1/25 asher
- Thread starter donnahc
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KristenP&Sam
Active Member
Here's to better numbers!
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Looking good. That is a nice safe nadir. It will be interesting to see how fast (or slowly) he rises and where he ends up for pmps. This is very encouraging, Donna! Way to go. :thumbup :thumbup
donnahc
Very Active Member
Great! Thanks Sue. We just did a +8 and he’s 115.
Another issue today is Asher is hungry so I think we are gonna have to give him some food now. A couple of tablespoons of the wet food I was thinking? Hate to keep giving him chicken treats all the time and not have them be a little special.
The last few days since he is totally on low carb food, he and his brother have been eating a little less at their big meals morning and evening but seem hungrier throughout the day. So, we have been leaving out what food they don’t eat, and they come back later to eat it maybe a few times. (we have to police this tho, so will have to get one of those times feeders, and dunno how it’s gonna be with two cats)
Also have been doing a 3am snack for Asher the last two days. Maybe the gradual food spread helps too. We are trying to feel that out. I realize I have to be consistent as to how much he eats, but trying to spread it out to a way that works for him and us.
I’ll report in with the pmps. How high should it be to give him the full 2 units do you think?
-d.
Another issue today is Asher is hungry so I think we are gonna have to give him some food now. A couple of tablespoons of the wet food I was thinking? Hate to keep giving him chicken treats all the time and not have them be a little special.
The last few days since he is totally on low carb food, he and his brother have been eating a little less at their big meals morning and evening but seem hungrier throughout the day. So, we have been leaving out what food they don’t eat, and they come back later to eat it maybe a few times. (we have to police this tho, so will have to get one of those times feeders, and dunno how it’s gonna be with two cats)
Also have been doing a 3am snack for Asher the last two days. Maybe the gradual food spread helps too. We are trying to feel that out. I realize I have to be consistent as to how much he eats, but trying to spread it out to a way that works for him and us.
I’ll report in with the pmps. How high should it be to give him the full 2 units do you think?
-d.
KristenP&Sam
Active Member
Nice, nice, nice. Keep testing to see where this goes!
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
How much do you feed overall?
Can you split it up into a couple meals during the day (and night)? Is one of the kitties a food hog or are they getting about the same amount?
Freezing it helps because they tend to eat it slower. (Gotta admit, though, freezing did not work for Oliver. He just dragged it around the house, leaving frozen pieces here and there and gobbling them up. I do know it does work for other people.....) We love our PetSafe5 automatic feeder. It has 5 spaces and the top moves, not the bottom. Oliver had destroyed two feeders before we got this one. He was so frustrated that he couldn't get into it. He would come over to it 30 minutes or so before he knew it would go off and just sit there and glare at it!
Any way you can figure out how to spread the food out into mini meals will help. I know it is a challenge when you have more than one cat.
Can you split it up into a couple meals during the day (and night)? Is one of the kitties a food hog or are they getting about the same amount?
Freezing it helps because they tend to eat it slower. (Gotta admit, though, freezing did not work for Oliver. He just dragged it around the house, leaving frozen pieces here and there and gobbling them up. I do know it does work for other people.....) We love our PetSafe5 automatic feeder. It has 5 spaces and the top moves, not the bottom. Oliver had destroyed two feeders before we got this one. He was so frustrated that he couldn't get into it. He would come over to it 30 minutes or so before he knew it would go off and just sit there and glare at it!
Any way you can figure out how to spread the food out into mini meals will help. I know it is a challenge when you have more than one cat.
donnahc
Very Active Member
When we first went to all canned food, the vet told us we could do up to one big 5oz can, per feeding, per cat. We are trying to do the exact same thing for both cats, for ease, and since Alby needs to loose weight too. They only ever ate 3/4 can of the science diet m/d at one feeding.
Then we switched them to Blue buffalo with less carbs (1% vs the 14% of the m/d). Now we are giving them each one small can, 3.5 oz plus a few pieces of chicken. Maybe the lower carb makes them feel more full?
They seem to want to eat less at one time now, but will go back and eat the leftovers later if I leave it out and add more water so it doesn’t get crusty. Asher “buries” his food so we know he’s done, but will come back in an hour or two.
And Asher seems to pest Tom for more food mid day. We try to feed him some chicken treats after we test him mid day, then we aren’t doing an “extra” feeding. He seems satisfied usually but today was hungry and kept up pesting. After two Tbsp. of canned food he was satisfied and is back snoozing.
This seems like an ongoing process...but spreading out the food seems to be the vibe I am getting from both cats.
-d.
ps...oh, and yes, Asher is a food hog/hoover kitty... thinks his brother’s food is better than his, even when its exactly the same
Then we switched them to Blue buffalo with less carbs (1% vs the 14% of the m/d). Now we are giving them each one small can, 3.5 oz plus a few pieces of chicken. Maybe the lower carb makes them feel more full?
They seem to want to eat less at one time now, but will go back and eat the leftovers later if I leave it out and add more water so it doesn’t get crusty. Asher “buries” his food so we know he’s done, but will come back in an hour or two.
And Asher seems to pest Tom for more food mid day. We try to feed him some chicken treats after we test him mid day, then we aren’t doing an “extra” feeding. He seems satisfied usually but today was hungry and kept up pesting. After two Tbsp. of canned food he was satisfied and is back snoozing.
This seems like an ongoing process...but spreading out the food seems to be the vibe I am getting from both cats.
-d.
ps...oh, and yes, Asher is a food hog/hoover kitty... thinks his brother’s food is better than his, even when its exactly the same
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Your numbers were lower but not scary. Depends if you can get some tests in tonight. You are making good progress, but it goes make things a little more nerve wracking. I would say yes, but test and definitely leave out some food.
donnahc
Very Active Member
Thanks Sue. We will go for 2u and test.
We are already trained for our 3am snack too, all it took is once, now
I wake up with him sitting looking at me waiting
He doesn’t have a watch, so how does he know?
So thru all my worry, I think I have lost sight of what our ultimate number goals are. What is a good set of numbers for the day where we can say if it’s consistent, we are happy and he is regulated? What is low but not too low?
I know I am getting ahead of myself here but I like to have goals in mind
-d.
We are already trained for our 3am snack too, all it took is once, now
I wake up with him sitting looking at me waiting
He doesn’t have a watch, so how does he know?So thru all my worry, I think I have lost sight of what our ultimate number goals are. What is a good set of numbers for the day where we can say if it’s consistent, we are happy and he is regulated? What is low but not too low?
I know I am getting ahead of myself here but I like to have goals in mind
-d.
Gator & H (GA)
Very Active Member
From what I understand of your past posts, "1%" BB is "As Fed" [which includes water/moisture which is usually around 75%] and not calories consumed or "%Kcal consumed" - which is the way the numbers in Janet & Binky's list are presented and the recommended carbs %'s are presented here. They should not be used interchangeably. The less than 10% carbs recommendation here is based on "% of calories consumed" and not "As Fed."
I never heard back from BB about getting the entire nutritional contents which would make the conversion possible.
1% seems like a low "as fed" value and I would hope that it would not be over 10% carbs when finally converted. But we really don't know. And some cats do even better with very low carb food [say below 5% cabs as calories consumed] - some cats seem very carb sensitive. Simply as a point of comparison is would be helpful in the management of the diabetes to know what the value really is even if it is below 10% from calories consumed.
Since diet is so crucial in the management of diabetes it might be helpful if you could find a food that you could accurately know the carbs % based on calories consumed - at least until you can get regulated.
I never heard back from BB about getting the entire nutritional contents which would make the conversion possible.
1% seems like a low "as fed" value and I would hope that it would not be over 10% carbs when finally converted. But we really don't know. And some cats do even better with very low carb food [say below 5% cabs as calories consumed] - some cats seem very carb sensitive. Simply as a point of comparison is would be helpful in the management of the diabetes to know what the value really is even if it is below 10% from calories consumed.
Since diet is so crucial in the management of diabetes it might be helpful if you could find a food that you could accurately know the carbs % based on calories consumed - at least until you can get regulated.
KristenP&Sam
Active Member
Donna, you're doing well. Just wanted to say that.
Sue and Oliver (GA)
Very Active Member
Here's a very general guide, Donna. Remember every cat is different.
Treated but not regulated [often above 300 (16.7) and rarely near 100 (5.6), poor clinical signs]
Regulated [generally below 300 (16.7) with glucose nadir near 100 (5.6), good clinical signs, no hypoglycemia]
Well regulated [generally below 200-250 (11.1-13.9) and often near 100 (5.6), no hypoglycemia]
Tightly regulated [generally below 150 (8.3) and usually in the 60-120 (3.3-6.7) range, no hypoglycemia, still receiving insulin]
Normalized [60-120 (3.3-6.7) except perhaps directly after meals -- usually not receiving insulin]
Treated but not regulated [often above 300 (16.7) and rarely near 100 (5.6), poor clinical signs]
Regulated [generally below 300 (16.7) with glucose nadir near 100 (5.6), good clinical signs, no hypoglycemia]
Well regulated [generally below 200-250 (11.1-13.9) and often near 100 (5.6), no hypoglycemia]
Tightly regulated [generally below 150 (8.3) and usually in the 60-120 (3.3-6.7) range, no hypoglycemia, still receiving insulin]
Normalized [60-120 (3.3-6.7) except perhaps directly after meals -- usually not receiving insulin]
Gator & H (GA)
Very Active Member
Thought I would note that if one compares against Wayne & Hobo's list here:
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30232
which has many As Fed values for various flavors 1%-2% carbs based on As Fed values seems to approximate maybe 2-6% cabs based on calories consumed. Usually one likes to a sanity check on the As-Fed values too that the pet food companies furnish [they have been known to furnish numbers that do not add up correctly and would thus throw off the conversion]. With a lot of assumptions a food that is really 1% carbs "as fed" seems like it might be OK. But I will say that on a personal level, I did not feed brands of food that refused to furnish their complete or requested nutritional breakdowns. Maybe trust and always verify ;-) .
viewtopic.php?f=28&t=30232
which has many As Fed values for various flavors 1%-2% carbs based on As Fed values seems to approximate maybe 2-6% cabs based on calories consumed. Usually one likes to a sanity check on the As-Fed values too that the pet food companies furnish [they have been known to furnish numbers that do not add up correctly and would thus throw off the conversion]. With a lot of assumptions a food that is really 1% carbs "as fed" seems like it might be OK. But I will say that on a personal level, I did not feed brands of food that refused to furnish their complete or requested nutritional breakdowns. Maybe trust and always verify ;-) .
donnahc
Very Active Member
Thanks Sue, Kristen and Gator!
I just wanted to have that set of numbers in mind. He has a bad tooth that has to be removed, but we can’t do it until he is “regulated", according to my vet. I don’t want that tooth to become another problem.
My vet is hip to me giving her spread sheets of the progress now so I will probably drop another one off to her next week.
I am going to look at the food lists again and see what I can find in the canned food that is low in carbs, and comes in bigger cans. The cats really do like the blue buffalo food, but it only comes in small cans so is not as economical. And as Gator says, if we really don’t know what the exact carbs are, that’s not great either. I know my local PetSmart has the Merrick foods on the list, I have to see what the local grocery has too.
Thanks guys, you are all great
-d.
I just wanted to have that set of numbers in mind. He has a bad tooth that has to be removed, but we can’t do it until he is “regulated", according to my vet. I don’t want that tooth to become another problem.
My vet is hip to me giving her spread sheets of the progress now so I will probably drop another one off to her next week.
I am going to look at the food lists again and see what I can find in the canned food that is low in carbs, and comes in bigger cans. The cats really do like the blue buffalo food, but it only comes in small cans so is not as economical. And as Gator says, if we really don’t know what the exact carbs are, that’s not great either. I know my local PetSmart has the Merrick foods on the list, I have to see what the local grocery has too.
Thanks guys, you are all great
-d.
KristenP&Sam
Active Member
I supplement the FF with the ground or pate version of Friskies and 9-Lives. My guys are a little picky about what flavors they'll eat, not sure if you'll find that the case with yours or not.
donnahc
Very Active Member
Asher, being the hoover that he is, is not that picky. His brother on the other hand, seems to like chicken the best but he’s still funky about his food. My goal is to feed them the same thing, because inevitably Asher will eat out of his brother’s dish at one time or another.
I will go to the store with the list in hand. it would be nice to have a small variety of things with the same carb value that I can feed too, so they don’t get sick of one thing.
-d.
I will go to the store with the list in hand. it would be nice to have a small variety of things with the same carb value that I can feed too, so they don’t get sick of one thing.
-d.
KristenP&Sam
Active Member
I wish my guys liked chicken more. There are a few flavors they'll eat, but they're fish-crazy. I'm really trying to work in more chicken because I know too much fish isn't good for them.
Gator & H (GA)
Very Active Member
Wow, sharp eyes!! I did not catch that. 2% IS the number you should go by which is great news.
I did add up the As Fed Protein, Fat, Carbs, Fiber, Ash & Moisture which DO equal 100% which is a very good sign! That the check to make sure the numbers are good. The only thing that makes me a little suspicious is that the values [except for Phosphorous] are all the same for all the flavors :roll: . But probably not suspicious enough to recommend you not feed them. It says he got the numbers from the MFRs so...
If Asher does not have pancreatitis issues [which might be impacted by high fat contents] then the grain free Wellness flavors come in big cans which helps one save a little. If your kitties will eat them some of those Merrick flavors are grain free and even better "balanced" [low carb medium fat and high protein] IMHO - I'm not sure if the come in big cans or not. If your pet food store does not carry the big cans, I know some pet food stores will special order the big cans on request if you find a brand/flavor they like.
Glad we hopefully got that nailed down. :smile:
I did add up the As Fed Protein, Fat, Carbs, Fiber, Ash & Moisture which DO equal 100% which is a very good sign! That the check to make sure the numbers are good. The only thing that makes me a little suspicious is that the values [except for Phosphorous] are all the same for all the flavors :roll: . But probably not suspicious enough to recommend you not feed them. It says he got the numbers from the MFRs so...
If Asher does not have pancreatitis issues [which might be impacted by high fat contents] then the grain free Wellness flavors come in big cans which helps one save a little. If your kitties will eat them some of those Merrick flavors are grain free and even better "balanced" [low carb medium fat and high protein] IMHO - I'm not sure if the come in big cans or not. If your pet food store does not carry the big cans, I know some pet food stores will special order the big cans on request if you find a brand/flavor they like.
Glad we hopefully got that nailed down. :smile:
donnahc
Very Active Member
Cool!
I did get a couple of cans of the Merrick Surf and Turf since it was the lowest carb and yes, they do come in big cans. I didn’t see if both the cats would eat it yet.
Tom wants us to get the Merrick Cowboy Cookout because he likes the name and that it allegedly has the same protein/carb/etc breakdown as eating a mouse
I did see those big Wellness cans but didn’t have my list with me at the time. Someday I will get organized
-d.
I did get a couple of cans of the Merrick Surf and Turf since it was the lowest carb and yes, they do come in big cans. I didn’t see if both the cats would eat it yet.
Tom wants us to get the Merrick Cowboy Cookout because he likes the name and that it allegedly has the same protein/carb/etc breakdown as eating a mouse
I did see those big Wellness cans but didn’t have my list with me at the time. Someday I will get organized
-d.
KristenP&Sam
Active Member
My guys will not touch Cowboy Cookout with a ten foot pole. :roll:
Gator & H (GA)
Very Active Member
BTW if you are interested in the contents of rat you can see this post:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/r ... ?8,1681932
This translates into approx [as %Kcal consumed]:
protein - 37.0%
Fat - 62.2%
carbs - 0.08%
But IMHO it is important to keep in mind that cats eat more than just rats - in particular I think they likely eat a significant quantity of bugs too as well as other things. I have another favorite axe to grind on that topic but I'll save you the pain. :smile:
http://www.felinediabetes.com/phorum5/r ... ?8,1681932
This translates into approx [as %Kcal consumed]:
protein - 37.0%
Fat - 62.2%
carbs - 0.08%
But IMHO it is important to keep in mind that cats eat more than just rats - in particular I think they likely eat a significant quantity of bugs too as well as other things. I have another favorite axe to grind on that topic but I'll save you the pain. :smile:
KristenP&Sam
Active Member
What about lizards and frogs? My cats love those. There are weeks when I rescue 4 or 5 cat-saliva soaked lizards out of this house.
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