? 10/13 Sootie B/W and U/S update; ambg 100

[HWright]

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...nks-for-s-s-labs-help-and-10-86-12-85.166579/

Good morning and thanks all for u/s and lab work support and patience. Bringing BO to vetty this morning and will ask/task vetty to detail about Sootie's yesterday results.

Sootie in 100 at ambg. Anti-jinx. And @Gussie's mom : Pretty close to the if ya "squint its " zone, yes?! Appy iffy again this morning but guzzled remedies, and returns to food for a tsp or so at a time. So far I'm calling am's reading a bg; if appy picks up in next hour and retest #s higher, may change to ps, dose depending on appy, #s.

Have day all and healing vines all around. Thanks with all my heart from Sootie and silly ol' me

 

[carfurby (GA)]

I hope Sootie's appy picks up. Good luck at the vet. I hope you get some answers. Sending prayers.

 

[Gussie's mom (GA)]

http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/...nks-for-s-s-labs-help-and-10-86-12-85.166579/

Good morning and thanks all for u/s and lab work support and patience. Bringing BO to vetty this morning and will ask/task vetty to detail about Sootie's yesterday results.

Sootie in 100 at ambg. Anti-jinx. And @Gussie's mom : Pretty close to the if ya "squint its " zone, yes?! Appy iffy again this morning but guzzled remedies, and returns to food for a tsp or so at a time. So far I'm calling am's reading a bg; if appy picks up in next hour and retest #s higher, may change to ps, dose depending on appy, #s.

Have day all and healing vines all around. Thanks with all my heart from Sootie and silly ol' me

Works for me on the squinting! I'm doing that myself this morning!

 

[HWright]

Works for me on the squinting! I'm doing that myself this morning!

I hope Sootie's appy picks up. Good luck at the vet. I hope you get some answers. Sending prayers.

Thanks always and in all ways , til soon and happy squinting and surfing

 

[HWright]

Traditional vetty and I talked more about Sootie's test results this morning. He hadn't read the notes on bottom of u/s report (much of it illegible) but he translated it as:

"Other: intestines a couple of loops have thickened walls (3.4mm) especially muscular layer (1.7mm)
Assessment: thick intestines with mild lympadenopathy [inflammation]. r/d infiltrater neoplasia [cancer]. Severe IBD"

He agrees about IBD and inflammation, does not agree with the u/s assessment of neoplasia/cancer. Says b/w indicators that are low would high if that were the case.
And agrees to approach inflammation and IBD holistically and nutritionally with diet and supplements etc. unanimous nix on steroids for Sootie.

We talked about biopsies etc. whether to watch and retest and with more specific tests more frequently or go straight to a vetty oncologist with iffy results....

I don't have answer re why the low numbers were so low. He does not think hemolysis a factor. Welcome suggestion on any/all of this and I'll be talking to the homeopathic vets today too. Also a friend has suggested her holistic vet (a goodly drive from here) but who is top notch on herbals etc and with coordinated care for one of her cats who was Dx'd a year ago with a rare cancer.

B/W doesn't always catch stuff early so I'm not ruling out anything. But if can proactively resolve inflammation and any concomitant condition possibilities without adversely affecting her now near nil need for insulin, that's a plus.

I'll be updating the SS lab tab later today re the above. We're not out of the woods yet, but at least at a starting point re IBD, and with 'what if's' circulating/lurking (anti-jinx and crossing pass). I have a lot to learn about both.

Welcome any/all suggestions and about nutritional/food/supplement support in treating Sootie's FD cool: squinty this am) and now IBD (with cautious eye about maybe maybe not c word anti-jinx please).

Sorry about length of this update...one of these days I'll get the l/l shorthand down pat! Thank you all and heaping on more healing vines for a smooth good day for all kitties and beans.

 

[carfurby (GA)]

It's good the vet doesn't believe it is cancer. There are other kitties here that have IBD. I'm sure you'll find some help with that. I hope the homeopathic vet can help. Sending prayers.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Neko has either severe IBD or small cell lymphoma and so does my civie Theo. We did not do the biopsy with Neko (gold standard on diagnosis), because she cannot have an operation due to her heart. You can also do an endoscopy for diagnosis, but it depends where the thickening is and whether the scope can reach there. You can't tell by looking at a single ultrasound whether it's IBD or lymphoma. We are treating worst case. There are overlaps in treatment. Neko wasn't showing a lot of signs, just the odd foamy or biley pukus and some constipation. Civie Theo (who got diagnosed before her), was puking hairballs or food almost every day.

Neko is on budesonide (compounded liquid fish flavor) and her symptoms basically stopped, except for the very occasional vomit now. It doesn't impact her blood sugar. Theo is on prednisilone and his symptoms stopped right away. With him, we tried metronazadile and Tylan first, but only with partial success. He is now on a restricted protein diet. I did a protein elimination diet and there are still quite a few he can eat. I also put him on a chicken and turkey cleanse (none for 6 months) and now he can eat them again. Which is good - cause otherwise he could only eat the most expensive proteins! For Neko, I feed her what she'll eat. She's complicated with a number of other things going on and so far, food doesn't seem to be much of a trigger.

A good website to check out is: http://www.ibdkitties.net/

 

[Marje and Gracie]

The red flag to me is the low platelets. Usually with clumping or hemolysis, you might see them low but this is pretty low. It’s interesting they were low a year ago but then came up.

Lymphoma “can” cause low platelets (thrombocytopenia) but so can other things. I mention lymphoma because you said she has severe IBD and it seems recent research is indicating it is not a matter of “if” IBD cats will get lymphoma but “when”. And while I have no idea whether she has lymphoma or not, I wouldn’t rule it out for reasons below.

I will pass along to you that the first cytology of Gracie’s biopsies showed only IBD, no lymphoma, but because the labs had been seeing similar cases but the cats not responding to IBD treatment, they were sending all biopsies to UC Davis for PCR testing and that’s when it came back as small cell lymphoma. Her labs, other than her liver enzymes which were up and down, were all normal. There was no indication in her superchem/cbc labs indicating any health issues other than, again, what we often saw with her liver enzymes even from kittenhood. So, without a biopsy, I don’t know how your vet could say he doesn’t think it’s neoplasia/cancer. Not that I”m recommending a biopsy; I wish I had gone the same route as Wendy, truth be told, foregone the endoscopy and treated for worse case.

One of the websites I like a lot for interpretation of labs is 2nd Chance and the vet there states: "Lymphoma/lymphosarcoma or lymphocytic leukemia cancers can make total lymphocytes counts go both up or down.”

The other excellent site for IBD info is RawFeedingForIBDCats.org. There is a plethora of info there even if you do not feed a raw diet.

Many vines and prayers for Sootie.

 

[HWright]

Neko has either severe IBD or small cell lymphoma and so does my civie Theo. We did not do the biopsy with Neko (gold standard on diagnosis), because she cannot have an operation due to her heart. You can also do an endoscopy for diagnosis, but it depends where the thickening is and whether the scope can reach there. You can't tell by looking at a single ultrasounds whether it's IBD or lymphoma. We are treating worst case. Therea are overlaps in treatment. Neko wasn't showing a lot of signs, just the odd foamy or biley pukus and some constipation. Civie Theo (who got diagnosed before her), was puking hairballs or food almost every day.

Neko is on budesonide (compounded liquid fish flavor) and her symptoms basically stopped, except for the very occasional vomit now. It doesn't impact her blood sugar. Theo is on prednisislone and his symptoms stopped right away. With him, we tried metronazadile and Tylan first, but only with partial success. He is now on a restricted protein diet. I did a protein elimination diet and there are still quite a few he can eat. I also put him on a chicken and turkey cleanse (none for 6 months) and now he can eat them again. Which is good - cause otherwise he could only eat the most expensive proteins! For Neko, I feed her what she'll eat. She's complicated with a number of other things going on and so far, food doesn't seem to be much of a trigger.

A good website to check out is: http://www.ibdkitties.net/

@Wendy&Neko, thank you!
I'm inclined not to do biopsies either for Sootie or any tests that would be invasive. I admit to the morbid concern that once a mass is opened in any way and is found to be malignant, Pandora's box is opened.
And, same as you chose for Neko, I opted for no invasive or sedation required tests for Bo who came to us with suspected nasal/sinus tumor and now a mass along his neck, same side as the problem nasal area, that appeared when he had a bout a pancreatitis a few months ago. With him at close to 24 yrs, with TIA's and ongoing heart, renal, and neurologically sourced mobility problems the primary concerns, the traditional tests and attendant stresses too much for him. He has the amazing ability to rebalance himself with time, tons of tlc, energy healings and remedies. They guide us if we listen.

I'll ask vetty about budesonide. Sootie has not vomited for a few days, maybe luck maybe slippery elm helps. But what triggers episodes is interesting and your obervations about protein sources (possible triggers) are vital questions to be answered with time patience and observation. ECID. And thank you for sending the Ibd kitties link. I've been reading it bits at a time. Been gradually transitioning all the cats from supplemented canned to EZC home cooked with the goal to gradually transition to supplemented raw or combo of raw and cooked. I haven't yet ventured into homemade novel proteins (have to take a big girl pill to get over my visceral response to the thought of handling, for example, a slaughtered bunny rabbit).

Interesting too that a single u/s can't always distinguish lymphoma from Ibd. And that you have taken the approach to treat with worst case in mind but that both DX's have overlapping treatments; which makes sense. I have a lot of homework to do and surely will have plenty of questions to sort out, sooner the better for Sootie (and entire household).

Sootie's bg this afternoon went from 100 in am to 91. Homeopathic pain remedy and ate a bit of wellness core 'straight up.'
Hoping all kitties and beans have better day today and very day ahead.

 

[HWright]

The red flag to me is the low platelets. Usually with clumping or hemolysis, you might see them low but this is pretty low. It’s interesting they were low a year ago but then came up.

Lymphoma “can” cause low platelets (thrombocytopenia) but so can other things. I mention lymphoma because you said she has severe IBD and it seems recent research is indicating it is not a matter of “if” IBD cats will get lymphoma but “when”. And while I have no idea whether she has lymphoma or not, I wouldn’t rule it out for reasons below.

I will pass along to you that the first cytology of Gracie’s biopsies showed only IBD, no lymphoma, but because the labs had been seeing similar cases but the cats not responding to IBD treatment, they were sending all biopsies to UC Davis for PCR testing and that’s when it came back as small cell lymphoma. Her labs, other than her liver enzymes which were up and down, were all normal. There was no indication in her superchem/cbc labs indicating any health issues other than, again, what we often saw with her liver enzymes even from kittenhood. So, without a biopsy, I don’t know how your vet could say he doesn’t think it’s neoplasia/cancer. Not that I”m recommending a biopsy; I wish I had gone the same route as Wendy, truth be told, foregone the endoscopy and treated for worse case.

One of the websites I like a lot for interpretation of labs is 2nd Chance and the vet there states: "Lymphoma/lymphosarcoma or lymphocytic leukemia cancers can make total lymphocytes counts go both up or down.”

The other excellent site for IBD info is RawFeedingForIBDCats.org. There is a plethora of info there even if you do not feed a raw diet.

Many vines and prayers for Sootie.

Thank you, Marje. I had just replied to Wendy when saw yours above. I hear you and agree with Wendy's approach.
Seems my next step in approaching this proactively is to find/see a vet/oncology/specialist who will have an open mind about treating Sootie, without all the invasive testing, if chemo the right equation along with nutritional and wholistic support.

Yes, my feeling and experience is that b/w doesn't always pick up on what's underneath its radar if one only looks at b/w alone or from one perspective only, if I'm making any sense here. I'll read the 2nd Chance source you referred to and home screen it too.

I mentioned to Wendy, referencing food, and as you know, have been gradually transitioning all the cats from canned w supplements to EZC home cooked, next goal being to transition to EZC raw or combo of cooked and raw. That next food transition I will begin sooner than planned, for Sootie and for the rest. None of us are getting any younger, and with 4 out of six being seniors plus, and 2 now nearing "middle age" (they being the most resistant), it's now an essential.

Thank you too for sharing Gracie's journey and your experience and observations about these issues. Not the easiest thing to do but please know how much your sharing about Gracie means and is appreciated here.

Healing vines for all and better days each day for all. With love and always thanks for prayers and vines always.

 

[HWright]

It's good the vet doesn't believe it is cancer. There are other kitties here that have IBD. I'm sure you'll find some help with that. I hope the homeopathic vet can help. Sending prayers.

Thank you Carla, one foot or paw in front of the other, right?! Vines for all...

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Thank you, Marje. I had just replied to Wendy when saw yours above. I hear you and agree with Wendy's approach.
Seems my next step in approaching this proactively is to find/see a vet/oncology/specialist who will have an open mind about treating Sootie, without all the invasive testing, if chemo the right equation along with nutritional and wholistic support.

Yes, my feeling and experience is that b/w doesn't always pick up on what's underneath its radar if one only looks at b/w alone or from one perspective only, if I'm making any sense here. I'll read the 2nd Chance source you referred to and home screen it too.

I mentioned to Wendy, referencing food, and as you know, have been gradually transitioning all the cats from canned w supplements to EZC home cooked, next goal being to transition to EZC raw or combo of cooked and raw. That next food transition I will begin sooner than planned, for Sootie and for the rest. None of us are getting any younger, and with 4 out of six being seniors plus, and 2 now nearing "middle age" (they being the most resistant), it's now an essential.

Thank you too for sharing Gracie's journey and your experience and observations about these issues. Not the easiest thing to do but please know how much your sharing about Gracie means and is appreciated here.

Healing vines for all and better days each day for all. With love and always thanks for prayers and vines always.

You're welcome. I know Gracie would want our experiences to help others.

One thing I learned about IBD is that food changes generally have to be made very, very slowly so I wouldn't get in a rush to move her from cooked with EZ Complete to raw. I've seen some say 4-6 months on the cooked diet before you try the raw but I am certainly not the expert on it by any means. I homecooked for Gracie but she never could to,erase the raw as much as she loved it. Also...you wouldn't use a whole rabbit with EZ Complete because it already has bone in it via eggshell calcium. I think it can be a challenge although not impossible to just get the rabbit meat without bone but the cost is probably much higher. The sources for it that I am aware of must find it cheaper to grind the entire rabbit or send it to you whole and you grind it. For this reason, when I want to rotate in rabbit, I just buy Primal frozen.

 

[HWright]

You're welcome. I know Gracie would want our experiences to help others.

One thing I learned about IBD is that food changes generally have to be made very, very slowly so I wouldn't get in a rush to move her from cooked with EZ Complete to raw. I've seen some say 4-6 months on the cooked diet before you try the raw but I am certainly not the expert on it by any means. I homecooked for Gracie but she never could to,erase the raw as much as she loved it. Also...you wouldn't use a whole rabbit with EZ Complete because it already has bone in it via eggshell calcium. I think it can be a challenge although not impossible to just get the rabbit meat without bone but the cost is probably much higher. The sources for it that I am aware of must find it cheaper to grind the entire rabbit or send it to you whole and you grind it. For this reason, when I want to rotate in rabbit, I just buy Primal frozen.

Marje, my emotional viscerals about rabbit are more about them being bunnies (and with wild hares feeling safe haven in our back yard, I'd bow in honor to them and their kind and ask for forgiveness). Why do I not feel quite the same about beef, turkey, etc? There's 'distance' but I still bow to them.

Yes , one of the many good things about EZC, at least in this household, is that it is for use with meat only, not bones etc.
Your suggestions and experience about transitioning, especially to raw, make sense and are very relevant to this household.

Also I meant to mention earlier that I wondered same about the changes in Sootie's platelet counts. Low at diabetes Dx, then much higher (and I think in normal range) twice and now back down to near what the platelet count was a year ago at FD Dx when her bg was 564 at Dx. Now she's in 's and 's . Vet's interpretation of the current platelet count and the other low numbers is that they'd be much higher if c-word (anti-jinx), hence to him those numbers unlikely to correlate with u/s neoplasia (anti-jinx) assessment. Again, anything/much can go under the b/w radar and, as you wrote and I find very interesting indeed, that the platelet #s don't necessarily have to be high to indicate ... Anti-jinx.

I'm wondering if, by coincidence or other, anything different in her diet between Dx and now accounted for improvement in some of those numbers . Initially, I didn't take very good notes about food or remedies, bc was pretty much the same every day. And started the EZC transition effort hmmmm...about 2-3 months ago...as I recall without checking my now much improved notes.