1/19 Spicey Need Feedback

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tajana340

tajana340

Active Member
Hello Everyone, Please take a look at Spicey's spreadsheet. I would of thought she would have come down not up.She did not eat an hour before the pzi instaed she ate 1 hour afterwards. I don't know if that could affect her #s or not or, is there a possibility of a misshoot on the insulin? The only reason I ask is maybe I am not giving her the insulin in the right place.
I gave her insulin on her left side of the body instead of the right and considering the info I recieved when she started who knows. I thought about maybe giving her another one but my instinct is to take another test in 30 mins and see what the results are and if they are still high I will just wait till amps to give insulin. I did watch the you tube video on how to give insulin and that is not how i give it to her so maybe that is what is going on.

Thanx Guys

David
 
Giving "fur shots" is a common thing especially when you are first starting out. My advice to you would be not to shoot again. There was just someone's mom in health that thought she missed then shot again and the cat hypoed. If you were 110% sure the insulin did not go in e.g. you visually saw that it did not go in the cat then one might shoot again. But you probably would have already shot again if you were 110% sure.

It doesn't matter which side you give the shot into. If you are doing the sides than you will probably want to rotate [a good thing about doing sides]. Also you may have shot into some fat which can slow the release of the insulin. If you are doing along side the stomach then the kitty breasts are something you should avoid. When they are lying on their side I noticed that when I was starting out shooting on the side that I had to aim a little higher than I thought so I would not hit 'em.

When you get the short needles you will want to make sure you sunk the needle in up to the hilt. Then when you inject you should think/try "push the plunger" not "pull the barrel." If you pull the barrel then you can pull the needle out.

Not sure if you have seen this illustration:
http://www.bd.com/us/diabetes/page.aspx ... 01&id=7374
 
I think I may have shot into some fat because the other night on 1/16 pmps i shot her on that side. Hmm may have to make a note on spreadsheet. Thanx Gator
 
concave vs convex tent

I'm not saying that is what happened. Just that supposedly hitting fat can delay the release of the insulin.

Not sure if this will help you at all. On the old PZI board I a post about the concave vs convex tent here's a recap:
H is long hair obviously and I'm right handed. It is hard to describe, but I'll give it a *shot*:
1) Pick up a fold of skin or a clump of hair between left thumb and index finger - bring up and let a little loose then bring up more.
2) Use right thumb and index finger to spread the hair apart several times. This will have the added bonus of growing the skin from an "I" shape into an "A" shape.
4) Use the left hand to adjust the tightness of the skin - it should not be super tight or the kitty will protest [and it will hurt more].
3) Give shot into this now fairly large target area in the convex "A" with the right hand.

This technique works really well for the side of the stomach but not so hot for areas with more skin like the scruff. The side of the stomach is a convex area while the scruff is a concave area of the body. The scruff makes a nice concave tent that's good for larger needles like when doing subQ fluids. The side makes for good convex tents which work well for me with insulin.
 
Well, David, this information is good to know. If you think you missed the shot, then jot that down... but NEVER EVER shoot again.

The other issue may be what Kimmee was talking about earlier and that is that the .5 may be too much for her. Yes, we've seen some good numbers... but could that be on days when her body isn't fighting the insulin well enough? I don't know. This is where the data comes into play.

You need to hang tight and wait until morning. That's tonight's plan.

Then let's have a look at the AMPS BEFORE you shoot. There may be something to do at that time. If no one is around and she is high enough to shoot, stick with the .5. Another cycle is ok. But the next step would be to discuss this with a few others and figure out if you want to do a rebound check (cutting the dose in half for 2 cycles to see if the BGs come down) or raising the dose by a smidgen. With respect to raising the dose, I would wait until your other syringes get here so that you could just go up to a .6 if you need to increase.

Have you looked at the conversion chart and familiarised yourself with it? You'll need to use this each and every time you dose - just to make sure that you get it spot on.

Here's the chart just in case you haven't been linked to it yet... Insulin Conversions: U-40 and U-100. Please print it out and have it with your kit.
 
Thanx guys. I went with my gut instinct to not shoot. Yes will have to see what amps is and i would rather wait until the u-100's come in before anything and yes i will definetley print that out and post on the fridge.

Victoria Ready for the olympics?

WEll have to get some rest. Will See you in am.

David
 
Here's a good rule for you to follow: do not try to figure out the cause of an unusually high number. You'll make yourself crazy. Just accept that either you gave a fur shot or she's constipated or something. Shoot your .5 unit this morning and don't worry about. If it becomes a pattern, then worry.

There is absolutely nothing in your spreadsheet that looks like rebound [edited to add] TO ME. Rebound is caused by glucose levels dropping too low. Spicy hasn't gone too low since you've been on the .5 unit dose. The other day when she dropped from the 400s to the 100s, it was the result of exercise not insulin. And she didn't zoom up after those 100s. No rebound.
 
Rebound can also be triggered by a drop in glucose levels that is too fast and too steep-- the bg levels do not have to go dangerously low for rebound to occur.

Terri--- how do you know for a fact that the large drop the other day was NOT caused by the insulin? Statements of fact like "The other day when she dropped from the 400s to the 100s, it was the result of exercise not insulin." can be very misleading and dangerous.
 
Carolynn & Fletcher & Robbie said:
Terri--- how do you know for a fact that the large drop the other day was NOT caused by the insulin? Statements of fact like "The other day when she dropped from the 400s to the 100s, it was the result of exercise not insulin." can be very misleading and dangerous.
Click to expand...

Carolynn--No one can say anything for certain, but if you look at the spreadsheet, he had a 400 followed by a drop to the 100s and then 12 hours in the 200s. That would be a unique rebound pattern. Small dose cats get lots of advice to continue reducing the dose and then end up needing a higher dose from all the time they waste chasing microscopic doses. If you would like to continue your criticisms of me, please do it through PM.

I'm very sorry Fletcher [edited to correct name] is not doing well. I know much you love him and how hard this must be for you.
 
tajana340 said:
Victoria Ready for the olympics?
Click to expand...

Not really... I think I feel burned that we are spending all this money and a bit worried that I have not one clue what is going to happen when all the world comes to our little city. As cosmopolitan as we are, we are still rather small. Even during the few months in which we have massive amounts of cruise ship people come into town we are overwhelmed.

But, I live and work in the downtown core so I'm right in the middle of the party... which is also exciting.
olympicflag.gif
bf-olympicrunsmiley.gif




My attitude is that we are in this now... let's make the best of it.
canada2.gif

So I am positive about everything (except our mascots... I hate the mascots).

They look more Japanese than Canadian... :-x
all.jpg


Thanks for asking. I'm sure I'll have a ton of photos to share as the events unfold.
 
I was posting publicly on the board, Terri, because blanket statements can be harmful. If you took it personally, that's an issue you need to look inward about and determine why you would take my post that way. I, too, have used PZI, have been on this board for almost 4 years, and feel comfortable with my opinions/advice/what-have-you.

Although I do have 2 diabetics, neither is named Tucker (although I DO love Jennifer's Tucker very much). FLETCHER is not doing well, but having an acrocat survive (and for the most part THRIVE) for 3 years post-diagnosis is something I have to take solace from. Thank you for your support.
 
Seriously folks?!!

PZI Land is pretty calm normally. I'm not taking Terri's side here but Terri does have this way of being right [or at least producing good results for kitties]. And I think is pretty respected by the folks here in PZI Land. You know we just had another person come in here that doesn't post often in here [a certain moderator of this board] making blanket statements. I let that individual know, but in a way way more diplomatic and forgiving manner. None of us are perfect. Hopefully, David is an adult and can make up his own mind about how to care for his kitty. I think David has come to learn that there are just about always diverging options here. And that ultimately he is the one with the syringe in his hands.

PZI Land has been under a pretty unrelenting assault lately. We really don't need much more.

And I don't want to speak for Terri, but I would ask that you give her a pass right now.
 
Gator & H said:
Seriously folks?!!

PZI Land is pretty calm normally. I'm not taking Terri's side here but Terri does have this way of being right [or at least producing good results for kitties]. And I think is pretty respected by the folks here in PZI Land. You know we just had another person come in here that doesn't post often in here making blanket statements. I let that individual know, but in a way way more diplomatic and forgiving manner. None of us are perfect. Hopefully, David is an adult and can make up his own mind about how to care for his kitty. I think David has come to learn that there are just about always diverging options here. And that ultimately he is the one with the syringe in his hands.

PZI Land has been under a pretty unrelenting assault lately. We really don't need much more.
Click to expand...

Well said, Gator. Thank you.
 
Sometimes with Bix I would see a pattern where some good #s are followed by a cycle or two of bad #s and that (as I understand it, no documentation here, just what I learned on the board) was his body just protesting because it wasn't used to good #s. I'm not sure that's what's going on here, because Spice had better #s for a few cycles and with Bix the response was more immediate (like 1 good cycle triggered bad #s, but it wasn't rebound in the sense of going too low or having too steep a drop).

Another thought (just mentioning things here David so you'll have more info on ways to look at the data) is that sometimes with PZI if the dose is too high, you will see an inverse curve. So the mid-cycle #s will be higher than the PS, but then the #s will come down again at the end of the cycle. I'm not seeing that so far with Spice, as today's PS was still high.

If it were me, I would probably stick with this dose another cycle or two just in case you did get a fur shot, and then reevaluate.
 
Gator & H said:
Seriously folks?!!

PZI Land is pretty calm normally. I'm not taking Terri's side here but Terri does have this way of being right [or at least producing good results for kitties]. And I think is pretty respected by the folks here in PZI Land. You know we just had another person come in here that doesn't post often in here [a certain moderator of this board] making blanket statements. I let that individual know, but in a way way more diplomatic and forgiving manner. None of us are perfect. Hopefully, David is an adult and can make up his own mind about how to care for his kitty. I think David has come to learn that there are just about always diverging options here. And that ultimately he is the one with the syringe in his hands.

PZI Land has been under a pretty unrelenting assault lately. We really don't need much more.

And I don't want to speak for Terri, but I would ask that you give her a pass right now.
Click to expand...

You are entitled to your opinion as are all of the members of the FDMB. The question was asked about a statement made, not because of who said it, but because of what was said and how it was said. Don't assume that everytime a poster is questioned that the person asking the question is trying to slam a particular person's advice. However, if you see a pattern of the advice being questioned often by several different people then perhaps you have to ask yourself about the overall level of credibility the poster has if they are continually being asked to explain why they said this or that.

And just because someone doesn't post often here or on any other forum here don't go blasting them when they do. That attitude does nothing for your own credibility.
 
For David's (and the innocent readers') sake, can everyone PLEASE take the OT discussions off-line, either in a new thread or PM those who you wish to communicate with?

I for one would really appreciate it, it's just not helping things at all. Frankly, I don't have the energy at this point to even try to read and digest anyone's non cat-related arguments. Whether any of you are right or wrong in what you say I have no idea - your tone is off-putting.

David, you may want to start a new thread to get your questions about Spice looked at. I'm going to report this one to the Mod to get some eyes on it that (hopefully) are not as irritated as mine are right now.
 
Gator & H said:
You know we just had another person come in here that doesn't post often in here [a certain moderator of this board] making blanket statements. I let that individual know, but in a way way more diplomatic and forgiving manner.
Click to expand...

I'm now curious to know whether this is aimed at me or another moderator.

-- Janet
 
Janet & Binky (GA) said:
I'm now curious to know whether this is aimed at me or another moderator.

-- Janet
Click to expand...
Since you asked, it was "aimed" at you Janet. I was using it as an example of how one might go about handling blanket statements made by respected members of this board. I think I let you know in a respectful, diplomatic and forgiving way. Am I wrong? And that everyone here - even some of the super experienced and [IMHO] smarter folks here - are not perfect. Do you disagree with me? You just as Terri is are able to know when you have made a blanket statement and don't need someone jumping down their throat about it.

Thank you for asking. I do not like mentioning names without permission.
 
karen and splash (ga) said:
You are entitled to your opinion as are all of the members of the FDMB. The question was asked about a statement made, not because of who said it, but because of what was said and how it was said. Don't assume that everytime a poster is questioned that the person asking the question is trying to slam a particular person's advice. However, if you see a pattern of the advice being questioned often by several different people then perhaps you have to ask yourself about the overall level of credibility the poster has if they are continually being asked to explain why they said this or that.

And just because someone doesn't post often here or on any other forum here don't go blasting them when they do. That attitude does nothing for your own credibility.
Click to expand...

Wow.
 
Not to beat it to death, but was my point completely lost? I think it is inappropriate to continue in an OT manner on this thread. It's not helping the cat, it's not helping the newbie, and it's not helping those of us who are here to learn from and help if we can on this diabetes case.

There are other options available to hash out non-diabetes/cat related issues if they are worth pursuing, rather than posting on this thread.

p.s Lest their be any confusion, my comments are directed at everyone. :lol:
 
agree with joanna, is'nt there a room this kind of converstion can go like we had on the other board. take it to think tank if there is one. pzi has to stay ON TOPIC for the kitties sake and ESPECIALLY the newbies. i'm back on pzi idexx after 2+ years and i may have forgotten a whole lot and i need you regular users to be on board and with thinking caps on. k?
 
lori and tom said:
agree with joanna, is'nt there a room this kind of converstion can go like we had on the other board. take it to think tank if there is one. pzi has to stay ON TOPIC for the kitties sake and ESPECIALLY the newbies. i'm back on pzi idexx after 2+ years and i may have forgotten a whole lot and i need you regular users to be on board and with thinking caps on. k?
Click to expand...

My thinking cap cuts off my circulation sometimes, but it is on and I'm ready to go. ;)
 
Wow, I just checked this topic and wow, I agree with Joanna about taking it to the think tank. Thank goodness I am a very laid back person or I think all that happened would be a turn off. It doesn't bother me what happened in here and it should have been handled elsewhere.

I know you all care about everybody here and sometimes being passionate about something causes a lot of emotion. So thank you all for caring soooo much.
David
 
LOL Sarah! well wear it loosely ok?
i'm hoping to get tom into vet today for hyper-t testing. i'm in so. cal having like the wildest weather ever and don't like taking him out in it especially with how he must be feeling. don't wanna upset the poor boy anymore then necessary and it's not a total emergency.
he does seem to have all the signs of hyper-t...nervous, scampering about, ravenous, (not drinking tho) losing a little weight. his #'s have been more consistent tho. before shooting him 5 days ago they were all over the map. now he seems to go about 24 hours on 1/3 u and then i get mid 200's...perhaps if i tested him more i'd catch the rise but i'm more worried about his self come downs than those #'s....agree/disagree?
hey, any hyper-t's here?
 
i actually don't see the problem and why it needs it's own thread here????

advice about a cat was given and it was subsequently questioned and should be discussed. shutting down the discussion about advice given is actually a disservice to the cat in question if you ask me. discussing given advice may actually help the cat rather than hurt it. taking the questioning personally is up to each individual but newcomers who haven't been here long or know much board history should have the benefit of the discussion and why the discussion is necessary so they can justifiably make up their own mind about things. keep it clean kids and we might just have an intelligent discussion. are we capable??? :smile:
 
cindy i agree with your point....but the tone of a discussion can take a left turn and then it stops being helpful and just get's angry. your right tho' intially the post was given some decent feedback. all back and forth discussions about pzi are to be encouraged...and considered. leave the other stuff at the door.
 
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