1/26 Pearl PMPS 290, +1 281, +2.5 183, +4 251

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Happy Tuesday all!

I'm happy to report Pearl didn't bounce up too badly at this morning's AMPS after her swim last night (and first time shooting GREEN). Looks like we are headed back to the lagoon a bit later on today. It's getting a little bit easier to stomach each time - still nerve wracking though.

Link to yesterday's post: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/1-25-pearl-pmps-87-1-84-2-99-3-120.242075/#post-2727150

 

[tiffmaxee]

First it gets easier. Next green gets contagious. I promise!

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

First it gets easier. Next green gets contagious. I promise!

I will take your word for it, Elise!

 

[tiffmaxee]

Forgot to say congrats on shooting green!

I will take your word for it, Elise!

It’s guaranteed.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Happy Tuesday all!

I'm happy to report Pearl didn't bounce up too badly at this morning's AMPS after her swim last night (and first time shooting GREEN). Looks like we are headed back to the lagoon a bit later on today. It's getting a little bit easier to stomach each time - still nerve wracking though.

Link to yesterday's post: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/1-25-pearl-pmps-87-1-84-2-99-3-120.242075/#post-2727150

Seems you actually know better how to deal with her green BGs at night and me suggesting the MC twice was too much for her. The MC at PMPS was fine but I wonder if the MC/LC mix you used before would have been better at +1? Lessons learned and you got a little more data on how carb sensitive Pearl might be.

As I mentioned, Gracie had these type of cycles and one thing I learned to do eventually was to test at about +9.75 and if she was headed down quickly due to bounce clearing and where I might suspect a lower PMPS, I’d feed her a LC snack and just be sure she was done by +10. What that is meant to do is slow the drops that you see with bounce-clearing cycles. I wouldn’t do it with any other cycle or if she’s not headed to a low green PMPS.

It might not work with Pearl or might not be necessary but it’s a tool in your toolbox.

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Seems you actually know better how to deal with her green BGs at night and me suggesting the MC twice was too much for her. The MC at PMPS was fine but I wonder if the MC/LC mix you used before would have been better at +1? Lessons learned and you got a little more data on how carb sensitive Pearl might be.

Hi I do think there is a lag on Pearl responding to the carbs right away, so tonight I will try the MC at PMPS (assuming we are green again - I think that is a likely assumption to make) and then try the LC/MC mix later on. I do also wonder if giving her too much MC at PMPS may have been the problem - I was so nervous and she was so hungry, I let her have 60g. Usually she only gets 20-30g of anything per mini meal. What do you think?

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

As I mentioned, Gracie had these type of cycles and one thing I learned to do eventually was to test at about +9.75 and if she was headed down quickly due to bounce clearing and where I might suspect a lower PMPS, I’d feed her a LC snack and just be sure she was done by +10. What that is meant to do is slow the drops that you see with bounce-clearing cycles. I wouldn’t do it with any other cycle or if she’s not headed to a low green PMPS.

It might not work with Pearl or might not be necessary but it’s a tool in your toolbox.

I love this idea and will implement it! Thank you! PS - what number is a low green PMPS that I should try to be steering away from with her small snack?

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Forgot to say congrats on shooting green!


It’s guaranteed.

Thanks much!! I was super shocked!

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Hi I do think there is a lag on Pearl responding to the carbs right away, so tonight I will try the MC at PMPS (assuming we are green again - I think that is a likely assumption to make) and then try the LC/MC mix later on. I do also wonder if giving her too much MC at PMPS may have been the problem - I was so nervous and she was so hungry, I let her have 60g. Usually she only gets 20-30g of anything per mini meal. What do you think?

Yes that could have also been the issue...a little too much MC. But you will figure it out. It’s so ECID. The first time a kitty goes into green especially when clearing a bounce, I’d rather be conservative and give a little bit too many carbs than have the kitty end up in the 40s and the CG freaked out

I love this idea and will implement it! Thank you! PS - what number is a low green PMPS that I should try to be steering away from with her small snack?

That actually depends on you and Pearl. When Gracie was on Lantus and clearing a bounce with a full head of steam, I didn’t want her giving me a 50 at PMPS that would be even lower by +2. You’ll have to play it by ear. If you see that on a bounce clearing cycle, she’s already in the low 70s or 60s by +9.75, and until you feel better about shooting 50s or you know Pearl is easy to bring up after shooting a 50 before she onsets, you might want to try it and see what it does. It might clip her duration more than you want. The eventual goal is to feel comfortable in shooting the 50s knowing she will come up enough after onset with her food so that you can take advantage of carryover and overlap. Does that make sense? Again, you might never need it with Pearl and it might not work for her.

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Yes that could have also been the issue...a little too much MC. But you will figure it out. It’s so ECID. The first time a kitty goes into green especially when clearing a bounce, I’d rather be conservative and give a little bit too many carbs than have the kitty end up in the 40s and the CG freaked out

You don't have to worry about me freaked out - I can handle it. I can separate my own emotions when I need to and focus on the business.The thing that I do freak out about inside is not being sure that Pearl will ever "peak" after insulin and food. I have a feeling she isn't the cat who will have spikes, so then what to do. That is my primary worry.

That actually depends on you and Pearl. When Gracie was on Lantus and clearing a bounce with a full head of steam, I didn’t want her giving me a 50 at PMPS that would be even lower by +2. You’ll have to play it by ear. If you see that on a bounce clearing cycle, she’s already in the low 70s or 60s by +9.75, and until you feel better about shooting 50s or you know Pearl is easy to bring up after shooting a 50 before she onsets, you might want to try it and see what it does. It might clip her duration more than you want. The eventual goal is to feel comfortable in shooting the 50s knowing she will come up enough after onset with her food so that you can take advantage of carryover and overlap. Does that make sense? Again, you might never need it with Pearl and it might not work for her.

Yes, this make sense (theoretically), and I appreciate having the knowledge, that is how I work best. Thank you! We will just have to see now how it all plays out

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Well she is 315 @ +11 so I don't see her late night swim happening. I was wrong.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Let’s just see. She’s been clearing bounces quickly and there’s always the old “high before the break”. But don’t tell her....shhhhhhh.

 

[JaxBenji]

The greens will come back BTW, I saw you fed wellness (I do too) - I'm not sure if you knew but they post their nutrition info on their website - if you click on your flavor and then go down to nutrient profiles, you'll see a PDF. The carb content for the Turkey and Duck is <1% per Wellness. Just sharing as I see you have it listed in your SS as 5%. Also, and perhaps more importantly, the venison does not appear to be MC (the as fed is 1% while dry matter is 4%). I'm guessing you used Lisa's food list - I use it too but since it's a little dated, I just try to bump it up against the manufacturer if they post info on their site and/or I use Marje's instructions here.

ETA - I meant to include the link to the Wellness site Just change the flavor and click the nutrient PDF - https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-cat-food/product-catalog/corer-pate-beef-venison-lamb

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

The greens will come back BTW, I saw you fed wellness (I do too) - I'm not sure if you knew but they post their nutrition info on their website - if you click on your flavor and then go down to nutrient profiles, you'll see a PDF. The carb content for the Turkey and Duck is <1% per Wellness. Just sharing as I see you have it listed in your SS as 5%. Also, and perhaps more importantly, the venison does not appear to be MC (the as fed is 1% while dry matter is 4%). I'm guessing you used Lisa's food list - I use it too but since it's a little dated, I just try to bump it up against the manufacturer if they post info on their site and/or I use Marje's instructions here.

Oh my goodness, the Venison isn't MC?! Is it HC, Susanne?!! Eeep! And yes I used Lisa's food list - I had NO CLUE the Turkey and Duck is SO LOW. Is it too low?? No wonder it doesn't slow down her dives, lol!! What Wellness flavor do you feed? Pearl LOVES it, esp the Venison

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Let’s just see. She’s been clearing bounces quickly and there’s always the old “high before the break”. But don’t tell her....shhhhhhh.

Well...this is true. She is a surprising girl. I will probably test her at +1 to check on any dives. And, if I am understanding what Susanne is saying...Marje my LC is uber-LC, and my MC isn't MC at all but also perhaps UBER-LC. Now I am freaking out a tad. I have to find a MC food. I have a HC (Royal Canin PD - she loves it, duck and potato).

 

[JaxBenji]

Oh my goodness, the Venison isn't MC?! Is it HC, Susanne?!! Eeep! And yes I used Lisa's food list - I had NO CLUE the Turkey and Duck is SO LOW. Is it too low?? No wonder it doesn't slow down her dives, lol!! What Wellness flavor do you feed? Pearl LOVES it, esp the Venison

Jax eats Wellness Complete Chicken Pate and the Turkey Pate - they are both super low carb too (<1%). He seems to do just fine on them. ECID but I have read on here a lot of kitties do better with a few more carbs on board. It's more of a food experiment thing. I should also add I was feeding Jax FF Classic Pates but switched because my civvie (his brother) wouldn't touch them and I really wanted a food I could feed to both of them.

Also, I feed FF Gravy Lovers for MC (Turkey or Chicken are 15%) and FF Gravy Lovers Beef for high carb (20%)...now for those I do use Lisa's Just track what you feed and you'll figure out if it's too much carb or too little.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

The greens will come back BTW, I saw you fed wellness (I do too) - I'm not sure if you knew but they post their nutrition info on their website - if you click on your flavor and then go down to nutrient profiles, you'll see a PDF. The carb content for the Turkey and Duck is <1% per Wellness. Just sharing as I see you have it listed in your SS as 5%. Also, and perhaps more importantly, the venison does not appear to be MC (the as fed is 1% while dry matter is 4%). I'm guessing you used Lisa's food list - I use it too but since it's a little dated, I just try to bump it up against the manufacturer if they post info on their site and/or I use Marje's instructions here.

ETA - I meant to include the link to the Wellness site Just change the flavor and click the nutrient PDF - https://www.wellnesspetfood.com/natural-cat-food/product-catalog/corer-pate-beef-venison-lamb

You’re missing one step Once you get the As-feds or DMB, there’s an additional step. I’ll do the calculations in just a bit.

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

You’re missing one step Once you get the As-feds or DMB, there’s an additional step. I’ll do the calculations in just a bit.

Ok, I'm going to practice calculations here (for the first time). I used the numbers off the can. Does this look right? And if it DOES look right, since her main food is 2.78% carbs can her MC be the 7.96% carbs since there is a big difference, or no does this not count?

Wellness Beef, Venison, and Lamb
Protein 12.0
Fat 6.5
Fiber 1.0
Moisture 78.0
Taurine 0.10
total 97.6
Carbs estimate 2.4

Protein 12.0 x 3.5 = 42
Carbs 2.4 x 3.5 = 8.4
Fat 6.5 x 8.5 = 55.25
total calories = 105.65

Protein 42/105.65 = 39.8%
Carbs 8.4/105.65 = 7.96%
Fat 55.25/105.65 = 52.3%

Wellness Turkey and Duck
Protein 12.0
Fat 8.0
Fiber 1.0
Moisture 78.0
Taurine 0.10
total 99.1
Carbs estimate 0.9

Protein 12.0 x 3.5 = 42
Carbs 0.9 x 3.5 = 3.15
Fat 8.0 x 8.5 = 68
total calories = 113.15

Protein 42/113.15 = 37.12%
Carbs 3.15/113.15 = 2.78%
Fat 68/113.15 = 60.1%

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Jax eats Wellness Complete Chicken Pate and the Turkey Pate - they are both super low carb too (<1%). He seems to do just fine on them. ECID but I have read on here a lot of kitties do better with a few more carbs on board. It's more of a food experiment thing. I should also add I was feeding Jax FF Classic Pates but switched because my civvie (his brother) wouldn't touch them and I really wanted a food I could feed to both of them.

Also, I feed FF Gravy Lovers for MC (Turkey or Chicken are 15%) and FF Gravy Lovers Beef for high carb (20%)...now for those I do use Lisa's Just track what you feed and you'll figure out if it's too much carb or too little.

It is such a difficult thing for me to find a MC food. Pearl is so PICKY. She doesn't eat the normal things cats like (gravy) and she has a lot of dietary issues with the IBD. She likes the Royal Canin PD which I think is 22%. Do you think I can make my own MC by adding a teeny bit of the HC to her uber LC??? And thanks so much for bringing this to my attention!!!

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Ok, I'm going to practice calculations here (for the first time). I used the numbers off the can. Does this look right? And if it DOES look right, since her main food is 2.78% carbs can her MC be the 7.96% carbs since there is a big difference, or no does this not count?

Wellness Beef, Venison, and Lamb
Protein 12.0
Fat 6.5
Fiber 1.0
Moisture 78.0
Taurine 0.10
total 97.6
Carbs estimate 2.4

Protein 12.0 x 3.5 = 42
Carbs 2.4 x 3.5 = 8.4
Fat 6.5 x 8.5 = 55.25
total calories = 105.65

Protein 42/105.65 = 39.8%
Carbs 8.4/105.65 = 7.96%
Fat 55.25/105.65 = 52.3%

Wellness Turkey and Duck
Protein 12.0
Fat 8.0
Fiber 1.0
Moisture 78.0
Taurine 0.10
total 99.1
Carbs estimate 0.9

Protein 12.0 x 3.5 = 42
Carbs 0.9 x 3.5 = 3.15
Fat 8.0 x 8.5 = 68
total calories = 113.15

Protein 42/113.15 = 37.12%
Carbs 3.15/113.15 = 2.78%
Fat 68/113.15 = 60.1%

You can’t use the numbers off the can. Those are guaranteed analysis. You have to use the as-feds or DMB on the pdf info sheets Susanne linked or if the food you are feeding is a different brand and those typical nutrient analyses are not on their website, you have to call for the as-feds or DMB.

 

[JaxBenji]

You’re missing one step Once you get the As-feds or DMB, there’s an additional step. I’ll do the calculations in just a bit.

Got it. I have I just ran them through so maybe you can be my sanity check

Venison 3% and Duck 0.08% (I got the same values using as-fed and dmb).

@Margaret (and Pearl) sorry for not totally understanding the percent of total cals (which is Marje's point). And FWIW I see different values than what you have posted above...ohh I see you were using GA values. Read Marje's post when you can (the one I linked) and it has an excellent article on how GA values aren't awesome

Edited to correct my typo of 0.8% (should be 0.08% )

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

You can’t use the numbers off the can. Those are guaranteed analysis. You have to use the as-feds or DMB on the pdf info sheets Susanne linked or if the food you are feeding is a different brand and those typical nutrient analyses are not on their website, you have to call for the as-feds or DMB.

Oh I see. So, @JaxBenji and @Marje and Gracie Susanne has calculated Duck at 0.8% and Venison at 3.0% so I may be in a pickle with no MC food on board. No wonder Pearl's drops dont slow much! Can I "make" my own MC food by adding a teeny bit of the HC to her LC? She is so very choosy with her foods. I am at a loss for a MC food.

 

[JaxBenji]

Can I "make" my own MC food by adding a teeny bit of the HC to her LC?

Yes - it's an option in the Low Number sticky - If you have a cat with GI issues, using a couple of drops of syrup plus low carb food is an alternative.

I'm sure you'll have to experiment with how many drops work for Pearl but am sure you'll figure it out

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Got it. I have I just ran them through so maybe you can be my sanity check

Venison 3% and Duck 0.8% (I got the same values using as-fed and dmb).

@Margaret (and Pearl) sorry for not totally understand the percent of total cals (which is Marje's point). And FWIW I see different values than what you have posted above...ohh I see you were using GA values. Read Marje's post when you can (the one I linked) and it has an excellent article on how GA values aren't awesome

Yep...I was just about to post. The beef, venison, lamb is 3% calories from carbs. For the Core Turkey and Duck pate, I got 0.1% using both as-feds and DMB. With these foods, you want to be sure and use 3.5 calories/gram for protein and carbs and 8.5 for fat.

I am at a loss for a MC food

I used Cats in the Kitchen Pumpkin Lickin Chicken in the pouch (12% calories from carbs) and Gracie LOVED it. It worked great for her; I never had to use a HC food. If I really needed big guns, I used a syringe and just used a drop or two of karo. I had to be careful on what I fed Gracie, too, because she had IBD. I had started with Wellness but had to ditch it. I fed her ZiwiPeak for her normal LC food but geez it’s expensive! They’ve changed the formulas but they had none of the gums or other stuff that is so aggravating to IBD kitties. I didn’t have to use the Cats in the Kitchen enough to be an issue.

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Yep...I was just about to post. The beef, venison, lamb is 3% calories from carbs. For the Core Turkey and Duck pate, I got 0.1% using both as-feds and DMB. With these foods, you want to be sure and use 3.5 calories/gram for protein and carbs and 8.5 for fat.


I used Cats in the Kitchen Pumpkin Lickin Chicken in the pouch (12% calories from carbs) and Gracie LOVED it. It worked great for her; I never had to use a HC food. If I really needed big guns, I used a syringe and just used a drop or two of karo. I had to be careful on what I fed Gracie, too, because she had IBD. I had started with Wellness but had to ditch it. I fed her ZiwiPeak for her normal LC food but geez it’s expensive! They’ve changed the formulas but they had none of the gums or other stuff that is so aggravating to IBD kitties. I didn’t have to use the Cats in the Kitchen enough to be an issue.

Thank you for the confirmation on these numbers, Marje! I tried the Pumpkin Lickin Chickin - I think Pearl thinks she is a human and therefore shouldn't have to eat cat foods, seriously. There are about 3 she will eat - her HC, and the Venison and the Turkey. LOL guess she can now have as much Venison as she wants!

I will go get some pouches tomorrow and try again - maybe she would be willing to try them again this time - I haven't experimented since her FD diagnosis. I wish I could do the Cats in the Kitchen pouches - do you know I scored a major deal before Christmas for 80 cents a pouch!!! I ended up donating to a rescue though, b/c it wasn't a hit here.

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Yep...I was just about to post. The beef, venison, lamb is 3% calories from carbs. For the Core Turkey and Duck pate, I got 0.1% using both as-feds and DMB. With these foods, you want to be sure and use 3.5 calories/gram for protein and carbs and 8.5 for fat.


I used Cats in the Kitchen Pumpkin Lickin Chicken in the pouch (12% calories from carbs) and Gracie LOVED it. It worked great for her; I never had to use a HC food. If I really needed big guns, I used a syringe and just used a drop or two of karo.

So MC sometimes for Gracie, HC a little bit but mostly the LC did the trick? That is awesome I hope for Pearl too.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

So MC sometimes for Gracie, HC a little bit but mostly the LC did the trick? That is awesome I hope for Pearl too.

I used higher low carbs like 6% alot of the times but I also used some 3% but that never slowed her down. At one time, I had some 10% that she loved but then they changed the formula and it became very HC so I had to ditch it. Gosh, over five years, I tried alot of different stuff. I didn’t keep her charts. I wish I had but data and food changes.

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

I used higher low carbs like 6% alot of the times but I also used some 3% but that never slowed her down. At one time, I had some 10% that she loved but then they changed the formula and it became very HC so I had to ditch it. Gosh, over five years, I tried alot of different stuff. I didn’t keep her charts. I wish I had but data and food changes.

I think I will add a bit of my HC to her LC meals when I need a MC fix at least for now

 

[Marje and Gracie]

I think I will add a bit of my HC to her LC meals when I need a MC fix at least for now

That is what Sienne did with Gabby because Gabby couldn’t tolerate gravies or glutens. Look at the most recent tab, BGs, and the remarks column. The HC is honey or syrup...I don’t remember which she used. The foods were pretty LC.

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

That is what Sienne did with Gabby because Gabby couldn’t tolerate gravies or glutens. Look at the most recent tab, BGs, and the remarks column. The HC is honey or syrup...I don’t remember which she used. The foods were pretty LC.

Thanks, I will take a peek. I tested her at +2.5 - down 100 points in an hour, UGGGHHHH. So I just mixed in 1tsp of her HC food with 30g of the LC (including the Venison which she loves and now is not MC anymore). I know we're gonna bounce though b/c of the drop. I got distracted thinking about MC foods, and my vet had called and AGAIN tried to discourage me from home testing.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Thanks, I will take a peek. I tested her at +2.5 - down 100 points in an hour, UGGGHHHH. So I just mixed in 1tsp of her HC food with 30g of the LC (including the Venison which she loves and now is not MC anymore). I know we're gonna bounce though b/c of the drop.

High before the break????

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

High before the break????

LOL fingers crossed that's what it is! It doesnt make much sense for a dip and then another bounce does it?

 

[Marje and Gracie]

LOL fingers crossed that's what it is! It doesnt make much sense for a dip and then another bounce does it?

No, it doesn’t but I bet Pearl isn’t reading the FD Lantus Manual

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

No, it doesn’t but I bet Pearl isn’t reading the FD Lantus Manual View attachment 59546View attachment 59547

I think I lost my chance tonight...she is back up to 251 at +4. I don't know whether or not I should anticipate a drop late in the cycle.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

I think I lost my chance tonight...she is back up to 251 at +4. I don't know whether or not I should anticipate a drop late in the cycle.

Probably not. Sorry...fell asleep Night!

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Probably not. Sorry...fell asleep Night!

Hope you slept, too. Yeah, I'm glad I did NOT check it later, since her AMPS today is 435. I cannot believe this sorry state of affairs! I think I need to keep going on as I have been, considering the Turkey as LC and adding the Venison for a little bit more "oomph" even though it is SO NOT a MC. Maybe there was a reason I was doing it that way to begin with.

 

[Marje and Gracie]

Hope you slept, too. Yeah, I'm glad I did NOT check it later, since her AMPS today is 435. I cannot believe this sorry state of affairs! I think I need to keep going on as I have been, considering the Turkey as LC and adding the Venison for a little bit more "oomph" even though it is SO NOT a MC. Maybe there was a reason I was doing it that way to begin with.

Well maybe this is the high before the break. Paws crossed. Until she does it, we won’t know her pattern.

She might be really carb sensitive. Jill’s (I hope she’s loving on my Gracie big-time) Alex could get a BG bump off freeze dried chicken, she was so carb sensitive.

Thanks..I did. I had my warm, snuggly, purry Tobey all cuddled up with me. He’s a hoot....if I roll over towards Mike, Tobey puts his paw on my shoulder...no claws...and gently pulls me back toward him

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

Well maybe this is the high before the break. Paws crossed. Until she does it, we won’t know her pattern.

She might be really carb sensitive. Jill’s (I hope she’s loving on my Gracie big-time) Alex could get a BG bump off freeze dried chicken, she was so carb sensitive.

Thanks..I did. I had my warm, snuggly, purry Tobey all cuddled up with me. He’s a hoot....if I roll over towards Mike, Tobey puts his paw on my shoulder...no claws...and gently pulls me back toward him

You might be right...we are down to 301 @+2. I will start a new post for today now. I'm glad you had your snuggly boy - that is SOOO FUNNY,

 

[Marje and Gracie]

You might be right...we are down to 301 @+2. I will start a new post for today now. I'm glad you had your snuggly boy - that is SOOO FUNNY,

He’s the warmest thing and his stocky SF body is just so cuddly!!!!!

Let’s go Pearl!!!!! But don’t get crazy about it!

 

[Margaret and Pearl (GA)]

He’s the warmest thing and his stocky SF body is just so cuddly!!!!!

Let’s go Pearl!!!!! But don’t get crazy about it!

I think you may be right about the carb-sensitivity, since the Venison has seeeemed to help until now (??) So for now I will lay off that HC food I added last night (even a tsp), and save it only for the below 50s.

Thank you! Yeah, let's go Pearl! I wish she was a cuddly one like Tobey, but she is my independent girl. The FD has made her for cuddly at times, for that part I am thankful!