10/2 Chico AMPS 475; PMPS 353; +4 108; +4.5 122 Clearing bounce? cycle 3 lantus

Hey,
Yes looks like a bounce.
Those two numbers are about the same (especially when you consider tht there can be up to a 20% meter variance)

Feed him as you normally would, for the rest of the morning, though I would probably avoid feeding late in the cycle since this can affect duration, and no food for two hours before pmps.

His bounces on Caninsulin the last few days were not lasting long one or two cycles.

As he has only just started on Lantus I might suggest getting a +6 (if he is still in the mid to high pinks) then I would leave him be until nearer shot time, but I would get a +11 perhaps just incase he starts to clear the bounce just before you shoot and throws a lower PMPS, so it gives you time to ask for help and make a plan.

With each progressive shot the depot will be building and you will start to see the full effect of the dose. We do see some cats initially have a strong reaction to the dose and then still need to go up, so don't be disillusioned if that happens.:)
 
Gill & George said:
Hey,
Yes looks like a bounce.
Those two numbers are about the same (especially when you consider tht there can be up to a 20% meter variance)

Feed him as you normally would, for the rest of the morning, though I would probably avoid feeding late in the cycle since this can affect duration, and no food for two hours before pmps.

His bounces on Caninsulin the last few days were not lasting long one or two cycles.

As he has only just started on Lantus I might suggest getting a +6 (if he is still in the mid to high pinks) then I would leave him be until nearer shot time, but I would get a +11 perhaps just incase he starts to clear the bounce just before you shoot and throws a lower PMPS, so it gives you time to ask for help and make a plan.

With each progressive shot the depot will be building and you will start to see the full effect of the dose. We do see some cats initially have a strong reaction to the dose and then still need to go up, so don't be disillusioned if that happens.:)
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Thank you for the advice :)

and we will try not to get disappointed if we will have to increase dose :D
 
Marina & Chico said:
@Gill & George we finally saw the bouncing patterns on the spreadsheet, Jeeez it took me so long to make sense of it, i was starring at this spreadsheet for the past few days and couldn't understand how come you see him bouncing for 1 or 2 cycles :facepalm::facepalm:
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It's hard to see through all the pretty rainbow colours.:) Plus he was also getting no duration with caninsulin so he was high at the end of every cycle. When he came down straight away, that was the duration. If he stayed high and flat, that was a bounce, some of the dose changes in there also muddy the water a bit.

I think just with yesterdays single dose he looked to be able to stay in that lower level for a bit longer for two hours there was only a 10pt variation, we would say that was flat, he didn't just hit nadir and pop straight up. He may even have spent a few more hours in blue after you went to sleep. When he has a daytime cycle that's active you'll be able to gather the data to see that.
Hopefully as he settles into the dose and the depot settles he will level out, and that will be reflected in his numbers.
 
Just saw his +6, he's flat and high at +6, looks like a bounce.

Give yourselves a break, grab a +11 in case Chico decides to start clearing the bounce at the end of the cycle. It will give you some thinking time.
 
Gill & George said:
Just saw his +6, he's flat and high at +6, looks like a bounce.

Give yourselves a break, grab a +11 in case Chico decides to start clearing the bounce at the end of the cycle. It will give you some thinking time.
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We are considering to change a bit his schedule not to be awake until 4AM every day. We found an article about the increments it should be done but i cannot find it anymore. Do you know where can i find it? When do you think is reasonable to start the change? should we give him at least 1 week on this schedule and then start or better wait longer?

Thank you in advance for your help
 
15 minutes per cycle. or 30 min a day.
But way may be able to do it a bit quicker if he bounces.

I wondered when you would decide it would be easier to shoot earlier LOL i started shooting on a 10am/`10pm basis and I moved to a 7am/7pm

  1. You could shoot at 8.30 pm tonight if you wanted, then 8pm tomorrow, 7.30pm day after and so on.
  2. 8.45 tonight 8.30am tomorrow morning 8.15pm tomorrow night and so on.

If it seems that he may clear the bounce just as you are reaching the end of this cycle, I might go for option two, shooting early can act as a slight dose increase, and we probably don't want to do that and have him start to clear a bounce at the same time as you are shooting early, it might contribute to the speed at which he drops.
Marina & Chico said:
Thank you in advance for your help
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You are welcome
 
Gill & George said:
15 minutes per cycle. or 30 min a day.
But way may be able to do it a bit quicker if he bounces.

I wondered when you would decide it would be easier to shoot earlier LOL i started shooting on a 10am/`10pm basis and I moved to a 7am/7pm

  1. You could shoot at 8.30 pm tonight if you wanted, then 8pm tomorrow, 7.30pm day after and so on.
  2. 8.45 tonight 8.30am tomorrow morning 8.15pm tomorrow night and so on.

If it seems that he may clear the bounce just as you are reaching the end of this cycle, I might go for option two, shooting early can act as a slight dose increase, and we probably don't want to do that and have him start to clear a bounce at the same time as you are shooting early, it might contribute to the speed at which he drops.

You are welcome
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Thank you for your answer, we will measure at +11 and based on that value decide. It did hit us yesterday that since nadir moved later in the night it will mean that every night we would have to keep up )))
 
Gill & George said:
Just saw his +6, he's flat and high at +6, looks like a bounce.

Give yourselves a break, grab a +11 in case Chico decides to start clearing the bounce at the end of the cycle. It will give you some thinking time.
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Nooow i understand why it is better to keep him higher around nadir in the beginning, for his body to gradually get used to lower values and bounce less :facepalm::facepalm: nooow the spread out feeding schedule makes so much more sense...
 
Marina & Chico said:
Nooow i understand why it is better to keep him higher around nadir in the beginning, for his body to gradually get used to lower values and bounce less :facepalm::facepalm: nooow the spread out feeding schedule makes so much more sense...
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have you seen the link to this post, Jill and others talk about the importance of food. You may enjoy this read.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/8-10-tashie-pmps-high-questions.101989/#post-1087990

It is early days for Chico so you may want to just see what happens in the begining and if he shows that he is prone to bouncing this is the sort of thing you can try to level him out. It doesn't often work instantly and some cats are easier than others, and you may well need to try something for a few days see what happens and then adjust as needed.
 
Gill & George said:
have you seen the link to this post, Jill and others talk about the importance of food. You may enjoy this read.
https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/8-10-tashie-pmps-high-questions.101989/#post-1087990

It is early days for Chico so you may want to just see what happens in the begining and if he shows that he is prone to bouncing this is the sort of thing you can try to level him out. It doesn't often work instantly and some cats are easier than others, and you may well need to try something for a few days see what happens and then adjust as needed.
Click to expand...
Thank you for the read. Is there any way to save the posts/articles i am interested in? i read so many and i would love to have saved them all to be able to go back to them when i need it
 
Please help us decide if we can shoot the normal
Gill & George said:
Hey Marina, I just saw that Chico had an upset tummy today.
I'm wondering if it may be something in the MC food?
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No, unfortunately i don't think it is. He never got perfectly fine, he had better days though after a few days on probiotics. Yesterday we switched him on Kattovit but today is not very good. Maybe it is the high BGs, maybe it is the switch of the food but tomorrow we go to the vet to find out if it can be anything else.
 
Marina & Chico said:
No, unfortunately i don't think it is. He never got perfectly fine, he had better days though after a few days on probiotics.
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So he didn't get 100% better. :(
You also say he's not active today. Does he seem to be in discomfort/pain?
Is his appetite good.

I found once I got George into blues and greens regularly he started feeling a lot better, he would go upstairs, follow me around, playing and singing, he started purring a lot more as well.
But when he was in high numbers he would be more slow, sleepy less active overall and would sit away from us more.
 
Gill & George said:
So he didn't get 100% better. :(
You also say he's not active today. Does he seem to be in discomfort/pain?
Is his appetite good.

I found once I got George into blues and greens regularly he started feeling a lot better, he would go upstairs, follow me around, playing and singing, he started purring a lot more as well.
But when he was in high numbers he would be more slow, sleepy less active overall and would sit away from us more.
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His appetite is good and he doesn't seem to be in pain, he is just less active, all day he slept. I believe it is the high BGs all day.

Today we believe we had our first fur shot so this won't help too much :( Hopefully tomorrow will be a better day
 
Gill & George said:
are you still giving him some?
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yeah, i don't intend to stop for a while, i am considering to look at the one you recommended but up to this moment didn't get my hands on it and we are just using the one that the vet gave us. I saw some improvement so don't want to dismiss it just yet.
 
Marina & Chico said:
yes, what do you think about it?
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Haha, i had this tab opened from @JaxBenji list and already read it:
https://www.ibdkitties.net/supplements/probiotics/

Honestly considering our experience with the Proplan food i wasn't very excited about this option but we are overwhelmed with stocking up on measuring stripes, needles, syringes and so on that i wanted to postpone this one for later. Looks like we won't be postponing it anymore...

No need to comment, i will look into what is recommended there and choose something better
 
I'm trying to get the info for you.
But you beat me to it.:joyful::joyful::joyful:
Not a fan.
I don't think it has much probiotic in it and only one strain, it's good to sprinkle of food if cat isn't eating, it's used as a flavour enhancer in dry food. I discounted it.
 
The brand I shared with you comes from UK and with brexit the shipment took nearly two weeks to arrive via amazon, usually it would have been here in under a week. So I would order something that is coming from central europe, so you don't have a long wait.
 
Gill & George said:
The brand I shared with you comes from UK and with brexit the shipment took nearly two weeks to arrive via amazon, usually it would have been here in under a week. So I would order something that is coming from central europe, so you don't have a long wait.
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yeah, doesn't look like i will be able to find it anywhere else than on amazon. Can you please share which one did you chose?
 
@ +2 Chico is already at 270, do you think we should give him some food to slow his descend down? wouldn't want to let him bounce again
 
Ok Marina,
can I get you to update the thread title.
You will run out of space if you try and put all the numbers in.
I would suggest just putting the important ones
so
AMPS 475 PMPS 353 +270 Clearing bounce? cycle 3 lantu

Just so folk can see whats happening at a glance.

I would maybe get a +3 see if he continues to drop or if he levels of.
 
Hi Marina :bighug: I see Chico's keeping you busy but you all sure are doing a great job handling it. If you log on, will you update you title similar to how Gill suggests...

10/2 Chico PMPS 353,+2 270,+3 149,+3.5 122

I have to put my kids to be but will be back in ~1.5 hours from now. Others will be by to keep an eye out too :bighug:
 
Gill & George said:
Good job with the snacks marina.
What food are you using for MC?
What % sit?
I would get that +4.5
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Its gourmet and its cca 13%, we really struggle to find anything with more carbs

Since you r here can u pls tell if i can give him human probiotics? Should i give him the content from 1 pill? Or more? 1 pill has 2bil. His bowel is very bad, i will have to ask the vet to give him something to improve...
 
Would you please get rid of some of the earlier tests in the subject and post the most recent ones when you can?
 
Yes you can give human probiotics.
What is it?
I think you could give 1/4 capsule. I can't remember how often.
I'll have to check
Is it gourmet gold meat in sauce?
It has corn starch in it, and I think their other products too. I suspected it gave George tummy problems. I noticed he would get a bad tummy when I used it, but it never lasted long. I made a decision not to use it again and try just using honey in his regular good, but he got regulated and do I never did the experiment
 
Gill & George said:
Yes you can give human probiotics.
What is it?
I think you could give 1/4 capsule. I can't remember how often.
I'll have to check
Is it gourmet gold meat in sauce?
It has corn starch in it, and I think their other products too. I suspected it gave George tummy problems. I noticed he would get a bad tummy when I used it, but it never lasted long. I made a decision not to use it again and try just using honey in his regular good, but he got regulated and do I never did the experiment
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so you weren't giving him MC nor HC just his regular food and honey? did he like it?

the gourmet is some perle but i just remembered that fish products make them sensitive and it is solmon and tuna... but it turns our it is very difficult to find wet food higher in carbs, we checked all the brands that i would say would be perfect candidates....
 
Thats all for today, we r increasing a bit earlier than expected but at least we disnt go as low as yesterday, hopefully this will be enough to avoid a bounce.

good night everybody and thanks for your support
 
If you look on the ibd site you linked above it gives you more detailed information.

The dose for an adult cat would be 2.5 billion daily
But it's the sboulardii that helps with the emergency stop of diarrea.
So I don't know if it will help Cho.
I would perhaps avoid the gourmet food for now, it may be making matters worse with his tummy, additives and cornstarch.
Use LC and add honey if you need to increase the carbs for now.
 
Marina & Chico said:
Thats all for today, we r increasing a bit earlier than expected but at least we disnt go as low as yesterday, hopefully this will be enough to avoid a bounce.

good night everybody and thanks for your support
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Good on the increase. You may want to set an alarm for two hours and check that he stays up after those extra carbs have worn off.
 
Marina & Chico said:
you weren't giving him MC nor HC just his regular food and honey? did he like it?
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I didn't do the swap. I started to notice that it was upsetting this tummy for one poop after I used it. But it had got worse.
I threw out the cans, but from the day I did that I didn't need to use HC or mC again. He had a very flat curve.

But they will eat the food with honey in it. Just mix it in. You don't need much just a drop. Or two. We have members with cats wit sensitive GI who do that
Some of the cosma tins are MC. I'll have a look tomorrow for you.
 
Gill & George said:
If you look on the ibd site you linked above it gives you more detailed information.

The dose for an adult cat would be 2.5 billion daily
But it's the sboulardii that helps with the emergency stop of diarrea.
So I don't know if it will help Cho.
I would perhaps avoid the gourmet food for now, it may be making matters worse with his tummy, additives and cornstarch.
Use LC and add honey if you need to increase the carbs for now.
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The problem with sbouraldi that it will arrive the earliest in 2 weeks (and after my experience with amazon - doesnt have to arrive at all), but even 2 weeks is too long. I will try to start little dose today and see how he will react

thank you a lot for your insights
 
Marina & Chico said:
The problem with sbouraldi that it will arrive the earliest in 2 weeks (and after my experience with amazon - doesnt have to arrive at all), but even 2 weeks is too long. I will try to start little dose today and see how he will react

thank you a lot for your insights
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I actually managed to find it in a local farmacy, i’m relieved that i will have it latest by Monday
 
Maybe give him his cosma food that's LC today to give his GI system a rest.
Marina & Chico said:
I actually managed to find it in a local farmacy, i’m relieved that i will have it latest by Monday
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I was going to suggest trying a local pharmacy.
Good luck at the vets.

With the fur shot, the cycle count starts this morning again,it's as if you had a dose change, and with any dose change we wait 6 cycles for the depot to stabilise. So today 2/11 is cycle 1 again of 1.25u.
 
Gill & George said:
Maybe give him his cosma food that's LC today to give his GI system a rest.

I was going to suggest trying a local pharmacy.
Good luck at the vets.

With the fur shot, the cycle count starts this morning again, it's as if you had a dose change, and with any dose change we wait 6 cycles for the depot to stabilise. So today 2/11 is cycle 1 again of 1.25u.
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Can a FS be an active cycle? maybe it wasn't a fur shot after all :-?
 
Marina & Chico said:
Can a FS be an active cycle? maybe it wasn't a fur shot after all :-?
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Yes it can.
Usually some insulin will have got in.
And with Lantus the depot can continue to affect the early half of the next cycle anyway.
For example when some does a reduced dose because they get a lower than usual PS the first few hours usually work out as if they had shot the full dose, seeing the effect of the reduction towards the end of the cycle.
We also see this when the cat earns a reduction. The depot of the larger dose can still drag the numbers down until it adjusts to the size of the lower dose, this is why we wouldn't often take a back to back reduction.
 
Gill & George said:
Yes it can.
Usually some insulin will have got in.
And with Lantus the depot can continue to affect the early half of the next cycle anyway.
For example when some does a reduced dose because they get a lower than usual PS the first few hours usually work out as if they had shot the full dose, seeing the effect of the reduction towards the end of the cycle.
We also see this when the cat earns a reduction. The depot of the larger dose can still drag the numbers down until it adjusts to the size of the lower dose, this is why we wouldn't often take a back to back reduction.
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His PS BG are getting lower, i know that dosing change should be decided mainly based on nadir, but what should we do until then? just try to ensure nadir won't go too low for Chico to "earn" a decrease later? i expect him to lower much more around nadir due to lower PS, is that correct :-?
 
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