1/19/20 Zoot! AMBG=295, +3=318 +6=231 +9=258; PMPS=320 +3=236 Day 9 Ending Trial

Cinnie Cole

Cinnie Cole

Member Since 2019
So Zoot!'s numbers continue to climb. AMBG=295 Do I continiue to not give him insulin?

If not, when do I start insulin and at what level?

Thanks.
 
carfurby said:
I'd see if he brings his numbers down today. You could still be seeing the kibble infuence.
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Okay. I need to decide, though, when the numbers are going too high. He has steadily creeped up over the last week.

He has a good appetite, but is starting to be more "urgent" about eating. He is eating a lot. I will see how it goes today with his behavior - I have not seen him drinking or peeing more. But I sense he is not a good as he was a week ago.
 
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It looks like Zoot! needs some insulin. I would give him some at PM if he isn’t down a lot by then. I would have even given some this morning.
I’m just having a hard time believing these numbers are due to the kibble, two days later.
Plus, with what you, Cinnie, are noticing about how Zoot! felt better a week ago, is telling.
Still, I wouldn’t want you to take my advice over more experienced people!
I hope I am wrong!
 
Tina Marie and Jan said:
It looks like Zoot! needs some insulin. I would give him some at PM if he isn’t down a lot by then. I would have even given some this morning.
I’m just having a hard time believing these numbers are due to the kibble, two days later.
Plus, with what you, Cinnie, are noticing about how Zoot! felt better a week ago, is telling.
Still, I wouldn’t want you to take my advice over more experienced people!
I hope I am wrong!
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Exactly - I feel like it is not kibble at this point. At +3 he is up to 318. As much as I would love to hold off on insulin hs numbers are only increasing at this point.

I feel like I need to make a decision about dosing and need help on when and how much. His last dose was 1 U, is that what I should go with?

Who can help me decide on next steps? Thanks.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
I think the kibble is out of Zoot's system. I think a try at 0.25u may be a place to start.

If I had to guess why this happened and how to prevent it in the future, the insulin dose may need to be tapered down to a drop versus stopping at 1.0u. I think Zoot's pancreas needed the extra support.
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Yeah, clearly he is not producing the insulin he needs - I will test again at +6. Should I start at the normal time tonight (as opposed to right now)? Thanks for the guidance.
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
I think the kibble is out of Zoot's system. I think a try at 0.25u may be a place to start.

If I had to guess why this happened and how to prevent it in the future, the insulin dose may need to be tapered down to a drop versus stopping at 1.0u. I think Zoot's pancreas needed the extra support.
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Apologies if I am hijacking this condo, but just to understand, how would one taper the insulin dose in a case like Zoot's from 1 to zero? He suddenly went on a mission of greens without any insulin and his numbers were too low in the first few days to shoot any. In such a case, should one feed higher carb food and give insulin? I'm asking so I know what to do if I ever face a situation like this.

Sorry to pile on to your condo, @Cinnie Cole . I was watching Zoot's numbers and siliently cheering him on..
 
Bandit's Mom said:
Apologies if I am hijacking this condo, but just to understand, how would one taper the insulin dose in a case like Zoot's from 1 to zero? He suddenly went on a mission of greens without any insulin and his numbers were too low in the first few days to shoot any. In such a case, should one feed higher carb food and give insulin? I'm asking so I know what to do if I ever face a situation like this.

Sorry to pile on to your condo, @Cinnie Cole . I was watching Zoot's numbers and siliently cheering him on..
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No need to be sorry at all - I have the same concerns. I would have been very hesitant to drop down by .25u increments given the situation we had with Zoot!, too. And I would never have thought to give HC/MC food and shoot - seems counter-intuitive of what we were hoping was happening; plus how could we even gauge what HC would do and what the dose should be. That would be something interesting to learn, too.

We relied upon our Vet, who is very supportive of the expertise in this group; but it was clear giving Zoot! insulin was already dropping him into the 40s and high 30s. I don't think there was any rushing into this - it felt quite organic in process.

Whatever the situation that caused him to start to produce his own, it did not last, but maybe next time.

I am testing again in an hour (+6); he has been sleeping since +3, so don't expect much change. Just hoping it is not continuing to go up. C'mon, Zootie!
 
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I think I'd be inclined to give a little insulin to see if you can kick start whatever was going on recently when he went all green - obviously his pancreas was working then...and it might be faltering a bit...and that kibble incident didn't help a bit as it challenged his pancreas to produce insulin and it let him down - so I'd say he needs the help, but also careful monitoring to make sure his pancreas, when it does kick in again will be able to do it's job and you'll be able to withdraw the insulin again.

He's an interesting one though...
 
Gosh darn it! Now he is at +5.75 = 231. (recheck right after eating 2 tbsp food was 243 so that 231 was right) And he was hungry. Well I wanted it to go down; but really - not like a rollercoaster. @Sienne and Gabby (GA) your thoughts? Should I test at +9 and delay a decision on insulin till I see a couple more numbers?

Thanks.
 
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Cinnie Cole said:
Gosh darn it! Now he is at +5.75 = 231. (recheck right after eating 2 tbsp food was 243 so that 231 was right) And he was hungry. Well I wanted it to go down; but really - not like a rollercoaster. @Sienne and Gabby (GA) your thoughts? Should I test at +9 and delay a decision on insulin till I see a couple more numbers?

Thanks.
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The only thing I have managed to figure out about feline diabetes is that it is one roller coaster! It is a "box of chocolates"!!!
 
Oh no . . . look how hard he is trying! It's a good thing.
I agree that Zoot! was having so many greens after coming off that last 1 unit dose, it would have felt wrong to give him any insulin. It looked like he was having some spontaneous, rushed remission!
 
If it were me, if numbers were not in normal range at PMPS, I'd start insulin (or wait until AMPS at the very latest with the came caveat).

The idea isn't to jump to HC/MC when bumping up the carbs unless you're already feeding Zoot a food that's in the 8% (give or take) range. You can still use LC food just food that's at the upper end of the LC range.

Also, there are a couple of ways to micro-dose. One way is to count the number of drops in 1.0u or 0.5u and use that as a means of adjusting the dose. As an example, if there are 10 drops of insulin in 0.5u, 0.1u would be 2 drop so you would eliminate 8 drops of insulin. A "drop" of insulin (i.e., <0.1u) would literally be one drop (eliminate 9 drops). Alternatively, when you need to shoot less than 0.1u, push hard on the plunger, insert the syringe into the insulin container and then release the pressure on the plunger. There will be about 1 drop in the syringe.

@Bandit's Mom (see above)
 
Sienne and Gabby (GA) said:
If it were me, if numbers were not in normal range at PMPS, I'd start insulin (or wait until AMPS at the very latest with the came caveat).

The idea isn't to jump to HC/MC when bumping up the carbs unless you're already feeding Zoot a food that's in the 8% (give or take) range. You can still use LC food just food that's at the upper end of the LC range.

Also, there are a couple of ways to micro-dose. One way is to count the number of drops in 1.0u or 0.5u and use that as a means of adjusting the dose. As an example, if there are 10 drops of insulin in 0.5u, 0.1u would be 2 drop so you would eliminate 8 drops of insulin. A "drop" of insulin (i.e., <0.1u) would literally be one drop (eliminate 9 drops). Alternatively, when you need to shoot less than 0.1u, push hard on the plunger, insert the syringe into the insulin container and then release the pressure on the plunger. There will be about 1 drop in the syringe.

@Bandit's Mom (see above)
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Thanks - I don't want to switch foods now. His evening food LC has 4%. As for the insulin, I will maybe try the drops method, but I don't know if I can see count accurately enough. Will practice now. Thanks.
 
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