10/16/14 Oz Wondering if it's ok to raise his dose

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Ian & Oz

Member Since 2014
Hello,
Well Oz has been on a dose of 1.75u now for at least 7 days, there were a few days that looked promising but otherwise
he's been staying around the high 200's to 300's. Yesterday I gave him a fur shot which was very disappointing, I just really want to get him regulated & like quite a few here don't understand why he goes into good numbers then climbs back up & stays there.
The next level dose would be 2.0u, I'm wanting to make sure based on his chart that it's ok to move up, any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You
Ian
 
Hi Ian!

Yes, I think you can increase his dose by 0.25u to 2.0u per shot.

From your comments here and on the spreadsheet, i'm thinking you think you gave a furshot because his numbers didn't move yesterday for several hours? Is that right? I think the reason his blood sugar was staying high is because he bounced after hitting the green numbers on 10/11, then he cleared the bounce on 10/14. He probably was a little lower than 100 that afternoon and when you caught the 115 he was on his way back up at that point.

He bounced again from that point, and i think that was the cause of the solid pink day you saw yesterday.

Read the second post in the link I gave you above - it describes what bouncing is. It's really common and just part of this. Oz's body has gotten used to higher numbers and it is reacting to the lower ranges as though they are dangerous to him, when they aren't. The more time he spends in normal numbers (50-120) the more his body will "remember" that range as normal. I will say that overall he looks pretty good.

Even if you did have a furshot, you have enough days on the 1.75 to see that he can use a little more insulin. I"m looking at the Tight Regulation Protocol yellow starred sticky and looking at the nadirs (low points) in each cycle that you have been seeing on the 1.75u dose. Mostly he's having nadirs in the 100's, so I've highlighted the part below that would apply to him at this time.

Increasing the dose:
Hold the dose for 3 - 5 days (6 - 10 consecutive cycles) if nadirs are less than 200 before increasing the dose by 0.25 unit.
if your cat is new to numbers under 200, it is recommended to hold the dose for at least 8-10 cycles before increasing.


when your cat starts to see nadirs under 100, hold the dose for at least 10 cycles before increasing.

After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 200, but less than 300 increase the dose by 0.25 unit.

After 3 days (6 consecutive cycles)... if nadirs are greater than 300 increase the dose by 0.5 unit.

I saw a few days ago that you stalled for a while to see if he was coming up before you shot. If you are interested in TR, we encourage new people to go ahead and shoot everything over 150 unless your cat seems sick or isn't eating at all. Experienced people will shoot everything over 50 - but you want to work up to that. Learning to shoot low (which means shooting the regular dose into normal numbers) as soon as is safe is the path to getting a cat off of insulin. For now, go ahead and post if you have a preshot of less than 150 and someone will likely have you stall for 30 minutes without feeding, then shoot. We do encourage people to try to wrap their heads around the idea of shooting normal numbers as soon as they understand a little more about how their cat responds to insulin.

It's a good idea in general, for cats on Lantus & Levemir to re-evaluate the dose about every 6 cycles (3 days), look at the nadirs you've been seeing & compare to the guidelines above and decide if you should hold the dose a little longer or increase the dose. You do a great job of testing so it's pretty easy to see how he's reacting to the current dose. If you're interested, the idea of tight regulation is that if a cat's blood sugar is held between 50-120 on a human glucometer, the cat's pancreas has the potential to heal and begin producing insulin again. Cats are unique in their ability to do this. That stats are that over 90% of cats who get their blood sugar controlled in the first month after diagnosis can go off of insulin and become diet-controlled. The chances are best soon after diagnosis, but we've had cats go off of insulin even 2-3 years later. That's why there are so many people on TR - we don't know which cats will be able to do that, but it's a worthy goal for many people.

Glad to see you here! Please ask as many questions as you have - we're happy to help you learn what you need to know to help Oz. :-D
 
I just got done reading through some of your earlier posts. The shooting low thing is really counter-intuitive. You think if Oz dropped from 207 to 93 (oct 11) on 1.75, then if you shot 1.75 into a preshot of 100, he'll end up at zero. But it just doesn't work that way. When a cat has been worked up methodically to a good dose, starting at a reasonable dose and working up by appropriate increments (0.25u or 0.5u, depending on the nadirs), you can anticipate that shooting the full dose into the normal numbers will just flatten out the cycle, and instead of a zig-zag in numbers, or even a curve, you might have a straight line through the whole 12 hours. The cat's blood sugar might only move 10-15 points in the whole 12 hours.

It's strange, but true. :lol:

Here is a post I wrote recently to try to explain what typically happens when you shoot low, and how to get to the point where you can do that safely: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=121668&p=1266813#p1266813. Take a look at it, including looking at the links and spreadsheets. You want to notice what happens when the people gave their regular dose in a green amps - then look across that cycle and notice how much the blood sugar moves. The first time it might move more than it does in subsequent shots.

it is a weird thing, so please ask questions so we can help you understand whatever seems unclear.
 
Hi Julie,
Thank you very much for your replies & for all of the information, it's truly helpful.
I've had a hard time understanding shooting low numbers with what I'd think would be a high dose, so many new things to understand. I'm going to start his 2.0u dose tonight, hoping that will help get him into better numbers.
I'll look over the links you sent & see what questions I might have.
Still trying to understand all of the different things that can cause a bounce, kinda feels like you're caught in a never ending bounce sometimes, unsure of the readings that you get.
Again, I really appreciate your help, Thank You!

Ian
 
Ian

Yes, sometimes the bounces can seem that way. Different things that can cause a bounce are:

--rapid drops in BG (ECID.....I know my Gracie is going to bounce fairly hard if she drops more than 70 mg/dL/hour); sometimes the rapid drops can cause a harder bounce than the lower numbers. And I've also found with Gracie that the rapid drops seem to have a delayed bounce.

--lower numbers than the liver is used to; when our kitties are first diagnosed, they've likely been at higher numbers a bit and the body has somewhat adjusted to this new "normal" that isn't really normal. Once they start experiencing lower numbers (not low ones, just lower than they are used to), the liver reacts to keep the body safe and bring it back to what it considers to now be "normal". When you get to a dose where they spend more time in blue and then green, then the liver adjusts and bouncing will hopefully diminish and eventually disappear.

--low numbers; how low depends on the kitty and the dose; sometimes if the dose is perfect, there is enough insulin that the bounce isn't too high or too bad. Again....it totally depends on the cat.

It's great that Oz is seeing some blue and green on this dose. Hopefully the 2u dose will help him get a little more into normal numbers.
 
One of the other "weird" things that happens is that when you get to the "sweet spot" in dose, which typically requires increasing in dose, often the blood sugar will make a fairly noticeable, significant change and the bouncing will lessen and stop.

It seems like endless bouncing when you're at the point you are now - and yes, sometimes cats will go from one bounce into the next one. That's why new people will often ask for help evaluating what they are seeing on the ss and figuring out whether or not you should increase or hold the dose. Once a person has some experience it's not hard to spot the bouncing and then we go by what is happening in between the bounces, ie, how low he gets on that particular dose.
 
Thank you so much Julie & Marje!

I can only hope to understand the bouncing, slowly, a little at a time, it all sinks in.
Just so much to think about from the beginning, but I'm determined to help him.
He's had his first dose of 2.0u tonight & I'll be testing him soon.

Thanks Again!
Ian
 
Good luck with the increase.

Just remember that most cats bounce and you can't control it so its best to try and roll with it. :-D
 
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