10/14 Apollo PMBG 142

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Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA) said:
Has it been particularly hot where you live? Sometimes hot weather can affect the appetite.
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No actually it has been freezing cold here. We recently moved from Florida to West Virginia.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Marjorie and Gracie said:
John:

Take a look at his phosphorus level and compare it to his 7/11 bloodwork. Kitties in renal insufficiency can have increasing phosphorus levels and that can make them go off their food as it can make them have upset tummies. You want to see his phosphorus level close to 4. If it's creeping up to 5, then I would start being concerned about getting him on a low phosphorus diet. I cannot figure out why but there are alot of vets out there who think that 5 is a normal number for P for an adult cat. If the cat has always been there and it's his/her baseline, well ok.. BUT the reference range for normal for P for cats includes kittens and kittens always have a much higher P level than adult cats.
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His phosphorus level is 3.7 mg/dL and on 7/13/11 it was 5.3 mg/dL. So he went down quite a bit.

Marjorie and Gracie said:
If he's nauseous, he might sniff and walk away from his food or he might drool; he also might lick his lips, sit in a meat loaf or like a sphinx. Sometimes kitties with a little extra acid in their tummies will vomit a clear, foamy liquid.
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He doesn't really do that. He comes over and eats for a maybe 5 minutes (slow eater). Then has enough and walks off. Usually he comes back in 30 minutes or an hour or so for more. So he does have an appetite, but just wants to eat little meals which is fine, but the amount of food added up over the course of the day just isn't enough for me to be comfortable yet. He does lick his lips a lot right after eating. Apollo used to vomit a clear foamy liquid CONSTANTLY. Especially before we got his numbers down.

Marjorie and Gracie said:
It's often good to give them a pepcid ac (1/4 of 10mg) at night before you go to bed and to also feed at night late....the food in the tummy also helps absorb any acid.
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I'm going to give that a try.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

julie & punkin said:
hi john - so glad you got him in and looked at. seems kinda puzzling because his appetite has changed, right? he hasn't always eaten such a small amount. but he hasn't lost weight either. the fact that his appetite has dropped would still make me think something isn't quite right.
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Yes his appetite has steadily dropped from when we first started on the wet food 3 weeks ago. At the beginning he was eating easily two or more 3oz cans of wet food a day. Then little by little went down. I expected it to decrease as his numbers went down, but I didn't expect his food intake to drop this much. Actually I thought maybe it would even go up since he was feeling better. My other 2 cats will eat as much as you put down. Apollo not so much.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

I have been giving him a Lifelink Xobaline Methylcobalamin B12 pill since 10/01/11. Would that have any impact on his appetite or no?
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Is this an accurate synopsis: he isn't losing weight, doesn't seem to be under weight, and all other indicators seem to indicate good health, even bgs?
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Linda for Weezer said:
Is this an accurate synopsis: he isn't losing weight, doesn't seem to be under weight, and all other indicators seem to indicate good health, even bgs?
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Correct.

The only thing physically I am concerned with is he is pretty frail in the back end and has some neuropathy. I would like him to regain (if possible) some more muscle in the back end as it's pretty bony back there. But then again he is a 14 year old cat, so not sure if that will ever come back fully.

I just keep looking at the amount of calories he is taking in and assume at some point he will begin losing weight if only taking in a limited supply of calories each day.

Also I never paid much attention to how much he was eating when on dry food. He mostly ate during the night and grazed all day long. So maybe he just doesn't eat that much and that's normal for him.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Please excuse the sexist reference. Nursing mothers don't obsess about how much baby is eating because they can't check the amount left in the bottle. Maybe his good overall health is giving you permission to provide the best food he will eat and just relax and let him eat it. I think you have done an absolutely excellent job of trying to tweeze out any potential problems, but maybe there just aren't any right now.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Do you have any idea how much (calorie-wise) Apollo was eating the year before he was diagnosed?

I'm wondering if your comparison is valid. He may not have been eating as much as you think. As his diabetes began, his appetite would have increased. That was why he was eating up to 3 cans of food per day. His appetite would be expected to decrease as he becomes better regulated.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

If I remember correctly, Blackie was ravenous when she was first diagnosed, and now she tells me when it's time to eat (like right now). That might be how Apollo is now. I hope that he'll eat normally soon for you. I know it's worrisome. *HUGS* Hang in there, John.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

John & Apollo said:
Linda for Weezer said:
Is this an accurate synopsis: he isn't losing weight, doesn't seem to be under weight, and all other indicators seem to indicate good health, even bgs?
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Correct.

The only thing physically I am concerned with is he is pretty frail in the back end and has some neuropathy. I would like him to regain (if possible) some more muscle in the back end as it's pretty bony back there. But then again he is a 14 year old cat, so not sure if that will ever come back fully.
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You've gotten lots of great advice with regards to food.

My Mario is 16 and pretty frail and boney in the back end because he has arthritis. Have you looked into that as a potential issue? You could be looking at arthritis in combination with neuropathy, or maybe it's just plain arthritis. There are treatment options if he does have arthritis...cosequin, dasuquin, adequan. Mario is on adequan, and while he's still boney and frail, he's also much looser and spunkier. Just something to consider discussing with your vet...
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Hi guys .. lovely blue start to the day for apollo .. I wish the appy would pick back up .. Before mocha was diagnosed we'd wake up in the mornings and find both bowls polished clean .. once she went to wet food, it was the same ordeal but as her numbers came down she eventually got to the point where even if there was food left in her bowl, she would walk away from it .. We weigh her and her weight always seems steady .. I know it can be a worry though .. I hope you guys have a great weekend!
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Linda for Weezer said:
Please excuse the sexist reference. Nursing mothers don't obsess about how much baby is eating because they can't check the amount left in the bottle. Maybe his good overall health is giving you permission to provide the best food he will eat and just relax and let him eat it. I think you have done an absolutely excellent job of trying to tweeze out any potential problems, but maybe there just aren't any right now.
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My wife says the same thing. :smile:
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Sienne and Gabby said:
Do you have any idea how much (calorie-wise) Apollo was eating the year before he was diagnosed?

I'm wondering if your comparison is valid. He may not have been eating as much as you think. As his diabetes began, his appetite would have increased. That was why he was eating up to 3 cans of food per day. His appetite would be expected to decrease as he becomes better regulated.
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Unfortunately I have no idea. All 3 cats were given dry to free feed from. I know Apollo would eat mostly during the night as he is 3rd in rank in our house. That was the time when the other cats were sleeping and he could get his food share without resistance.

Yeah I would have expected his appetite to decrease as he became better regulated, but I guess I didn't think it would reduce this much. On a positive note, he does seem healthier then he has in a very long time. He isn't sleeping as much and coming out to play more. He comes up the stairs to hang out with me in the office more often, etc. Maybe it is best to just keep giving some alternative foods to see how he does and let it be for now.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

TrixieCat said:
You've gotten lots of great advice with regards to food.

My Mario is 16 and pretty frail and boney in the back end because he has arthritis. Have you looked into that as a potential issue? You could be looking at arthritis in combination with neuropathy, or maybe it's just plain arthritis. There are treatment options if he does have arthritis...cosequin, dasuquin, adequan. Mario is on adequan, and while he's still boney and frail, he's also much looser and spunkier. Just something to consider discussing with your vet...
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No never thought of that. How would they be able to determine if it is arthritis? Apollo is able to jump up and go up and down the stairs without any issue. But I have noticed that he is sitting more instead of standing in a spot for a long period of time and has his back legs turned out a bit to give more support. I think he has some neuropathy from the diabetes as he never did that before he was diagnosed. I am going to keep up with the daily B12 pills as they can't hurt anything only help.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

Maybe if I just give things a rest for a bit and give him a few weeks to see how he does. Then take him in to check his weight. If his weight is steady, then I guess he is eating enough for him to be healthy at this point.

One last question: I mentioned in yesterday's condo that:

The vet said he was extremely impressed with Apollo's BG numbers and he looked at my spreadsheet. He said he felt like I could have Apollo go off the insulin for a while and see how he does. He didn't feel like he needed it anymore at this point in time (not sure if I agree with that). He said I can continue to test and keep an eye on it and if he starts to go back up then slowly start the insulin up again, but for now in his opinion he would give it a rest for a while.

How does everyone feel about that? He does seem to be holding steady in the blues right now.
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

It looks like you are doing so wonderfully with Apollo. I'll let the guru's answer your last question. But my limited understanding is that it is better to come off the juice slowly. It looks like you've gone from 1U to no shots the last several cycles and that seems like a big drop. Have a wonderful weekend!
 
Re: 10/14 Apollo AMBG 158

John:

Good news on the phosphorus. It's odd that it came down but it's good news.

We don't typically take cats off insulin here when they are in mid-blues. We like to see them tightly regulated in green all the time. That gives them a much better chance of staying off the juice. IMHO, I wouldn't stop his insulin....he was making great progress and I wouldn't be surprised (I'm not predicting here....just wouldn't be surprised) if he doesn't start throwing you alot of green and get OTJ. But....no crystal ball.

Amy has a good point...if he does have arthritis and is in pain, it could be affecting other things....even his BG. We have an old, arthritic boy and he's on buprenex for pain because none of the other remedies helped him. But he has a form of congenital arthritis. An xray can tell if Apollo has arthritis and if he does, he could start some supplements. Also....renal issues can cause muscle wasting.
 
Apollo's PMBG is 142. Tried a new food tonight and he ate a little better (about half a 3oz can). His numbers are holding steady in the blue even without the shots, so that's good.
 
John & Apollo said:
Apollo's PMBG is 142. Tried a new food tonight and he ate a little better (about half a 3oz can). His numbers are holding steady in the blue even without the shots, so that's good.
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John, How often are you feeding Apollo? Do you still leave food out for him to graze? Morgaine eats 1.5 oz 4x a day and a couple of snacks totally about 7.5 oz a day. I don't leave it out for her, especially since it dries up easily. If Apollo eats 1.5 oz at a time that is a good amount for one feeding. Just trying to offer some alternatives for feeding Apollo. Maybe he likes his wet food fresher. I keep leftovers in the fridge and warm them in the microwave for 7-8 seconds.

Also, have you tried giving him something like home cooked chicken or FF appetizers just to see if he will eat more? Then you would have a better idea about whether he likes his food or not. Of course those are not nutritionally balanced so you can't feed it all of the time but it will give you info.

Morgaine is also a 14 pound cat.
 
i know you've asked about the insulin a couple of times - if he were mine, i would want to see numbers under 100 most of the time before i stopped giving him insulin. it's hard to know because he hasn't had any for a couple of days, but again, if he were mine, i'd probably give a .25 or .1 twice a day for a little while to give his pancreas some support.

seems like you've done a great job ruling out more serious things, so honestly, i think i would stop worrying too much about how much he's eating. if he's not losing weight, the bottom line is that he's eating enough to support his current weight. if he starts losing weight, then you could revisit the question. some cats just don't eat very much.

my little civvie (non diabetic) always seems not very interested in food. she never finishes her 1.5 oz, takes forever to even walk to her bowl (she slides along the wall like she's sneaking by punkin) and by the time she gets to her food punkin has nearly finished his. she's quite healthy, she's just not very interested in food. if she were a human, she'd be a skinny teenage girl. i'm getting the idea that it might be that his bigger appetite was from the diabetes being uncontrolled and now you're seeing it controlled.
 
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