1/23 Josie AMPS 132 +5.5 129 PMPS 234 Dose changed

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eccentricfuzzyme

Member Since 2011
I lowered josies dose to 2 units yesterday but again this morning she is below 150, at 132.
i cant postpone her shots or stay home with her today.
i want to know if it is better to give her nothing at all, or to give her 0.5 or 1 units?
please advise asap.
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 NEED DOSE ADVICE

Angela, I posted this on your other discussion thread:

Hi, Angela ~

Josie's keeping you on your toes, huh? What dose are you comfortable shooting this morning? The 1.0U or the .50U? If it were me, I wouldn't want to skip the shot entirely, but I'd want to shoot a reduced dose, too, since you're not going to be there to test.

I think this is a comfort level call for you, Angela. I get very nervous when I have to be away, too, when there's a low morning number.

Eva
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 NEED DOSE ADVICE

I've been told not to shoot under 200, esp if you can't be with her.
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 NEED DOSE ADVICE

I use the chart thing as a guide
*Below 150 don't shoot
*Between 150 and 200 you have three options: a.) give nothing; b.) give a
token dose (10-25% of the usual dose); c.) feed as usual, test in a couple
of hours, and make a decision based on that value and alter dose times

ETC
But i can never stay home to wait or postpone shots, so it limits my options..


I gave her somewhere between 0.75 and 1 unit this morning and made sure she ate her food.
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 NEED DOSE ADVICE

Oh, I see that you posted this while I was typing, Angela. I think you've made a reasonable dosing decision.
"I gave her somewhere between 0.75 and 1 unit this morning and made sure she ate her food."

Hi, Angela and Sabrina ~

As Sabrina's said, some members don't shoot at all at some given low number, both 200 and 150 are numbers sometimes used. Others of us have learned what our cats' typical responses to the Lantus will be and will shoot at lower numbers. But I feel very strongly that shooting lower numbers should be up to you and your comfort level when you can't be there to test.

I see that you've shot 1.50U when Josie was at 163 and at 153, but it appears that you were able to test her on those days, Angela. Since you won't be around today to watch out for Josie, go with what makes you comfortable for Josie's safety and your peace of mind. Maybe that's a BCS (Big Chicken Sh*t) answer, but I do think it's up to you. You can get back on track with the evening dose.

Eva
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 NEED DOSE ADVICE

hey,
i am heading out now.
i can often get back mid day to test at + 4 or +6 or so, but it depends if i have a drive. if i have to bus cross town and back i just cant do it. takes too long.
but today i should be able to get one reading in before pmps.
my goal is to always get one reading a day, at least, on top of the pre shots. I had been having some luck getting a PM +2 or 3 for awhile, but I dont know if that is tthe best use of the strips or not. I dont want to waste them on a number that doesnt "count" as much.
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 +5.5 129 Dose changed

Hi, Angela ~

I think you're doing very well and using your test strips wisely to collect some good bg data for Josie. You're always doing AM & PM preshot testing for her which is essential, I believe, to keep her safe. And you're getting some good mid-cycle nadir readings which are needed to make dosing decisions for her. "I had been having some luck getting a PM +2 or 3 for awhile, but I dont know if that is tthe best use of the strips or not. I dont want to waste them on a number that doesnt "count" as much." -- Angela, to me, those PM numbers are important, too, if/when you have the strips to use for those readings. By doing those PM +2 and +3 readings, you can see if Josie has made large drops from her preshot numbers which will give you guidance as to whether or not you need to test her more during the night. If you see that she's had significant drops in her bg, then you'll know that you should test again at +4 or +5 to see how low she's going. I know I have trouble doing enough PM testing for Butters, and he's likely gone low overnight explaining the high bounce number in the morning. I'm trying to get more PM +2 and +3 readings for him...l'm just so darn tired at night :smile: .

Angela, those are good numbers for Josie today. But they might be low enough to give you some concern when you're not going to be around to monitor her during the day. Are you thinking about backing off with Josie's dosing to 1.0U or even to .50U to see if you can be consistent with those doses both AM & PM?

Angela, I think you're doing a good job taking care of Josie.

Eva
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 NEED DOSE ADVICE

eccentricfuzzyme said:
hey,
i am heading out now.
i can often get back mid day to test at + 4 or +6 or so, but it depends if i have a drive. if i have to bus cross town and back i just cant do it. takes too long.
but today i should be able to get one reading in before pmps.
my goal is to always get one reading a day, at least, on top of the pre shots. I had been having some luck getting a PM +2 or 3 for awhile, but I dont know if that is tthe best use of the strips or not. I dont want to waste them on a number that doesnt "count" as much.

It's OK if you can't get mid day tests when you are working or away.... most people are at work Monday to Friday, 9-5 and then travel time, so they can test in the morn before shots, and not again till they get home again. I used to leave for work around 6am after testing then feed/shoot, and I'd get home around 4pm, so I could get a +10 then pmps, and maybe a before bed test. On the weekend / off days, you can do a curve to see how Josie's doing.

Always err on the side of caution; YOU know your cat, so if you are worried she is too low, give a reduced dose or even skip. Sure she may be higher in the evening, but at least you won't be worried about her going too low when you are away.

There are just the 3 most important tests: amps, pmps and before-bed test. All the rest is gravy to help you find Josie's nadir. When you have a day off, you could do a simple curve of ps, +3, +6, +9, and ps.

I think Josie's doing great and is having some very good numbers... maybe Josie's hinting at needing less insulin one day.

YOU are doing just fine.
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 +5.5 129 Dose changed

Hey, Angela! Long time no see!!

I hope you saw Jill's note (as well as Rebecca's posts) in your condo from yesterday. Since Jill posted today in the older thread, I thought I'd post it here. (Sorry if you've seen it already.)
Jill & Alex said:
Eva & Butters & 5 Others said:
And please don't shoot me, everyone, but I'd like to respectfully and gently suggest that either a modified version of Tight Regulation Protocol or the Start Low Go Slow Approach can work well for us if we're not following Tight Regulation to the letter. I like the guidelines that Tight Regulation provides even if you need to stay with a dose longer to keep your cat safe and to have more time to test for nadirs. With Lantus or any other insulin and the protocol that goes with it, we need to make it work for our cats, ourselves, our schedules, our work, our lives.

yes, we need to make things work for us, but we have a responsibility to do it safely.

the Tight Regulation Protocol with Lantus or Levemir for Diabetic Cats comes with requisites:

REQUISITES WHEN FOLLOWING A TIGHT REGULATION PROTOCOL WITH LANTUS OR LEVEMIR:

  • Kitty should be monitored closely the first three days when starting Lantus or Levemir.
    Blood glucose levels should at least be checked at pre-shot, +3, +6, and +9.
    More monitoring may be needed.
  • It will be necessary to test kitty's blood glucose levels multiple times per day.
  • Use U-100 3/10cc syringes with half units marked on the barrel for fine dosing.
  • Feed a high quality low carb canned or raw food diet.
  • Feed small meals throughout the day. Some kitties adapt well to free feeding.


these are not my requisites. they (and more) come from the protocol itself: http://www.tillydiabetes.net/en_6_protocol2.htm. these requisites serve as built-in safeguards for the cat. failure to adhere to these requisites results in creating a potential risk. recommending dose adjustments based on the guidelines in the TR Protocol when a caregiver has chosen to not follow the protocol... well, let's just say it could be dangerous.

practicing TR safely involves a commitment to the requisites listed above. not everyone can or wants to commit themselves to this kind of regiment. that's fine. it doesn't mean they can't have a healthy and regulated cat. it doesn't mean their kitty will never go OTJ. there have been many Lantus kitties who have gone OTJ following the SLGS Approach. many.

here's a little "SLGS Dosing Guidelines Cheat Sheet for Lantus Users" i recently prepared for a few others:

Starting Dose
  • 1u – 2u twice per day if kitty’s glucose was higher than 400mg/dL at diagnosis OR if cat is not on a wet low carb diet
  • 0.5u – 1u twice per day if kitty’s glucose was less than 400mg/dL at diagnosis OR if the cat has been switched to a wet low carb diet

Hold the dose for at least a week
  • unless your cat won’t eat or you suspect hypoglycemia
  • test often for ketones
  • be consistent in timing and type of food
  • shoot every 12 hours

After 1 – 2 weeks at a given dose perform a 12 hour curve, testing every 2 hours
  • if nadirs are more than 150, increase by 0.25 unit
  • if nadirs are between 90 and 149, maintain the same dose
  • if nadirs are below 90, decrease the dose by 0.25 unit

Lather, Rinse, and Repeat!


as you can see, SLGS is similar to the TR Protocol in that it recommends Lantus dose adjustments be made in small increments. the biggest difference is in holding the dose longer (as you mentioned above)... which takes those who don't want to/can't test as frequently as the TR Protocol requires into consideration. seems like a win - win to me! :mrgreen:
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 NEED DOSE ADVICE

Gayle Shadoe & Oliver said:
There are just the 3 most important tests: amps, pmps and before-bed test.

Unfortunately, because of my schedual, her pmps shot is my bedtime.
 
Re: 1/23 Josie AMPS 132 +5.5 129 Dose changed

Josie's PMPS for tonight is 234. And i am keeping her at the reduced dose of 1 unit. hopefully she will be above 200 tomorrow morning so i can feel confident shooting
 
Hi, Angela ~

Looks like that 1.0U dose is giving you a little more breathing room with Josie. Hope you're able to relax a little more at the reduced dose. :-D

Have a good day,
Eva
 
Good Morning, Angela ~

The 1.0U dose seems to be a much gentler, calmer dose for Josie. And you're starting to see nice blue mid-cycle numbers on that lower dose, too. You've got to have more peace of mind now, Angela, when you can't be around with Josie :smile: .

Hope you have a pleasant day,
Eva
 
Yeah, so far so good.
This morning she is up to 348, a bit higher than the last few days, but she pooped in the living room and puked on the couch last night, so I am assuming there wasnt enough food in her system to make the insulin work maybe?
 
Hi, Angela ~

If Josie isn't feeling well or has an infection going, that can raise her numbers. Sometimes even a hairball can do it. Is Josie feeling better today and eating, Angela?

Also possible that Josie went lower overnight without the food on board and that the morning 348 is a bounce off the night's low. No way to know for sure though.

Thinking of you both this afternoon.

Eva
 
Hi, Angela & Josie ~

How're you two doing? Looks like that 1.0U dose is working well for Josie so far.

Hope you're having a good week.

Eva
 
Hey,
We are doing okay.
She was a little low today but I gave her the 1 unit anyways.
Not sure how long to keep her at this dose, but as long as she is fairly stable, that is good with me.
 
Hi, Angela ~

"Not sure how long to keep her at this dose, but as long as she is fairly stable, that is good with me" -- If you find that you're needing to back off in dosing to .50U when preshot numbers are too low for you to be comfortable shooting the full 1.0U, then it might be time to consider dropping Josie to .50U AM & PM, Angela. Doesn't seem like you're quite there yet, but today might be a good check on that since you shot the 1.0 with that 165 blue number this morning.

Angela, you're getting some really good numbers for Josie.

Eva
 
if it ain't broke, don't fix it....

Josie is doing fine on a dose, so stick with it! That's your goal... to have her nice and stable, good numbers below 240, happy and healthy.

It's wonderful when you hit on a dose that just fits your cat perfectly.
 
Good Morning, Angela ~

I agree with Gayle. That 1.0U dose is working so well for Josie now and for your comfort level too, Angela, when you need to be away. Just stay with that dose.

If at some point Josie's numbers do start dropping consistently lower so you're no longer comfortable shooting the 1.0U dose, then might be the time to consider a dose change. But for now, you and Josie are doing great, Angela!

Eva

P.S. How's Josie doing with her new food?
 
Thanks guys.
She has adjusted to her new food, and now seems to like it as much as the old kind.
Has helped with the smell and firmness of her poops, and she has only pooped once outside the litter area.
 
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