10/12 Apollo PMBG 101

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John & Apollo

John & Apollo

Member Since 2011
Apollo's Condo

Good morning. Just posted Apollo's AMPS 175. He is eating a little better, but still not enough food in my opinion. I am going to see if I can get him to eat a little more so I can feel comfortable giving him his shot.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175

I hope he eats a little more, so he can get his shot.
Sometimes, when J.D. doesn't finish his food and goes to lay down, I take his food dish over to him and put it down in front of him and he will eat the rest of it while I am standing over him. I don't know if that would work for Apollo.
Also, J.D. didn't finish all his breffis this morning, and I knew what he wanted as he came towards me. I got out the FortiFlora and sprinkled it on top of his food, and then he finished his breffis. Have you tried a bit of FortiFlora as an appetite enhancer? I'm sure you've tried just about everything. I wish you good luck this morning.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175

Ok, he ate a bit more (still not enough), but enough for me to be ok with giving him his shot.

Dyana said:
Sometimes, when J.D. doesn't finish his food and goes to lay down, I take his food dish over to him and put it down in front of him and he will eat the rest of it while I am standing over him.
Click to expand...

Dyana said:
I got out the FortiFlora and sprinkled it on top of his food, and then he finished his breffis. Have you tried a bit of FortiFlora as an appetite enhancer? I'm sure you've tried just about everything. I wish you good luck this morning.
Click to expand...

Yep I have tried both ways. He does eat more when I am sitting there next to him. It's like i have to "remind" him to eat. Weird. My cat just won't eat a good amount in 1 sitting. Eats a little, lays down, comes back eats a little more. I am fine with that, but I'm concerned he just isn't eating enough food throughout the day to maintain his weight.

I have been trying the Fortiflora and it helps somewhat, but nothing dramatic. Same with Purebites dust on top he comes over eats a bit off the surface and then is done. His tongue doesn't even go down to bottom of the plate usually. Just skims across the top surface of the food. I don't know. I think he might have a bad tooth as he turns his head to the side a lot while eating. I told the vet yesterday and she looked as best as she could. She said it is possible a tooth could be bothering him, but now that he is eating wet food that shouldn't slow down his food intake that much.

I think I am going to try some of the suggestions julie made yesterday and see if any of those work.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175

I'm glad Apollo is feeling a little better. My 16 year old civvie, Mario, absolutely requires my company while he's dining. And, he's a nibbler...a few bites now, a few bites later. He and I spend a lot of time "bonding" over food. Like you, I worry that he's getting enough, so I can never ignore his "requests" for a snack. Ah, the things we do!

Good luck with getting him more interested!
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175

Apollo looks great today, sorry about him not eating much. When i switched Leo from dry to wet it seemed to me like he ate alot less....and still does, but he nonetheless he still weighs 18lbs :shock:

I have to say i was reading Apollo's condo yesterday while stuffing my face at supper, good thing i don't have a weak stomach!!!! I busted out laughing at poor Apollo's "bubble bath" and food went flying everywhere!! :lol: :lol: I hope he's recovered nicely from yesterdays shennanigans, and don't worry Apollo, s#@t happens :lol: :lol:
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130

Apollo's AMPS +2 is 130. Looks like possibly more fun in store for today. We will see.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130

John,

Do you separate your cats for feeding because of Apollo's special needs? If so, is it possible he is a social eater and misses his buddies at meal time?
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130

Linda for Weezer said:
John,

Do you separate your cats for feeding because of Apollo's special needs? If so, is it possible he is a social eater and misses his buddies at meal time?
Click to expand...

Yes, I do separate to keep an eye on how much he is (or isn't) eating, plus our other 2 cats will eat his share if I let them. The way we do it now is he gets about an hour to eat separated and then I let him out and the other cats come in and finish off his plate. Then as Apollo leaves the room he sometimes eats a little of what's left on their plates. Funny, huh?

Up until 3 weeks ago when I switched him over to wet food Apollo grazed and ate dry food his whole life. I think that's the biggest adjustment for him. I even tried to limit the amount of food out for grazing hoping to increase his appetite for the main AM and PM feedings, but it didn't work. My other 2 cats lick their plates clean during feedings and Apollo makes a small dent in his and then picks at it throughout the day. I just keep hoping I can find the right food or flavor that will unleash his appetite (like when he eats the purebite treats). Maybe he just won't ever eat like that.

Question: I have tried mostly chicken and turkey based food with him. Now I know he loves chicken (Purebites). Any chance he just isn't a big fan? Anyone have better luck with beef or tuna or something else? I was a little gun shy on the beef after he threw up the Merrick Cowboy Cookout which is beef based. He did eat a lot of it before throwing up though.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69

Apollo's AMPS +3 is 69. Another big drop. Got a little worried, so I gave him about a teaspoon full of HC gravy.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69

My DH has warned me about trying to practice cat psychology, but I just can't help myself. If the other cats' food is something Apollo is permitted to eat, maybe you could try letting them eat all together while you are watching, as an experiment to see if the company improves his appetite.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69

Linda for Weezer said:
My DH has warned me about trying to practice cat psychology, but I just can't help myself. If the other cats' food is something Apollo is permitted to eat, maybe you could try letting them eat all together while you are watching, as an experiment to see if the company improves his appetite.
Click to expand...

It's worth a try. I'm getting desperate at this point.

Do any of your cats just lick the surface of the food and not "dive in"? My other 2 open their mouth and grab a mouthful of food with each attempt. Apollo just licks mostly.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69

Looks like you have a lot going on with Apollo- poor guy yesterday though! I hope that he starts to eat better... Smokey is a grazer as well- eats a few bites, goes and sits by the window... 15 min later eats some more... etc...
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69

I just got a call this morning from my Mom that her cat Oliver passed away this morning. He had been very sick the last few days and she took him in to be seen at the vet yesterday. She said last night he was crying on and off and having trouble breathing. This morning she woke up and found him. I am heartbroken for her. :sad:
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69

I am so sorry about Oliver. Please give my condolences to your mom. :sad:

Zener sometimes just licks off the fortiflora and he does not eat with a lot of gusto. We weigh his food to monitor how much he eats and we do follow him around with his bowl if he hasn't eaten enough. In the past, we've tried cypro (an appetite stimulant, I don't know the whole name, we gave him 1/2 pill) which seemed to work for about a day. Recently, we've tried pepcid ac after Anne noticed that he was burping a lot. We thought maybe his tummy was upset. The pepcid does seem to help in that he stops eating because he's had enough to eat. Before it was like he wanted to eat but it just wasn't appealing. Fortiflora also helps with digestion so it's good for him.

Good luck figuring out what works for Apollo. It's very frustrating when they don't eat.
Liz
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69, +4 54

Apollo's AMPS +4 is 54. Gave him another teaspoon of HC gravy.

Thanks for the kind words Anne. My mom lost her doggie last year and now her cat. I just feel for her.

Can I ask how much he is eating over the course of a day?
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69, +4 54, +4.5 49

Apollo's AMPS +4.5 is 49. Another reduction earned. Gave him another teaspoon of HC gravy but added a small drop of karo. Hopefully he comes up a bit and surfs for next few hours.

Can I just feed Apollo Purebites on a plate for dinner? Much easier! :lol:
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69

John & Apollo said:
Linda for Weezer said:
My DH has warned me about trying to practice cat psychology, but I just can't help myself. If the other cats' food is something Apollo is permitted to eat, maybe you could try letting them eat all together while you are watching, as an experiment to see if the company improves his appetite.
Click to expand...

It's worth a try. I'm getting desperate at this point.

Do any of your cats just lick the surface of the food and not "dive in"? My other 2 open their mouth and grab a mouthful of food with each attempt. Apollo just licks mostly.
Click to expand...

This may sound really strange but I learned that KT didn't know HOW to eat soft food. He's been a kibble cat most of his life - he never opened his mouth and ate any soft, just licked it. It wasn't until I had to change him to soft completely and put a few kibble bites on top did he figure it out. I just ASSUMED that all cats knew how to 'eat'. He now opens his mouth and takes bites - finishes off a 3oz FFeast in just a few minutes.

Just thought I'd throw that out here......

Give your mom extra hugs from our gang - it's so hard to lose our babies.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69, +4 54, +4.5 49

Lyresa, my mom's cat looked a lot like KT. Big fluffy orange and white cat. The hardest part is she doesn't have any other animals in the house now. I hope she considers getting another one.

Thanks for the suggestion on teaching him how to eat properly. :smile:
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69, +4 54, +4.5 49, +5

Apollo's AMPS +5 is 93. Woops looks like I could have probably done without the karo on the last go around. Oh well whenever I see numbers under 50 I admit I freak a little.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69, +4 54, +4.5 49, +5

I'm so sorry about Oliver...my deepest condolences to your mom. Hopefully she'll take in another critter when her heart is ready.

Apollo is looking awesome today!!
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +2 130, +3 69, +4 54, +4.5 49, +5

Please send my condolences to your mom.

Another consideration is that as a cat is better regulated, their appetite will decrease. At the onset of diabetes, cats are ravenous because the nutrients from what their eating aren't getting into the cell. Rather, the glucose from the metabolism of their food is floating around in the blood. Once numbers are in the normal range, the glucose is now getting into the cells and appetite returns to a more normal level. If you are gauging Apollo's appetite based on what it was before you learned about his FD, you're comparing apples and oranges.

What is Apollo's ideal weight and how many calories is he consuming? This is a formula from Dr. Lisa's website for calculating calories per day:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70​
She notes that this is a generous calculation. If Apollo is getting somewhere in this ballpark, he's getting enough food.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +4 54, +4.5 49, +5 93, +7 86

Apollo's AMPS +7 is 86.

Sienne and Gabby said:
Another consideration is that as a cat is better regulated, their appetite will decrease. At the onset of diabetes, cats are ravenous because the nutrients from what their eating aren't getting into the cell. Rather, the glucose from the metabolism of their food is floating around in the blood. Once numbers are in the normal range, the glucose is now getting into the cells and appetite returns to a more normal level. If you are gauging Apollo's appetite based on what it was before you learned about his FD, you're comparing apples and oranges.

What is Apollo's ideal weight and how many calories is he consuming? This is a formula from Dr. Lisa's website for calculating calories per day:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X optimal lean body weight in pounds] + 70​
She notes that this is a generous calculation. If Apollo is getting somewhere in this ballpark, he's getting enough food.
Click to expand...

Well admittedly I never paid much attention to how much he was eating when on dry food. He mostly ate during the night and grazed all day long. We have 2 other cats that were doing the same. When we started on the wet food he ate a pretty good amount roughly two 3oz cans a day. But as each day has gone by the amount he is eating is less and less. Now he eats maybe one 3oz can a day if that. Based on the formula above:

Required calories per day = [13.6 X 12 lbs] + 70 = 233 calories a day.

We have mostly been giving FF chicken classic, so lets use that as an example. Since he is only eating one 3oz can that's only 92.7 calories a day. Not nearly enough to maintain his weight. The only time I have seen him eat ravenously is when he has hypo symptoms. Otherwise he just doesn't seem all that interested in eating. Also like I said above I watch him eat and he just skims the surface of the food and doesn't "dig in" or push his tongue down to the bottom of the plate to get food into his mouth.

Could a painful tooth be enough to keep him from eating enough? Then again 3 weeks ago when we started on all wet food he was eating two 3oz cans just fine. I wouldn't think the tooth would affect him that much.

I realize he will eat less as his blood sugar is being controlled, but I don't think he is eating enough at this point. Barely one 3oz can a day is not enough.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +4 54, +4.5 49, +5 93, +7 86

oh, John...deepest sympathy to your mother on her loss of Oliver...

i've missed some posts, so don't know if this is repetitious, but it's worked wonders for Binks...

His "canned food" feeding is actually soup...
I add enough water to it that it is a very runny consistency, and oddly...he LOVES it that way.
never would have guessed it, but there you are.
and now the two civies want theirs that way too...
I think it's more of a "we want you to take time & trouble over OUR meal, too" thing with them :-D

gorgeous numbers, Apollo!

celi & binks
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +4.5 49, +5 93, +7 86, +9 62

Apollo's AMPS +9 is 62. Anyone have any idea why the particular dip at +9? Is it because the HC and karo from earlier has worn off?
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +4 54, +4.5 49, +5 93, +7 86

mybuddybinks said:
oh, John...deepest sympathy to your mother on her loss of Oliver...

i've missed some posts, so don't know if this is repetitious, but it's worked wonders for Binks...

His "canned food" feeding is actually soup...
I add enough water to it that it is a very runny consistency, and oddly...he LOVES it that way.
never would have guessed it, but there you are.
and now the two civies want theirs that way too...
I think it's more of a "we want you to take time & trouble over OUR meal, too" thing with them :-D

gorgeous numbers, Apollo!

celi & binks
Click to expand...

I'll give it a try. I think I am also going to try a beef variety of FF and see how that goes too.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +4.5 49, +5 93, +7 86, +9 62

One can isn't enough.

And yes, a bad tooth could be effecting Apollo's eating. Realistically, if you had a toothache, would you want to eat?
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +4.5 49, +5 93, +7 86, +9 62

Condolences to your mom, John.

Morgaine has always been a very good eater and she basically lives for her food. When FF changed something last year she stopped eating it completely. I tried about 40 different brands/flavors to get her to eat and finally settled on Pro Plan Chicken and Liver. Sometimes you just have to experiment with what you can, watching carbs of course. I went to Petsmart and bought a couple of cans of all the low carb foods I thought she might eat. They are willing to take back unopened cans if the cat refuses them. It freaked me out that I couldn't find anything she liked and then there it was. It was also a frustrating process but eating enough was the goal and so I persisted.

At one point, because she liked fish, I gave her fish and some low carb dry food since she had to eat something. My point in all of this is that maybe Apollo doesn't like the foods you are feeding and a different brand/flavor may appeal to him more.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +4.5 49, +5 93, +7 86, +9 62

Sienne and Gabby said:
One can isn't enough.

And yes, a bad tooth could be effecting Apollo's eating. Realistically, if you had a toothache, would you want to eat?
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Ok. I just don't know how to determine if it is a bad tooth or not. The vet said after a quick in inspection she didn't see anything out of the ordinary. Of course Apollo wasn't be very cooperative at the time. One thing is for sure is that when he eats he quickly turns his head to the side after a bite or two. Like a reaction. The strange thing though is 3 weeks ago he was eating 2 cans a day. Not sure the tooth (if that is what the issue is) could get him to go from 2 cans down to 1 in 3 weeks time. Anyone else have any idea why he might be jerking his head to the side like that as he eats? Obviously in order to thoroughly check his teeth and gums they would have to sedate him. She said he might have an infection where the top canine is rubbing down onto the gum/lips. I do see what looks like a irritated gum/lip/bump where tooth meets there, but it's so hard to tell exactly. Also when I "pill him" or when he chews I often hear what sounds like bone/teeth rubbing together or something. Yes, I need to get out more. ;-)
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo AMPS 175, +4.5 49, +5 93, +7 86, +9 62

skybar22 said:
Condolences to your mom, John.

Morgaine has always been a very good eater and she basically lives for her food. When FF changed something last year she stopped eating it completely. I tried about 40 different brands/flavors to get her to eat and finally settled on Pro Plan Chicken and Liver. Sometimes you just have to experiment with what you can, watching carbs of course. I went to Petsmart and bought a couple of cans of all the low carb foods I thought she might eat. They are willing to take back unopened cans if the cat refuses them. It freaked me out that I couldn't find anything she liked and then there it was. It was also a frustrating process but eating enough was the goal and so I persisted.

At one point, because she liked fish, I gave her fish and some low carb dry food since she had to eat something. My point in all of this is that maybe Apollo doesn't like the foods you are feeding and a different brand/flavor may appeal to him more.
Click to expand...

I honestly think you are right. I just need to find the right food. I've been through about 10 so far (mostly chicken or turkey based). I will get him some beef and seafood ones to try. My cat eats better then I do I swear. :lol:
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo PMBG 101, help

Apollo's PMBG is 101. Looking for a little advice if I should give him a shot tonight or not. He still isn't eating much (maybe one 3oz can a day) and earned a reduction with the shot from this AM. I am leaning towards skipping until we can get his food intake back on track.

We tried FF Savory Salmon Feast for PM and he did eat more then he did this morning, but still not enough. He ate maybe 1/3 of a 3oz can.

Maybe I should just schedule a dental exam for him to make sure nothing is wrong there?
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo PMBG 101, help

i'm not sure about the shot if you feel like he's not eating. hopefully sienne or someone with more experience can comment on it.

however, i would say you've described a kitty who has an owie in his mouth. punkin had an infection after he had dental work done in march and i could tell because he began to favor that side. he also did a funny "air-by" washing of his face on that side. on one side he did the usual, lick the paw, wash the face. on the other side he licked the paw and then "waved" the paw by that side of his face.

he also moved his face away when i scritched his jaw. i would make an appt for a dental asap. from my experience, you want a vet who has a dental x-ray machine and will make certain they get out the roots. my vet doesn't have the equipment and punkin ended up with 40 days of antibiotics and a visit to a veterinary dentist before we were done with the fun.

and the food - we stick with ff chicken feast and beef feast as the mainstays. used to use the turkey & giblets a lot, but apparently it was reformulated and it's 7% carbs. i set aside that pile of cans and the savory salmon, which is also 7% now, i think. i've got cod & tuna for when i want him to have the smallest amount of carbs. you're supposed to limit fish in boy kitters so they don't have urinary tract problems. dr lisa says primarily stay with feathers (chicken and turkey) and let fish be treats. in nature, not many kitters take down cows, so i suppose that's completely unnatural, but punkin likes it and it doesn't raise his BG.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo PMBG 101, help

yikes, i see that you've skipped 3 of his last 4 shots. his shed is probably pretty depleted. are all the skips from you feeling not only the BG being less than 150 but because of his appetite being off?

fyi - anya weighs about 7 lbs and eats just less than 2 cans of FF per day, maybe 1.5 cans. punkin weighs almost 14 and eats 3 cans plus whatever anya leaves, so maybe 3.5 cans.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo PMBG 101, help

julie & punkin said:
yikes, i see that you've skipped 3 of his last 4 shots. his shed is probably pretty depleted. are all the skips from you feeling not only the BG being less than 150 but because of his appetite being off?

fyi - anya weighs about 7 lbs and eats just less than 2 cans of FF per day, maybe 1.5 cans. punkin weighs almost 14 and eats 3 cans plus whatever anya leaves, so maybe 3.5 cans.
Click to expand...

I skipped because he is not eating enough and had big time constipation yesterday. You can read all about it in yesterday's condo. One skip I was because I was not home for most of the day and didn't feel comfortable not being there to monitor him.

Apollo weighs 12 lbs so he should be eating at least 2-3 cans a day depending on the calorie count.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo PMBG 101, help

Sienne and Gabby said:
Can you stall to see if numbers are heading up. (Don't feed.)
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Already fed him see post above. We tried FF Savory Salmon Feast for PM and he did eat more then he did this morning, but still not enough. He ate maybe 1/3 of a 3oz can.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo PMBG 101, help

Thanks for the info julie. I am going to get his teeth/gums checked.

I have tried many foods and he just isn't eating as much as he should. It started out ok when we first switched him to wet. He was eating 2 cans or so of FF Chicken Classic and I thought we were on our way, but like I said before he has been eating less and less.
 
Re: 10/12 Apollo PMBG 101, help

oh no worries, i read about the "big time constipation" woes and exactly how they worked out yesterday! :lol: :lol: :lol:

usually when you get a number that's too low for you to comfortably shoot, you stall without feeding and wait 1/2 hour or so and retest. often their BG will rise enough in that half hour that you can shoot.

your next choices are to give a reduced dose or skip. stalling is the best if you can deal with being off schedule the next morning because it doesn't affect the shed as much.

what do you think about getting a dental in? i'm thinking it sounds like his mouth really hurts and that's why he's not eating.
 
Yeah I am going to get a dental exam done. I'm not sure if my vet has all the proper equipment though. I do know they have an x-ray machine, but will that work for a dental? I live in a pretty small town and options are rather limited.

Even with the skipped shots he still seems to be doing amazingly well with his numbers.
 
It's not the low number that is making me uncomfortable shooting him it's the lack of eating enough that worries me. If he is not eating enough things can become much more complicated shooting him under those conditions.
 
that's true - we need them to eat. his numbers have been pretty good and not as affected by the skipped shot as they might be.

glad you're going to get a dental done - my guess is that his appetite will improve if there's a tooth issue to be resolved. if there is any tooth inflammation or infection going on, his insulin needs may decrease immediately as the infection gets resolved. something to be aware of in advance so you're watching for it.

i'm in a town of 56,000ish and there are at least a couple of vets that have dental x-ray machines. doing it over again, i'd choose to go to one of them over my regular vet. just because we had SO many problems that went on literally for about 8 weeks. didn't get diagnosed for 2ish weeks til i noticed his discomfort, then an AB that didn't work, then one that made him vomit, then finally 40 days of clindamycin. had to give him fortiflora at the same time because it gave him diarrhea, but it cleared up the problem. also had the vet specialist visit - i haven't added up the cost (because i'd probably faint) but you can imagine it wasn't cheap. all because he didn't have a dental x-ray machine and likely left behind roots.
 
oh, regarding the regular x-ray machine - no, that won't work for a dental. it's a specific machine.

you could tell your vet you want it done by someone who has a dental x-ray machine and ask him to refer you. at this point, if he were my cat, i would think it's a bit urgent.
 
Thanks for all the helpful advice. A quick google search lead me to a vet in town with a dental x-ray machine and several good reviews. I am going to call tomorrow and try to get him in ASAP. Keep your fingers crossed he does ok and they find and fix whatever might be causing him issues.
 
Question: Is it possible that his diabetes could have been completely caused by him having a long-term dental infection or would the diabetes diagnosis be unrelated or only somewhat related? Could fixing a potential infection completely cure him of diabetes or no? Just curious.
 
my guess would be that clearing an infection could cause him to go off of insulin. he's gone down a lot in his dosage, but of course, if he's not eating much he wouldn't need as much insulin. if he does go off, you have to continue treating him as a diabetic cat who is simply diet-controlled. stay on the low-carb canned food. he should never go to dry food or high carb foods for the rest of his life - that's what i understand. there are cats that do go off when infections get treated; there are also cats that have dramatic insulin reductions when dentals get done.

you might want to go read Garland's condo - the last page there is some discussion of dentals and how they can affect BG.

i doubt that an infection would cause diabetes, but it could be that it raised his BG enough that his stressed pancreas couldn't handle it. cat pancreases can recover. any kind of stress on a cat - house remodeling (that's what triggered punkin's), new pet, illness, moving, a vet visit, can raise the BG.

if i were you, i would be hopeful, but there's no crystal ball. i'm just guessing and telling you what has happened to some other cats that i've seen since i got on FDMB in february.
 
John & Apollo said:
Question: Is it possible that his diabetes could have been completely caused by him having a long-term dental infection or would the diabetes diagnosis be unrelated or only somewhat related? Could fixing a potential infection completely cure him of diabetes or no? Just curious.
Click to expand...

check out BKs ss 05/29/2009 and after.
I'm a big fan of keeping teeth and gums healthy.
 
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