10/18 Teronto AMPS 204; +10 274 Vet Visit

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Teronto and Pauline

Member Since 2012
Morning everyone.

Keeping an eye on the boy this morning. His AMPS was 204, +2 136 and we are now at +4 56..... Another reduction in his dose maybe?

We have a vet appointment today. Hoping that goes well for him today. I don't see why it wouldn't he looks so much better from just a couple of weeks ago. His coat is nice and shinny and he's looking like he's putting on some weight. So I'm not worried.

My face is still sore and swollen but better. Still tired, but managable. Thankfully I'm home alone today. Those other human's needed to be leaving me alone and going back to work or school.

Yesterday
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 Reduce dose?

Hi Pauline,
Teronto might insist on a reduction if he drops a half dozen more points. At what point in the cycle is the vet appointment scheduled?

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 Reduce dose?

Vet appointment is at +9 in the cycle.

He's on my lap right now curled up in his blanky purring away. I want to have him close to keep my eye on him and test him here in a few minutes. He doesn't seem to mind.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 Reduce dose?

Ok, good. I'll watch for the next test result.
Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 Reduce dose?

I tested a few minutes early. Something just didn't FEEL right. BG is 39....needless to say he's now chowing on some food.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 Reduce dose?

Is is low, medium or high carb? And yes, the next shot is probably going to be .5u :smile:

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

Do you have high carb available? Something with gravy? Can you test again in 20 minutes from the last test? You might not see a rise that soon, but you need to see if he's going lower.

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

I'm shaking and crying. He got all drunk like and ran off on me to hide under my bed! Took me forever to get out. I gave him some honey.

I've never seen anything like that and I NEVER WANT TO SEE IT AGAIN! I'm so freaked out.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

OK, Pauline. It sounds like his numbers went lower than 39. Can you test him again? Maybe shut off the door so he can't run off and hide. You're going to want to keep a close eye on him.

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

Breathe sweetheart, tears are OK but DEEP BREATHS PLEASE! Don't let this hiccup get to you - you CAN do this!!! Go for the HC, honey and gravy....

You're not alone...BREATHE!!!!!!!!
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

Pauline,
What you want to try to do is NOT fill him up with food. For now, you stick with liquids...honey, gravy, karo. His numbers might be low for while, and you want him to be able to fit food in his belly when we get to the point that solid food makes more sense. The honey will make his number go up, but it won't last long, so you will need to try testing every 20-30 minutes for at least the next hour or two.

You aren't alone here.

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

Scared Me! Me and all the animals. Sister Peyote and Doggie Sisters Roxie and Hayley all ran after him once he started acting drunk.

I'm planted infront of the computer with the honey right infrom of me and all the test strips and everything else I need including Teronto.

Last time he dipped down to 40 we were okay. I fed him and gave him a little honey and all was good. This time was so different and so scary!
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

Pauline-
I just popped on real quick before a client showed up. You've got some excitement going in your home, don't ya?

Keep breathing. I'm sure that must have been scary for you. But what a blessing that you are home and able to monitor Teronto and you are doing what you need to do to keep him safe. Sounds like you are doing better. Again, slow deep breaths.

you are in good hands with Carl.

:YMHUG:
Karen
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

I can understand the "scary", although I never had to deal with anything like that with Bob. The lowest he ever tested was 42, and acted completely normal.

If this happens again, as soon as you see the 39, go with something higher carb than low carb, even if it's just low carb with a little honey mixed in.

How much honey did you give him (for future reference)?

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

67 is good. You can feed him a teaspoon of his regular food if he's hungry, and test again in 30 minutes?

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

Just a dab and I have a syringe (no needle) filled with honey water that I've been giving him a little of.

Last time I have him low carb with a dash of honey and this time I just wasn't thinking...I didn't put the honey on it. I feel awful!
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39 Reduce do

Don't feel bad! He's in good hands, you're doing terrific with this. Bob was on insulin for 10 weeks or so, and I never had to "deal with" low numbers. You've done it twice in the last 5 days! You've done two different things with two different "lows", and it's all a learning experience for everyone. Now you can compare this time to that time, and see what works best.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39; 50; 62;

it's crazy how fast it happened. It was like watching lightening.

I think he either knows he's not okay or that I'm still super upset cause he got down and ate, hide behind the couch and then came back into the kitchen and crawled up onto my lap.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39; 50; 62;

I think he either knows he's not okay or that I'm still super upset cause he got down and ate, hide behind the couch and then came back into the kitchen and crawled up onto my lap.

I've seen behavior like that with many of my kitties over the years. When you're stressed, sick, upset about something, they seem to know it, and act accordingly to try to make things better. It's pretty amazing.

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39; 50; 62;

Thank you Carl for being here when this hit. I'm all alone at home today...which I thought was great.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39; 50; 62;

Was home alone until a little while ago. Hub's is here now helping me. which is good.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39; 50; 62;

Pauline,
You are very welcome. :smile: I haven't been around much the past couple of weeks (trying to deal with "life issues") and today I logged on just to check in. Glad I did, and happy to help!

The vet appointment today.... anything specific going on, or is it just a checkup? You'll be able to report that Teronto is down to a .5u unit dose :-D

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56 +4.3ish 39; 50; 62;

Hi Pauline,
I'm so glad you were home today and caught this.
You are doing great.
I bet Teronto did know and was really scared and now he knows to hang out with mamabean.
Yay Carl for being here to help!!
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

He's at +5.5 82


We are just going in for a two week check up from when he was diagnosed with FD. Not sure how the vet will feel. I haven't talked to him at all, just my husband at the first visit since this whole thing started. I reduced his beginning dose from 10 units once a day as prescribed to 1 unit twice a day once I joined here and learned a few things from the some many generous people here. The vet didn't even want us to change his diet. Which I did....LOL This vet visit will be interesting to say the least. So now the vet gets to talk with me today. I will try to play nice....maybe. :-D
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

Good number! He's not skyrocketing up, which is good to see. You can give him another spoon or not, your call. Just get a +6 to see where he's at.

I think I'd print out his SS and take it with me to the vet. He may not like you disregarding his advice, but if he's smart, he'll take one look at the numbers and realize that what you have done has worked amazingly well. You can't argue with the reality of the numbers.
And, seeing as how .75u today was just a smidge "too much", I don't think he can tell you that 10 units was anywhere close to a good or safe dose. He'll also see that low carb canned food is the right way to go.
Bottom line? He should learn something that will help the next diabetic cat that comes in to his clinic.

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

It's not too hard to deal with vets who don't know. ( just don't be catty :lol: )
I'd be quite interested in hearing if he admits he dosed too high ( somehow doubt it) or that diet makes a Huge difference.
I hope you will be able to educate him so he doesn't repeat that mistake with someone else.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

+6 in 8 minutes and counting. LOL

I'm good at making people see my way. Just ask the Hubs. :lol:
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

Just to recap his day...

AMPS 205 (.75u)
+2 136
+4 56
+4.3ish 39 (fed LC) (acted "drunk" and ran to hide under the bed) (gave honey)
+4.6 62
+5 67
+5.5 82
+6 98

Pauline, can you edit that, and insert what you fed and when during the cycle? Just so anyone checking in late can see what it took to bring his numbers up.

Looking very good!
Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

Not sure how to edit it but to just copy and paste. :)

AMPS 205 (.75u)
+2 136
+4 56
+4.3ish 39 (fed 1/2 can of LC) (acted "drunk" and ran to hide under the bed) (gave honey)
+4.5 50 (syringe fed honey water)
+4.75 62
+5 67 (teaspoon of LC and a dash of honey)
+5.5 82
+6 98

Should I keep checking him every 1/2 hour?
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

I think you could go with 60 minutes this time. Assuming he's flat or rising, then after that, maybe just before you leave for the vet (so if they check him there, you can see how much stress shows up in their number). It looks like he's up enough, and will hang out there for a while. You did a great job with this, Pauline. :smile:

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

I can't thank you enough for being here.

And I'm just amazed at how fast it all happened. I heard (read) that it could happen fast but you just don't know how fast it really happens until it happens.

What's has me amazed is that we just reduced his dose a few days ago.

I'm glad I stayed home today to just rest up from my dental surgery. Still not 100%. It's a school day for me too and class starts right around the time this hit. I obviously stayed home from class too. But had I gone to work I would have been in class and no one would have been home until around the time to take him to the vet.

We got very lucky today.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

I'm a big believer that stuff happens for a reason. So yes, today happened just the way it was supposed to! It isn't rare, once things start to improve, that they do so at a rapid pace. If you look at Lisa and Leo's week, Leo had 2 reductions in 3 days, I think. Teronto's progress looks very encouraging to me. :smile:

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

Maybe too much honey and food....134. But I will say. I like BLUE! I LIKE BLUE!!! As a matter of fact at this particular moment I'm IN LOVE with blue, yellow, pink, red. Black even looks okay. Green just makes me twitchy and sick to my stomach right now.

He is sleeping like the dead. I tested him and he didn't even flinch. Wish I was so lucky. One sound and I'm wide awake.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

Looking back on what you fed him, I don't think it was necessarily too much, Pauline. Most of the honey would be "gone" by now, and you only used low carb food. I think the rise is more due to "bounce" than to over-carbing, and bouncing just happens to most cats who go that low. Blue is much easier to deal with though!

You might see a pink or red number at shot time, but that'll be due to bouncing, and you just have to live with what his numbers happen to be. He still earned a .25u reduction tonight. :-D

If he does bounce pretty high, you do have the option of what they call "shooting through the bounce" tonight, and stay with .75u for this cycle, and take the reduction in the morning. Or, you can reduce tonight. That's totally your call. But that's a few hours away from now. Let's see what the vet has to say, and what sort of number you see at PMPS before worrying about that.

Carl
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

Pauline you have done great. :thumbup Just wanted to check in on you and Teronto. Esp since you will be going to the vet soon. I really like the idea of printing your spreadsheet and bringing in the information from this website and catinfo.org. Hopefully your vet is willing to be educated. You are the CG and you are the one in charge of the syringe. In many ways, you get to call the shots.

Hang in there. You now have so much more information than you did before... think of it that way. :smile: Even if it did come with some nailbite_smile .

Teronto is looking great and has a wonderful mamabean looking after him. And, I'm with Carl. These things happen for a reason and all you can do is be grateful you were there for Teronto. I think back to Furball's dip on 9/27 and the fact that since I worked later that day I was able to catch him low (just by 'chance') and tag team w/ DH through our work schedules to keep him safe.

Karen
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

What a scare you had! So, the lesson for the day: Numbers below 50 warrant HC food.

You and Carl did great. There's no way to know if LC would have brought the numbers up. They very well might have but wouldn't have done so very quickly. HC (gravy, honey, Karo, etc.) will bump the numbers up much faster but it can take 30 min. or more for food to high the bloodstream. Today was a day when you wanted to slam on the brakes vs. coming to a slow stop.

I'd love to hear about your vet visit. If you vet wasn't embarrassed by his instructions, I'd be very surprised.
 
Re: 10/18 Teronto AMPS 204;+2 136;+4 56+4.3ish39;+5.5 82

Great job today, Pauline (and great help, Carl). Congratulations on the dose reduction!

In admiration,

Ella & Rusty
 
We're Back.

Mr. T is flopped on the living room floor looking at all of us like we've lost our minds. He's got his smurky King of the Castle look. And acting like he didn't give me the BIGGEST SCARE today or that he was so stressed out at the vets that he hid behind my Hubs.

So, the verdict please. I know you all are itching to know.

We didn't get the Vet that diagnosed him or prescribed 10 units. In fact we got a totally new Vet and I LOVE HER!!

She asked how he was doing and I so I told her about the 10 units (which I'm sure she already knew) and I told her that I switched him to 1 unit twice a day. She was amazed that he was prescribed that and said she would have probably started his dose out as 2 units twice a day. I also let her know that a few days ago I had to drop him down to .75 Units. I told her about the episode we had today and she's thinking that I should not give him any insulin anymore. I'm not sure if I'm comfortable taking him off the insulin but she looked at his SS and says that he's probably been doing symogy (hope I spelled that right, probably not though). Any thoughts on that? She said to try and if nothing else I can always put him back on it if needed.

We also talked about me doing the BG Tests and she was happy to hear that I was testing him often at home and monitoring him. And she was also happy to hear that I put him on Wellness canned food and wanted to know where in town I found it.

I told her about this forum and she wrote it down so she can direct other people here in town to it.

What amazed me most was she was so understanding. Come to find out she had had a diabetic cat as well once. She want's me to email Teronto's SS to her for his chart. I have her card and I believe I've now found a GOOD Vet for Teronto. No blood work for him today she said it wasn't necessary since I was monitoring him at home and that it would probably just be elevated any how since he was obviously showing signs of stress.

The best news is he's gained a little weight. Apparenty he lost 2 lbs, at diagnosis day he had dropped down to 9.6 lbs he's now at 9.12 lbs.

So....Teronto's BGs as soon as I walked in the door was 274. When we left he was at 173
 
Overall, sounds like a great vet visit! I'm thrilled to read this, Pauline. This vet sounds like a "keeper".

Somogyi..... You can read up on it, but bottom line is that it is a theory developed nearly 100 years ago, and at best, today, it is considered "suspect" as far as being a valid theory.
What you are seeing, when Teronto shows you higher numbers, is a perfectly natural instinctive reaction to low BG numbers. His body is designed to self-protect itself against a rapid or big drop in BG levels. Just about every cat on insulin does that. A diabetic cat's body becomes used to above normal BG numbers, and many times, if they drop down to perfectly safe "normal" levels, the instincts kick in. Because "normal", to him, is not "normal", if that makes sense. When the insulin pushes him down into normal ranges, it is doing its job - the job that his pancreas would be doing if it were working correctly. But his system no longer feels comfortable with "normal", so it produces glucagon, glycogen, and other hormones that in effect dump "sugar" into his bloodstream to raise the BG to a level that feels "normal". Sometimes it really dumps, and a kitty can go from green numbers to red numbers in a matter of hours. It's actually a good thing when their BG goes down into the normal range, and the more often it happens, the more chance their systems will "relearn normal", and when that happens, the bouncing up and down seems to happen less often, or less severely.

Some people refer to this as "somogyi". My understanding of somogyi rebound is that it is something that becomes chronic, and the numbers continue to spiral up and up. I may not understand it perfectly though. I think the major issue is that people seem to use "somogyi", "bouncing" and "rebound" interchangeably, when really they are all slightly different concepts. Most people (not here however) suggest that the treatment to correct these ups and downs is to reduce the dose or stop the insulin completely like your vet suggests. From what I have observed from reading here, that usually fails as a strategy, and the dose ends up having to go right back up, or maybe even needs to go higher until the numbers start to come back down again.

Today's cycle shows that .75u worked really really well, a little bit too well in fact. That's why the protocol calls for an automatic reduction in dose because at this point, .75u is more than is needed. That dose should keep his numbers from getting worse, and should avoid another episode like today. Eventually however, the same sort of thing could happen on .5u, because as this is going on, his body is getting better. His numbers each day will tell you what the reduced dose is doing for him, and they will indicate when it is time to (hopefully) reduce the dose again.

There are a lot of people here who have been dealing with FD for a lot longer than I've been aware of the disease. They'll probably be able to explain all of this better than I can, and I'm sure they'll chime in. My opinion - Teronto is doing really well, and Lantus is working very well for him. He's on a really small dose of insulin, and with the weight gain, and your observations that he looks better overall, I see lots of reason for you to feel very encouraged.

Carl
 
The issue of chronic Somogyi rebound is a soapbox issue for me. The topic periodically comes up and I'll try to to rant. First, there's a difference between what we term a "bounce" and Somogyi. I've done a couple of lit searches in medical and veterinary databases and the overall conclusion is that what was described as "Somogyi" back in 1938 has never been reliably replicated. In addition, the original human research was done with only a handful of subjects and urine glucose was being tested -- not blood glucose. Finally, there is no research on this phenomenon using a long acting insulin like Lantus or Levemir.

With the dosing protocol we use, doses are raised in small amounts in a systematic way. This drastically minimizes the risk of Somogyi. However, a cat can bounce -- it's just not a chronic situation.
 
I feel encouraged to keep him on insulin and to keep poking his ear. I don't like just abruptly stopping his shots. I've skipped a few and by the time his next shot is he's in the "Hi" how ya doing Black Range.

I am however worried about what will happen while I'm out of town here soon....I'd rather the Teronto Sitter NOT give him anything but then that wouldn't be good either. Maybe depending on where we are at he can give him a reduced reduced dose.
 
I'd reduce the dose to 0.5u. It's possible that the 10u dose jump started Teronto's pancreas but, like you, that +500 number on 10/15 doesn't make me happy.

When are you leaving?
 
We leave for Maui on the 27th. I'm nervous about leaving him. I know I'm going to be calling multiple times a day.

Ya I don't like that number either. AND HOLY! His PMPS is 449!
 
Pauline

What a stressful day you had. Good catch and great job bringing the 39 back up.

I also had a vet tell me I was "killing" Gracie when she was on 1u of lantus and bouncing. The vet said it was classic somogyi and I should take her off Insulin immediately.

We've learned here that cats have a stronger remission when the dose is gradually decreased even down to just a drop. When they are in normal numbers and earn a reduction from that small amount, it has allowed the pancreas more time for support until its ready to function on its own.

Good luck with the .5u reduction. And you learned today how to effectively deal with low numbers :-D
 
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