1/20 Leko AMPS292 +2:369 +4:300 +6:284 +8:305 +10:245+12:262
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Eva & Butters
Member Since 2010
Re: 1/20 Leko AMPS292 +2:369 +4:300 +6:284 +8:305 +10:245+12
Hi, Heather ~
Just when you think you're starting to get it all figured out, Leko surprises you with a nice green 85 at +5 last night, huh?
What kind of numbers are you seeing for him so far today, Heather? There might be some bounce off that lower green last night. The usual recommendation is to wait for the bounce to clear (if there was a bounce today) which can take up to 72 hours and then see what the .50U dose is doing. You can do that Heather, but depending on Leko's numbers after that, then it might be time to consider a dose increase.
Looking at Leko's spreadsheet and his overall response to the .50U dose, I'm thinking that you might need to increase Leko's dose to .75U. Let's see what other Lantus members have to say, too.
Enjoy the day and good job doing the curve,
Eva
Hi, Heather ~
Just when you think you're starting to get it all figured out, Leko surprises you with a nice green 85 at +5 last night, huh?
What kind of numbers are you seeing for him so far today, Heather? There might be some bounce off that lower green last night. The usual recommendation is to wait for the bounce to clear (if there was a bounce today) which can take up to 72 hours and then see what the .50U dose is doing. You can do that Heather, but depending on Leko's numbers after that, then it might be time to consider a dose increase.Looking at Leko's spreadsheet and his overall response to the .50U dose, I'm thinking that you might need to increase Leko's dose to .75U. Let's see what other Lantus members have to say, too.
Enjoy the day and good job doing the curve,
Eva
Re: 1/20 Leko AMPS292 +2:369 +4:300 +6:284 +8:305 +10:245+12
Would you please explain the bounce thing? I see the term thrown around here, but all I can find is reference to symogi (sp?) rebound... which is supposedly rare?
Either way, I'm assuming if we had a bounce, he'd be over 400 or something today. AMPS right in line with yesterdays...
So... the nadir for last night would be at +6. WTH is it so late compared to previous numbers where he hit peak approx +2??? That makes me nervous to up to .75, although I've been kind of feeling like he needs the increase.
Would you please explain the bounce thing? I see the term thrown around here, but all I can find is reference to symogi (sp?) rebound... which is supposedly rare?
Either way, I'm assuming if we had a bounce, he'd be over 400 or something today. AMPS right in line with yesterdays...
So... the nadir for last night would be at +6. WTH is it so late compared to previous numbers where he hit peak approx +2??? That makes me nervous to up to .75, although I've been kind of feeling like he needs the increase.
Eva & Butters
Member Since 2010
Re: 1/20 Leko AMPS292 +2:369 +4:300 +6:284 +8:305 +10:245+12
Hi, Heather ~
That yellow 296 is not a bad start to the day after the lower green 85 for Leko last night. That may or may not be a "bouncette" off the 85. Since you've been getting yellow preshots for a couple of days now along with that green nadir last night, you might want to hold the .50U dose for a few more days to see what kind of numbers you get for Leko. By the way, bouncing doesn't have to be into the 400s. It could even be into the 200s off a lower number or a fast drop, although I believe that might be called a "bouncette" on the Lantus TR board . Over time for many cats, the bouncing lessens and/or occurs in a lower number range.
"Bounce" occurs if a cat drops into lower numbers than what the cat is used to or experiences a fast drop in BG numbers. As a result, the liver "panics" and dumps a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones into the bloodstream. That causes numbers to spike upward. This process is a normal, protective function of the liver. It can take up to 72 hours for a bounce to clear.
Heather, I like how Julie explains "bouncing" on the Lantus TR board:
New Dose Wonkiness (NDW) and Bouncing Explained
(scroll down to see how Julie explains bouncing)
The nadir is not at a fixed hour in the cycle (time between two shots) for a cat, although for Lantus, it often occurs around +6 for many cats. For our cat Butters, we've seen nadirs at from +3 to +7, and I've read about cats having nadirs as late as +11. That's why the spot checks you've been doing for Leko are helpful. You'll start getting a better sense of when his nadirs typically occur.
Eva
Hi, Heather ~
That yellow 296 is not a bad start to the day after the lower green 85 for Leko last night. That may or may not be a "bouncette" off the 85. Since you've been getting yellow preshots for a couple of days now along with that green nadir last night, you might want to hold the .50U dose for a few more days to see what kind of numbers you get for Leko. By the way, bouncing doesn't have to be into the 400s. It could even be into the 200s off a lower number or a fast drop, although I believe that might be called a "bouncette" on the Lantus TR board
. Over time for many cats, the bouncing lessens and/or occurs in a lower number range. "Bounce" occurs if a cat drops into lower numbers than what the cat is used to or experiences a fast drop in BG numbers. As a result, the liver "panics" and dumps a stored form of glucose along with counterregulatory hormones into the bloodstream. That causes numbers to spike upward. This process is a normal, protective function of the liver. It can take up to 72 hours for a bounce to clear.
Heather, I like how Julie explains "bouncing" on the Lantus TR board:
New Dose Wonkiness (NDW) and Bouncing Explained
(scroll down to see how Julie explains bouncing)
The nadir is not at a fixed hour in the cycle (time between two shots) for a cat, although for Lantus, it often occurs around +6 for many cats. For our cat Butters, we've seen nadirs at from +3 to +7, and I've read about cats having nadirs as late as +11. That's why the spot checks you've been doing for Leko are helpful. You'll start getting a better sense of when his nadirs typically occur.
Eva
Re: 1/20 Leko AMPS292 +2:369 +4:300 +6:284 +8:305 +10:245+12
Thanks, Eva. That helps some. Guess I'll see how he does the next few days.
I can't hel but wondered how low he goes on the days where +2 is under 150... But then those numbers aren't necessarily useful as we've improved his eating regularity and my testing and shooting skills since then. SO many factors.
Thanks, Eva. That helps some. Guess I'll see how he does the next few days.
I can't hel but wondered how low he goes on the days where +2 is under 150... But then those numbers aren't necessarily useful as we've improved his eating regularity and my testing and shooting skills since then. SO many factors.
MommaOfMuse
Member Since 2010
Re: 1/20 Leko AMPS292 +2:369 +4:300 +6:284 +8:305 +10:245+12
Heather,
I have the queen of the bounce in Musette, you are more than welcome to look at her spreadsheet in my signature if you like to see what a bouncy cat looks like in numbers.
Musette got very use to living in those high high numbers before I adopted her as a diabetic, so now that she is finally getting treated on a regular basis and we have finally adjusted her dose to where it needs to be, when she starts hitting lower numbers than what her body is use to her liver panics and she bounces, but slowly (her liver is a slow learner ) she bounces less high each time...She went very low tonight, not dangerously, hypo low but much lower for longer than she is use too...So I'm willing to lay money on the fact that she is going to bounce again tomorrow, and I'm going to have to don my patience pants and just out wait her on the bounce and not react to those higher numbers tomorrow...Tonight proved her dose is correct that it will put her were she needs to be to let her pancreas rest and heal if it is going to. Now her body has to learn what it feels like to be in those numbers again and not worry that she is going into hypo.
Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang.
Heather,
I have the queen of the bounce in Musette, you are more than welcome to look at her spreadsheet in my signature if you like to see what a bouncy cat looks like in numbers.
Musette got very use to living in those high high numbers before I adopted her as a diabetic, so now that she is finally getting treated on a regular basis and we have finally adjusted her dose to where it needs to be, when she starts hitting lower numbers than what her body is use to her liver panics and she bounces, but slowly (her liver is a slow learner
) she bounces less high each time...She went very low tonight, not dangerously, hypo low but much lower for longer than she is use too...So I'm willing to lay money on the fact that she is going to bounce again tomorrow, and I'm going to have to don my patience pants and just out wait her on the bounce and not react to those higher numbers tomorrow...Tonight proved her dose is correct that it will put her were she needs to be to let her pancreas rest and heal if it is going to. Now her body has to learn what it feels like to be in those numbers again and not worry that she is going into hypo.Mel, Maxwell, Musette & The Fur Gang.
Eva & Butters
Member Since 2010
Re: 1/20 Leko AMPS292 +2:369 +4:300 +6:284 +8:305 +10:245+12
Hi, Heather and Mel ~
Heather, after spending more time looking at Leko's spreadsheet, I'm thinking that he's getting more of those good green numbers than his spreadsheet shows. "I can't help but wonder how low he goes on the days where +2 is under 150... But then those numbers aren't necessarily useful" -- I'm wondering the same thing, Heather, but I believe those mid-cycle low (nadir) numbers are very useful. Lantus dosing is typically based on the nadirs, so it's helpful to have a record of what they are.
Quite a few of us test at +2 or +3 as you're doing for Leko, but we use those numbers to tell us how much testing we need to be doing during that cycle (time between shots). If we see that the +2 or +3 number is a big drop from the preshot number, then we know that we'll likely be seeing some action and need to test more to check for lows. For example, on 1/13, Leko dropped from 372 to 172 at AM +2, a 200 point drop. If you'd been around and able to check Leko at +5 or +6 or even +4, it would have been interesting to see how low he went. Leko also had big drops at AM +2 on 1/14 and 1/15 and at +3 on 1/18. Knowing how low he went on those days would have been helpful to see how well the .50U dose is working for him.
You're doing a great job testing Leko, Heather, and your schedule might not allow for more testing during the day. But I like that you got the PM +5 for Leko on 1/20. If there's any way, maybe you could start getting a few more mid-cycle PM numbers during the week? And I do know, believe me, that we've got to get some sleep, too .
Heather, I really like Julie's (Julie and Punkin) explanation of important spreadsheet numbers:
"i like to use this metaphor - if you can think of the spreadsheet like a jigsaw puzzle, the preshot numbers are like having the edge pieces. the mid-cycle numbers fill out the picture. what we have for Leko (replacing Leko for the cat discussed) is an incomplete picture. if you have at least the preshot numbers and a mid-cycle number we'll be able to tease apart the situation and give you better advice. lantus dosing is based almost completely on whatever the lowest point is that the cat got to in the previous 6-10 cycles. we test at preshot to make sure the cat is safe to give insulin to."
If Leko were my cat, Heather, I'd hold the .50U dose and try to get some more mid-cycle numbers before making a dosing change decision. Just my two cents...
Have a lovely day with Leko,
Eva
Hi, Heather and Mel ~
Heather, after spending more time looking at Leko's spreadsheet, I'm thinking that he's getting more of those good green numbers than his spreadsheet shows. "I can't help but wonder how low he goes on the days where +2 is under 150... But then those numbers aren't necessarily useful" -- I'm wondering the same thing, Heather, but I believe those mid-cycle low (nadir) numbers are very useful. Lantus dosing is typically based on the nadirs, so it's helpful to have a record of what they are.
Quite a few of us test at +2 or +3 as you're doing for Leko, but we use those numbers to tell us how much testing we need to be doing during that cycle (time between shots). If we see that the +2 or +3 number is a big drop from the preshot number, then we know that we'll likely be seeing some action and need to test more to check for lows. For example, on 1/13, Leko dropped from 372 to 172 at AM +2, a 200 point drop. If you'd been around and able to check Leko at +5 or +6 or even +4, it would have been interesting to see how low he went. Leko also had big drops at AM +2 on 1/14 and 1/15 and at +3 on 1/18. Knowing how low he went on those days would have been helpful to see how well the .50U dose is working for him.
You're doing a great job testing Leko, Heather, and your schedule might not allow for more testing during the day. But I like that you got the PM +5 for Leko on 1/20. If there's any way, maybe you could start getting a few more mid-cycle PM numbers during the week? And I do know, believe me, that we've got to get some sleep, too
.Heather, I really like Julie's (Julie and Punkin) explanation of important spreadsheet numbers:
"i like to use this metaphor - if you can think of the spreadsheet like a jigsaw puzzle, the preshot numbers are like having the edge pieces. the mid-cycle numbers fill out the picture. what we have for Leko (replacing Leko for the cat discussed) is an incomplete picture. if you have at least the preshot numbers and a mid-cycle number we'll be able to tease apart the situation and give you better advice. lantus dosing is based almost completely on whatever the lowest point is that the cat got to in the previous 6-10 cycles. we test at preshot to make sure the cat is safe to give insulin to."
If Leko were my cat, Heather, I'd hold the .50U dose and try to get some more mid-cycle numbers before making a dosing change decision. Just my two cents...
Have a lovely day with Leko,
Eva
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