? 10/13 AMPS 87 Please help with supplements

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Elinor & Sibon

Elinor & Sibon

Member Since 2017
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Good night, everyone, what a day it was.
Sibon wouldn't eat his AM pre-shot meal and vomited clear liquid. He refused to eat for several hours, even avoiding his snacks. When he was finally hungry enough, he ate and then vomited all of it mid-eating. Luckily we already had a vet appointment scheduled for today at about +9. The vet gave him a shot of Cerenia and tested his urine. His urine came out clean, no glucose. She also sent fructosamine and fPLI tests, I will get the results in a few days.
She had a look at the last 3 weeks in my spreadsheet and was very pleased to see Sibon was somewhat regulated. She currently looks forward to stop giving insulin altogether but I told her I will not be comfortable with dropping from 0.5 to zero.

I gathered the courage to talk to her about a raw diet using FoodFurLife's EZcomplete powder. I also asked her about Aloe Vera juice and Slippery Elm Bark. She basically disregarded it all because "none of these methods are documented research apart from some testimonials online". I know where she's coming from, but she was willing to have her pet nutritionist (who also works for Hill's) have a look at FoodFurLife's website. I'm eager to try raw diet because of the high fat and Phosphorus in Fancy Feast and Sibon's fatty liver and possible CKD.

My questions to any of you are:
1. I know the move to raw diet should be gradual. Did any of your cats respond extremely badly to this?
2. Sibon only eats chicken based fancy feast at the moment. Does this mean I should only try chicken first?
3. Is raw meat recommended over cooked meat?
4. Is it of any use to give him only Aloe Vera juice without SEB? Is one more preferred than the other? I'm trying not to buy everything at once at the moment...

I'm tagging @LizzieInTexas , @Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey and @Bobbie And Bubba if that's OK because you introduced me to all of these.
 
Here is the Food Fur Life "How to" list. It includes raw vs. cooked and transitioning tips.
http://www.foodfurlife.com/how-to--fur-cats.html
http://www.foodfurlife.com/raw-or-cooked-which-should-i-feed-and-why.html

When I fed raw (Primal Frozen), I didn't know any better or know to transition so I just started plunking down the raw and Gizmo started eating it (and loved it) and had no issues.

SEB can be mixed with hot water and made into a slurry and given without aloe vera (or added) and no reason you can't just add the aloe alone.

Here is the aloe
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B00014EB6O/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20

Here is the SEB
https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000UE25XQ/?tag=felinediabetesfdmb-20
 
You might like to look through this link I started some time ago when I was helping someone transition from canned to raw. My cat Sheba also had early CRD so the diet is suitable for cats with kidney issues.
I was not able to get ready made up supplements here in Australia and had to use individual ones to make up a suitable mix. If you are able to get the supplements ready made up in your country, it makes it all much easier.
http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/home-prepared-diet-of-crd-cats.150441/
 
Hi Elinor, I will try and address some of your questions that I have some answers too.

1. When I transitioned my two cats, Bubba and his brother, Forrest, to raw, they were both indoor /outdoor cats and used to hunting thus eating raw on occasion. So, I could give them more raw at one time than say an indoor cat not used to eating raw. It would be best if you followed the guidelines that Lizzie in Texas linked for you on how to transition. That will give you the best possible outcome for Sibon excepting something different.

2. Chicken is one of the best proteins to start with. Then eventually you will try another one until you have 3 proteins in rotation. That is what is recommended.

3. I think raw is best but for some reason Sibon will not eat raw, then your home cooked food would be second best and superior to any commercial canned food in my opinion. You can control ingredients, sodium, fat etc.

4. I am currently doing Aloe Vera Juice with SEB. At first, I was only giving the AVJ 1/2 tbsp. twice a day and then Bubba was having some diarrhea/throw ups and then I decided to give him daily SEB to help with inflammation. According to Carolina at FoodFurLife ( she spent over 30 minutes on the phone with me to help trouble shoot some of Bubba's issues which is probably IBS) she said to give the AVJ and SEB together for any nausea. She RX 1/2 tsp of AVJ mixed with 1/4 tsp on SEB and give 30 minutes before a meal for nausea. Now, since his symptoms are gone, I give 1/2 tbsp. twice a day in his meals and in two different meal I put 1/4 tsp of SEB mixed in. So far, he's been really good gut wise.

I hope this helps and since we say Every Cat is Different ( ECID) you might have to experiment some. Best of luck and if I can help again, let me know.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
2. Chicken is one of the best proteins to start with. Then eventually you will try another one until you have 3 proteins in rotation. That is what is recommended.
Click to expand...
What does that mean, 3 proteins in rotation? Sibon used to vomit all the time when eating fish-based Fancy Feast if that matters.

Bobbie And Bubba said:
She RX 1/2 tsp of AVJ mixed with 1/4 tsp on SEB and give 30 minutes before a meal for nausea.
Click to expand...
How did you give this to Bubba before his meal? Feed using a syringe?
 
Neko took two days to transition to raw. Would have done it faster if I let her. ECID on transition times. Chicken is a good meat to start for raw food. Fish is a common allergen, stay away from it.
 
Thanks for all of your replies.
I've gone through the FoodFurLife website again, and in one page it says:
"Do not leave any uneaten food out for longer than 30 minutes and dispose of unconsumed meal portions."
I currently freeze bits of Fancy Feast in an ice tray and leave 2-4 of them for Sibon while I'm away at work during the day. I usually leave the house at 09:00am and return at 06:30pm. His shot time is somewhere around 07:30am/pm.
So I understand this is not safe pratice while using frozen raw meat?
What should I do in this case?
 
I used an automatic feeder, the Petsafe 5. There is a spot under the. Feeder tray for a small gel pack. With the gel pack in place, the meat would stay cool and safe for several hours. Another option is to put an ice cube on top. It will keep the meal cool and add water as it melts.
 
Elinor & Sibon said:
3 proteins in rotation
Click to expand...


3 different proteins, I used chicken, ( start with that one ) and then I added turkey then eventually pork. So, those are the 3 I am rotating, AM meal might be 1 oz of turkey, 10 AM meal is 1 oz of chicken, then the 2 PM meal is 1 oz of pork then I start the rotation over again.

Elinor & Sibon said:
How did you give this to Bubba before his meal? Feed using a syringe?
Click to expand...

I syringed it. It was recommended to mix it and it will get thick and gummy and then roll it into a ball and place it on the roof of the kitties mouth and let them swallow it down. That did not go over real big with Bubba at all; I could have been fingerless right now.......so, I mix a new batch and before it got too thick, placed it in a syringe and got it into him that way.
 
ETA: perhaps an ostrich?
I knew several places that supplied ostrich egg when I was living over there- maybe they do the meat, too?
I think @Wendy&Neko once posted about exotic meat butcher near her and that an ostrich meat was available as well. Am I correct, Wendy? Can Elinor shop for an ostrich meat as a protein option for her kitty?
 
I used chicken, turkey, kangaroo, lamb, venison, elk and buffalo. Not all at once of course. I have seen ostrich, quail, duck, water buffalo, camel, llama as either premanufactured raw or ground raw you could add supplements to. Oh, and beef too, though it's an allergen for some.
 
Although pork isn't kosher among the religious community, it is available for sale in Israel and pigs is the #1 most slaughtered animal here o_O
I think rabbit is available too. I'm not too knowledgeable since I never handled or cooked any meat before my veganism, I'll pay a visit to the local butchers.
I looked through Dr. Lisa's website and she recommends baking the meat so it could last longer outside when feeding and this way the meat doesn't lose its nutrients.
I do hope to leave some outside as ice cubes since I'm gone for so long during the day. I genuinely hope Sibon will get to it in time...

Bobbie And Bubba said:
Now, since his symptoms are gone, I give 1/2 tbsp. twice a day in his meals and in two different meal I put 1/4 tsp of SEB mixed in. So far, he's been really good gut wise.
Click to expand...
Do you know if there's ever a time to wean them off SEB/AVJ?
 
One important word of caution about Aloe Vera -- please be very sure you are only using the gel from the plant. If the brand you're getting isn't gel only, it is toxic for cats.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
One important word of caution about Aloe Vera -- please be very sure you are only using the gel from the plant. If the brand you're getting isn't gel only, it is toxic for cats.
Click to expand...
It's not the gel, it's the juice and it's very safe for cats and dogs. Note, you want to use George's brand because it is fractionally distilled which takes all the bitter out as well as the latex which can cause diarrhea.
 
Elinor & Sibon said:
I heard George's is the best choice, I'm planning on ordering that one from iHerb.
Click to expand...
Yes, George's is the best. As far as weaning them off, I am going to continue with the AVJ indefinitely and I started back a maintenance dose of the SEB on 10/6 ( 1/8 tsp twice a day) and as per @Beth 73 her holistic vet told this her for kitties with IBS issues. I think it is helping a lot. For instance, when Bubba is constipated or skips a day to poop his numbers used to shoot upwards. I don't see that happening like yesterday for instance. I think it could be because the SEB helps with inflammation and that could be keeping him more level. Just my guess. But, with the SEB, if Sibon is on any medications, you want to give the SEB an hour before or after not with the meds as the SEB can interfere with absorption of some meds.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
PS : Also, I am going to continue with the SEB indefinitely too as I think it's helping.
Click to expand...
I use Marshmallow root (vs. SEB - similar product but better results with Gizmo). I too do daily maintenance and will continue. I do 1/8 teaspoon (1/2 capsule) MMR with 2 tablespoons (appx) HOT water and mix until thickened and then add 1 1/2 teaspoon aloe vera juice, mix well again and microwave for 10 seconds to help thicken. Gimzo gets this 2x/day at AM/PM PS meal.

You can discontinue at any time if you feel it necessary. Bobbie and I both are using the maintenance dosage for stomach acid, upset tummy (vomit in Bubba) and constipation issues. Bobbie uses SEB - I use MMR. I think we prepare and "serve" very similar.

If you want to read up on SEB (foot noted MMR) - here:
http://felinecrf.org/holistic_treatments.htm#slippery_elm_bark

At the end of this it is noted
I am occasionally asked about marshmallow root. This shares some similarities with slippery elm bark and some people use it instead of slippery elm bark, but slippery elm bark is used most often on the CKD support groups, so I am more familiar with it.
Click to expand...
 
One last question please because I feel like I'm drowning in information:
I just read that you should also give your cat probiotics?
Is this in addition to the EZcomplete?
 
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