10/2 Apollo PMPS 158, +3 98, +4 97, +5 148, +9 127

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Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172

Nice blue this morning!!! Will you be around this morning to get a +1 and +2 check? I'm curious to see what his +1 # would be...

You may seem some green this morning, too. :mrgreen: You both are doing extremely well!!! :-D
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117

Apollo's AMPS +1 is 117. Uh oh. Shouldn't the +1 have gone up and not down?
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117

Good morning, yes +1 is usually higher but not always. That's why it's a good idea to get a +1 and +2. It looks like Apollo is going to have an "active" cycle. How well did he eat at the shot? If it were Zener, I would give him a little bit of food. You don't want to fill him up in case he needs to eat later but that's a big drop in an hour that I would want to slow down. I'm a newbie though so you might want to wait for someone with more experience to weigh in. You and Apollo are making great progress in a very short time. Well done!
Liz
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117

He ate pretty typical. He had about 75% of 3oz can. He usually grazes a bit after his AM feeding.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117

Yes. He usually eats anywhere from 50-75% of 3oz can initially then grazes over the next several hours. Sometimes I add another half can, throughout the mid morning depending on how much he ate.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, help

Apollo's AMPS +2 is 60. I'm starting to freak out now. What should I do?
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, help

Grab a can of HC, like 18%, and squeeze off the gravy (that's where most of the carbs are). feed Apollo the gravy and test in 15 mins.
I'm here with you.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, help

You've done this before. You know you can steer Apollo's numbers. You're going to repeat this process every 20 min. or so to make sure Apollo's numbers stay in a safe range.

You're instincts were good when you asked about the +1 being lower than AMPS. A +1 or +2 that's lower than your pre-shot # is a signal of an active cycle.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, help

So I was right in giving him his full dose this morning, right? Will test him again shortly.

The worst is knowing he isn't even at +3 yet and the insulin is just getting ready to come and lower him even more. :cry:
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, help

JOHN! You KNOW these dance steps! You've already done them QUITE WELL! Trust yourself - you've got great intuition. You've been christened now - you CAN do this without that panicked feeling. Breathe....

Hugs to both of you!

EDIT TO ADD: What I was told when we did this dance earlier this week was that what you're shooting right now will affect the NEXT cycle moreso than this one. Humulin N was immediately reactive when given - Lantus works differently so it's not going to hit hard like Humulin. THAT was the biggest 'brain change' I had to do.

ANOTHER hug...
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73

Apollo's AMPS +3 is 73.

So as long as I monitor him, give him a teaspoon of HC gravy as needed I can "completely" counteract the Lantus? Or only somewhat? My only concern with that approach is Apollo tends to not want to eat all the time. He wasn't that interested in eating any of the HC gravy. I had to sprinkle some fortiflora and pulverized purebites on top. He LOVES those purebites. I need to write the manufacturer with a big thank you.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, help

John, if it makes you feel any better, take a look at Blackie's spread sheet, and see what I went through this morning (sorry, but you're going to have to scroll down a bit :lol: ). I gave her the full dose of a fat 3.25u, and tested her +2, and again +3. When I saw that +2, I knew instinctively that I needed to get a +3 to be sure. I know that Apollo and Blackie are 2 different kitties, but it'll give you an idea. Blackie's a long term diabetic, too (diagnosed March 13, 2010).

You'll get to a point when you start seeing those lower #s that you'll know what to do, and how to do it. You'll have more confidence in dealing with those situations. Of course, you'll ALWAYS have your kit handy, just in case. You'll learn to read Apollo as time goes on. Sometimes, though, Apollo may have other ideas, and that's when you'll be on top of everything.

You ARE doing a wonderful job, and we're all extremely proud of you. :-D Someone will be here to help when you have questions, etc. I'll do what I can to assist, but I normally leave the more experienced eyes assist you as I'm not as expert as they are. In the meantime... Keep up the excellent work! :mrgreen:
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73

One more question. So I keep him on this dose until he earns a reduction of going under 40 a few times correct? Do I ignore the AMPS or PMPS number and keep shooting the full dose no matter what it is? Or do I alter the AMPS and PMPS dose depending on what number he is? I see some people stick with the full dose regardless and others drop it down if the AMPS or PMPS number is lower then usual. Just trying to learn more.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73

That's a nice number - 73. Good job!

Please check again in 20-30 mins.

Depending on what that number is you mat have to give him gravy again. Glad to hear the sprinkles on gravy works -

eta - I'm dropping off for now - I will be back in 20-30 mis.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73

Purebites and gravy is fine. If, on occasion, it's harder to get numbers up, add a drop or two of Karo, honey, maple syrup, etc. As long as you have a meter, strips, and HC food, you are in control of the cycle. If you take a look at Gabby's SS, you'll see that she can drop like a rock. She's been fine. In the beginning of this dance, you tend to be very concerned that you're going to do the equivalent of stepping on your cat's feet. Confidence and grace come with experience -- and you won't have to keep looking at your feet to make sure you're not going to trip over them.

Oh. And remember, green is good!
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73

Ok will test him again now.

One more question? Is it ok to give him Purina Whisker Lickin's treats instead of gravy? He will eat the treats much quicker and more easily then the gravy option. I wasn't sure if the carb count was equivalent or not, etc.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146

Good job. Check again in an hour.
Did you feed the +3/73?
I'm not familiar with those treats. If they are dry, I recommend you avoid them. Carbs in dry are slow to get on board and slow to clear out.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146

Hey John- Lots of people have given you great advice already...hang in there...

With Stella... it seems she only goes way low when her PS was higher. I have shot her full dose many times @ 100 and she holds a nice surf. This is why they say ECID and you have to 'learn' what Apollo will do... Just don't panic and be prepared. I have only given Stella Karo once (it happened last week) if you see Apollo surfs you don't have to give the syrup...you already have proven yourself capable of handling the worst... breathe! Easier said than done... I know! Don't be like me and switch doses too soon because you are afraid of the dips... wait for the proper signs!

I stopped in because Stella was +4/73 thats a good sign...or I am in for my own dip... :lol: :lol: :lol: and I am calming you down so I stay calm shortly... :smile: ;-) Have a great day! C'mon over and say Hi to Stella sometime...
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146

morning john! you're doing a great job this morning! you might want to keep notes on how much of what you're giving to steer apollo's numbers so next time you give the minimum necessary to keep him in safe ranges. you don't want to overcarb, although once when i got scared i gave punkin and enormous amount of karo & high carb. he recovered from it! :lol:
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146

Sandy and Black Kitty said:
Did you feed the +3/73?.
Click to expand...

Yes, after the +3/73, I gave him a teaspoonful of HC gravy and 1 whisker lickin soft treat.

After the +2 60, I gave him a teaspoonful of HC gravy (with 1 big drop of karo). I know giving the karo was probably a mistake, but I just kind of panicked and was worried he would go too low, since it was so early in his cycle. I am gaining confidence (slowly) that I can treat him through just food though for next time.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146

Here is a link to the treats. They are soft and I gave him the chicken flavor.

http://www.whiskerlickins.com/

Just wondered if they could be a good equivalent option to the gravy as he likes eating them much better then the HC gravy? Or if anyone has any other HC "treat" suggestions that would be great too.

Thanks everyone for all your help. Apollo and I greatly appreciate it! :smile:
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with those treats, either, especially the carb content in them. With anything that has a meal in it, it's going to stay in Apollo's system much longer (as if he ate dry kibble), than if he ate wet food gravy, which will get out of his system quicker.

All I can suggest is try another high carb wet food with gravy and see if he likes that. You may end up spending a bit in order to find the food that he'll like and want to gobble up right away.

Apollo may be bouncing from the treats, which means he'll be giving you some wonky #s for about a day or 2. He'll clear it, though. :)
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146

Angela & Blackie & 8 Others said:
All I can suggest is try another high carb wet food with gravy and see if he likes that. You may end up spending a bit in order to find the food that he'll like and want to gobble up right away.
Click to expand...

I think the part he doesn't like about the HC gravy is because it's more chunky instead of a pate. Anyone know of a good HC gravy in a pate instead of chunks we can try?
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146, +5

John & Apollo said:
Yes, after the +3/73, I gave him a teaspoonful of HC gravy and 1 whisker lickin soft treat.

After the +2 60, I gave him a teaspoonful of HC gravy (with 1 big drop of karo). I know giving the karo was probably a mistake, but I just kind of panicked and was worried he would go too low, since it was so early in his cycle. I am gaining confidence (slowly) that I can treat him through just food though for next time.
Click to expand...
Ahhh, that explains the big bump up.

Like Julie said, make detailed notes as to what you did today with the results. You want to give the minimum necessary to keep him safe. You want to see if he'll get a nice safe green surf going and you don't want to carb up to the point where you cover up a number that would signal a decrease.

I would have skipped the karo at +2 and checked again at +2.5. I also would not have fed that +3/73, I would have let it ride and checked at +3.5 then decided if another tsp would be needed.

You'll get a sense of the nuances, it's trial and error for all of us. I know it's scary.

You are doing a FABULOUS job!
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146, +5

Hi John, you are doing great! :thumbup

If you look at the ingredients in the treats they just scream carbs, in the first 6 ingredients you have flour , gluten and more gluten.
Animal liver flavor, wheat flour, corn gluten meal, water, chicken by-product meal, wheat gluten,
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The question is how quickly they get into the blood stream and long they will stick around. Generally wet food get digested faster and are used up sooner, since these are semi moist it will probably be some where in between. What you want is to get the BG up fast and then get out of Apollo's system after this cycle. Dry foods can take days to clear out because they are harder to digest.

For other gravy foods to try look at things in pouches, there tends to be more gravy in them. Friskies has several as does Wellness and they are in the MC range. I always try to use the lowest carb food that will do the job. You can just spoon the gravy out and forget the solids. Tess doesn't like them either.

One more question. So I keep him on this dose until he earns a reduction of going under 40 a few times correct? Do I ignore the AMPS or PMPS number and keep shooting the full dose no matter what it is? Or do I alter the AMPS and PMPS dose depending on what number he is? I see some people stick with the full dose regardless and others drop it down if the AMPS or PMPS number is lower then usual. Just trying to learn more.
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Usually we keep the dose the same. We do the preshot test to make sure the cat isn't too low to shoot safely (Tess has had preshots in the 40s) and to give us a heads up if the cycle is going to be active. I always test at +11 as well so I know if that preshot number is rising or falling.

There are 2 basic options for a low preshot:
  • -- stall (without feeding) until you see a rising # or a definite surf, then shoot the full dose because the stall is already acting as a reduction.
    -- Shoot a BCS, a temporary reduced shot, especially if you can't be around and don't want to skip.
    -- Skip the shot, if you have stalled for 2 hours we usually skip.
Look at Tess yesterday, she was 72 and dropping at shot time. i skipped the shot because we weren't going to be there to monitor, if we would have been home I would have shot and known I could control it w/ food. Usually now Tess only need 6& or 7% food to surf. ECID and I have found through trial and error (lots of them ohmygod_smile ) that Tess does clears sooner if I skip than if I BCS, but that is Tess.
We say "shoot low to stay low" , it is the best way to get Apollo's numbers into regulation.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146, +5

Ann said it all. :-D

As far as I know, I don't know of a pate that has a gravy in it. I think it's more of the filets, and chunks type of meats that have the gravy. I know that's not very helpful. I had to give Blackie some of the chicken filets in the chicken in gravy by Friskies (HC food, and I can't strain the gravy away from the meat so the meat gets eaten too) in order to get some of the gravy in her to keep her from dropping much further than 37 (I think that was the last low # I remember). It works, and it clears the system quicker than the dry stuff would.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +1 117, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146, +5

Thanks so much Ann for the explanation. What does "BCS" mean?
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146, +5 161, +7

Know what John? Just from your questions and comments, you've already learned a LOT! You're REALLY getting this dance down!
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo AMPS 172, +2 60, +3 73, +3.5 146, +5 161, +7

John & Apollo said:
One more question. So I keep him on this dose until he earns a reduction of going under 40 a few times correct? Do I ignore the AMPS or PMPS number and keep shooting the full dose no matter what it is? Or do I alter the AMPS and PMPS dose depending on what number he is? I see some people stick with the full dose regardless and others drop it down if the AMPS or PMPS number is lower then usual. Just trying to learn more.
Click to expand...

Apollo has to drop below 40 only once to earn a reduction. Alternatively, he can drop below 50 on three occasions to have his dose reduced.

The pre-shot tests, as Ann noted, are important so that you don't give a shot if the numbers are too low. Unlike Humulin N, Lantus dosing is based on the nadir -- the lowest point in the cycle. It's the nadir that's the important number. With Lantus, in most cases, you do not change the dose based on the pre-shot number. The reason that people may shoot a BCS dose is because they have not yet gotten to the point where they are able to (or comfortable with) shooting low.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo PMPS 158, +1 157, +2 123

Let him have some more LC food and then test in 30 min.

If numbers are still dropping at +2.5, if you have food that's around 10% carb (give or take), give Apollo some MC. You could add some gravy or a drop (literally) of Karo to LC to bump up the carbs slightly if you don't have MC food. (FWIW, I don't keep MC in the house. I have LC and HC. If you combine the two, you get MC.)
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo PMPS 158, +1 157, +2 123

Ok, just got him to have some LC. He didn't eat much, maybe a teaspoon full. Will test at +3 which is 11pm EST. If he still dropping then I will give him some MC food. Hopefully he eats it, he is getting pickier and picker with these semi-forced mini-bite meals.
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo PMPS 158, +1 157, +2 123

A tsp is plenty - it's early in the cycle - you don't want him getting full.

Don't forget the magic chicken dust. . . :mrgreen:
 
Re: 10/2 Apollo PMPS 158, +1 157, +2 123

A teaspoon of food is a fine amount. Don't expect that he'll eat a full meal.

As an example, I was antcipating that Gabby's numbers were going to drop tonight. I have started testing every 30 min. Rather than give her more food than she would ordinarily get, I have given her half of the portion she would have gotten at +3. That way, she's getting the same amount of food -- it's just divided up into smaller, more frequently fed portions.

I know you free feed Apollo. You may want to give him half of his usual amount at shot time. You can then put down more later and/or divide it up if you need to in order to feed the curve. Just a thought....
 
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