann & Tess said:
Hi Ann. I believe the new plan for the 0.5u dose is because... as Laurie/Mr. Tinkles explained:
Laurie and Mr Tinkles said:
If this was a 'normal' going down the dosing ladder case, then yes, dropping by .25 increments is usually recommended.
But in this case Spitzer's beginning dose was way too high and BJ and Spitzer are trying to work it all out.
So think of it more as they are trying to find the best dose to start and go up if needed. A reset, a do-over.
Kind of like when I started with BigMac on an (over)dose of 5units. I didn't drop down by .25u.... I started over at 0.5u - worked up and then back down the dosing ladder.
Then when the best dose is found, they can take regular dose reductions all the way to OTJ... anti-jinx! :lol:
BJM
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+22=49
+22 = 49 gave him some high calorie canned food, plus 10 pellets of dry after the BG test.
The insulin holiday is likely to continue, at this rate.
He's tired of eating the Friskies Poultry Platter; I need to go pick up some other foods that'll interest him.
And I'll keep checking him, now that I'm home
+22 = 49 gave him some high calorie canned food, plus 10 pellets of dry after the BG test.
The insulin holiday is likely to continue, at this rate.
He's tired of eating the Friskies Poultry Platter; I need to go pick up some other foods that'll interest him.
And I'll keep checking him, now that I'm home
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mybuddybinks
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+22=49
bj...this is great! you have a good sense of humor, and spitzer has a holiday...
i'm no help with advice...but i'm dying to know about the ice cream in the tea thing!
(yeah...i know...i got weird priorities)
celi & binks
bj...this is great! you have a good sense of humor, and spitzer has a holiday...
i'm no help with advice...but i'm dying to know about the ice cream in the tea thing!
(yeah...i know...i got weird priorities)
celi & binks
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+22=49
Sorry for the confusion -- I really did know that Spitzer is your cat!!
Here's what I would have done rather than feed carbs so close to PMPS. I would have re-tested in 15 - 20 min. If numbers were going lower, then I would have given a small amount of gravy and re-tested in another 15 - 20 min. I really don't ever use dry food. It doesn't raise BG levels as quickly as you need it too if your purpose is to get numbers up in a hurry and the stuff sticks around in the system forever. HC gravy is in and out.
Sorry for the confusion -- I really did know that Spitzer is your cat!!
Here's what I would have done rather than feed carbs so close to PMPS. I would have re-tested in 15 - 20 min. If numbers were going lower, then I would have given a small amount of gravy and re-tested in another 15 - 20 min. I really don't ever use dry food. It doesn't raise BG levels as quickly as you need it too if your purpose is to get numbers up in a hurry and the stuff sticks around in the system forever. HC gravy is in and out.
BJM
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+22=49
It is like using a very heavy, flavored cream
I had Constant Comment (orange spice) with Breyer's Heath Bar ice cream. Takes about 1 cup of the ice cream to 1 cup of hot beverage so that it is somewhat sweet. The result is kind of like a hot milkshake.
mybuddybinks said:
It is like using a very heavy, flavored cream
I had Constant Comment (orange spice) with Breyer's Heath Bar ice cream. Takes about 1 cup of the ice cream to 1 cup of hot beverage so that it is somewhat sweet. The result is kind of like a hot milkshake.
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Libby and Lucy
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+22=49
wow, amazing numbers!
After seeing these 49s at +22 and +23, I think Spitzer might need another cycle to empty his shed, then a restart at a lower dose.
eta: also, this seems like a stupid thing, but lots of us who study spreadsheets do use the colors to help us spot patterns. You can color the 40's to a different green if you want, but it would help me if they are still some shade of green. Seems silly, I know, it's just the way I look at cats' patterns.
wow, amazing numbers!
After seeing these 49s at +22 and +23, I think Spitzer might need another cycle to empty his shed, then a restart at a lower dose.
eta: also, this seems like a stupid thing, but lots of us who study spreadsheets do use the colors to help us spot patterns. You can color the 40's to a different green if you want, but it would help me if they are still some shade of green. Seems silly, I know, it's just the way I look at cats' patterns.
CD and BigMac
Member Since 2009
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+23=49
No kidding, the holiday continues! :shock: :lol: :shock:BJM said:
Laurie and Mr Tinkles
Member Since 2010
Re: 10/20/2010 Spitzer PM+22=49
BJ, I know you are concerned about the 49s and want to see those numbers rise. When you go to get some different food for Spitzer, please pick up some HC food from J&B's list so you have gravy to use for low numbers. I use 9 Lives tender slices with real beef in gravy...it has 24% carbs and plenty of gravy. In the meantime, you can use Karo mixed with a small amount of his regular food to boost his numbers up, that will work fine. The dry food really doesn't suit the purpose very well....too slow taking effect, and then takes too long to clear his system. In addition to that, it puts more stress on his pancreas if it is starting to produce insulin again, and you want to avoid that! So please, no dry food, use karo instead.
I agree with Libby, that sounds like a good plan. The holiday continues for now. :mrgreen:Libby and Lucy said:
BJ, I know you are concerned about the 49s and want to see those numbers rise. When you go to get some different food for Spitzer, please pick up some HC food from J&B's list so you have gravy to use for low numbers. I use 9 Lives tender slices with real beef in gravy...it has 24% carbs and plenty of gravy. In the meantime, you can use Karo mixed with a small amount of his regular food to boost his numbers up, that will work fine. The dry food really doesn't suit the purpose very well....too slow taking effect, and then takes too long to clear his system. In addition to that, it puts more stress on his pancreas if it is starting to produce insulin again, and you want to avoid that! So please, no dry food, use karo instead.
Personally, I agree with Libby not only about clearing the shed but about your SS. I find it really difficult to read and I look at a lot of SSs. It will be very difficult to see patterns.
Laurie and Mr Tinkles
Member Since 2010
Some people make the <50 numbers bold, to mark earned dose reductions, you could do that while keeping the green coloring....or leave the text red, but keep the green background. The background colors are important when you are looking for patterns.....
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