09/23/2019 Mowgli AMPS 202 +1 207 +11 275 PMPS 320

AmandaE

AmandaE

Member Since 2019
09/20/2019

Mowgli has been in quite a cycle of going low at night time and bouncing way up in the day time. I have been feeding higher % LC (~6%) in the evenings and lower % LC (0-3%) in the mornings to try and break this cycle. Still my curves tell me to stay at this dose, so we will remain at 1u BID.

QUESTION: I was wondering: if I can get a +1 and / or a +11 during the AM cycle would that be enough for TR? I know Mowgli typically has onset around +2 so I wasn’t sure if I tried following TR with those samples in the day cycle if I would be missing the purpose of TR because I am just trying to achieve the sample quota per cycle.

Thanks for any advice :)
 
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Any test you get is good.

With TR, of course preshot tests. Then at minimum 1 other test per cycle. Try to do those at different times. If you get one before bed that great.
 
Olive & Paula said:
Any test you get is good.

With TR, of course pre-shot tests. Then at minimum 1 other test per cycle. Try to do those at different times. If you get one before bed that great.
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Thanks Paula!

I think for night time I have it covered, I'm just a little more nervous for the day time cycle since I would definitely only be able to grab a +1 and/or +11, so outside of weekends I am nervous that I wouldn't be able to get the info needed during the week. For the AM cycle I can get AMPS, +1 and +11 during the week. Some days maybe not +1, some days maybe not +11. So I wouldn't really be able to get a lot of variety in test times.
 
carfurby said:
I hope Mowgli flattens out for you in lower numbers. I'm not sure about the test times with TR.
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Honestly Im not sure if it would be for me because I would be nervous to leave him through the day. I don't have any flexibility in my work schedule so it could be that SLGS is still the best option. But now that I have a little more understanding on how Mowg reacts to insulin I have been considering giving it a try... but only if +1/+11 would work :)

J.J. and Phoebe Squeak said:
I don't know enough to give advice, but I wanted to wish you well and bump you back up to the top.
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Thanks JJ :)
 
Not an easy thing to decide. I wouldn't be comfortable with any increased dose if I couldn't test at +4 (for Tina, because that tells the most for her cycle). Then again, she is different, in that her lower numbers are usually during the day instead of night.
+1 is usually a food bump, and +11 would just give an idea on whether the insulin is conking out before PMPS. Just my thoughts . . .
 
Crista & Ming said:
I really think that's your answer as to if +1/+11 will work. Maybe you could even move his shot time up 30 mins so you get a +1.5.
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I think that is my question though, like ... I know his onset isn't until +2 (usually). So is the practice of the additional test through the cycle other than the pre-shot to understand how aggressive his onset and cycle will be to keep them safe? or is it just to have thrown another test out there. Mowgli goes lowest at night so I am mostly always able to get the needed testing in there... but definitely not during the day. The saving grace from the +1 /+11 is that I will know if he is either still getting action from his previous dose or not, predicting whether or not before I leave for work.

For now I wont consider getting up any earlier although I agree that it would be the most logical thing to do for TR, it's too much for me. Staying up late monitoring his BG bc he goes lower at night and then getting up, even a half hour earlier than now, then working away for about 10 hrs... I would be in really bad shape mentally and physically, it's past my limits.

Thanks for your advice Crista :joyful:
 
try out that +11 -- Catcat often gets a second dip late in his cycle -- apparently some cats do, on Lantus, no one knows why -- sometimes for us, that low point is lower than the +4 to +6 "official" nadir .. I'm doing same as you, feeding 5% at night, 2% daytime
 
Tina Marie and Jan said:
Not an easy thing to decide. I wouldn't be comfortable with any increased dose if I couldn't test at +4 (for Tina, because that tells the most for her cycle). Then again, she is different, in that her lower numbers are usually during the day instead of night.
+1 is usually a food bump, and +11 would just give an idea on whether the insulin is conking out before PMPS. Just my thoughts . . .
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I agree! I believe that is valuable info though in predicting for example, whether at PMPS it is safe to give a dose or not.

I was reading through some of the 'TR and working' article and a couple members had used the +1/+11 as precursors to understand if it was safe to shoot or not / safe to leave without leaving higher carb or not. I had also read that one of the members would time her increases to land on thursday's so that by the time the depot had built she would be home on the weekend to monitor.

Definitely a difficult decision... that's why i'm picking the trusty board's brains on it :P

CandyH & Catcat said:
try out that +11 -- Catcat often gets a second dip late in his cycle -- apparently some cats do, on Lantus, no one knows why -- sometimes for us, that low point is lower than the +4 to +6 "official" nadir .. I'm doing same as you, feeding 5% at night, 2% daytime
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I do grab a +11 from time to time after work if I can! (read: if the bus is on time :P)

How have you found the higher %LC in the pm and lower %carb in the am working for you?

Mowgli's typical nadir is +3 to+5, although lately his bounce cycle has been making it look like his PMPS is the nadir... I think he's just quickly breaking bounces... could be wrong though.
 
You could check with @Bellasmom - she works full time out of the house - and they're on TR.

I'd be very nervous about it - but it can be managed by leaving MC or HC food down when you can't be at home to monitor. Do you already have an auto - feeder? It'll keep him safe while you're away...and/or think about a camera to watch him during the day on your phone.
 
AmandaE said:
picking the trusty board's brains on it
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Did you Tag one of the long time advisors? They have many years of experience & can give you the best advice.

I've been doing this 19 months & still mess up sometimes. They can look at Mowgli's SS & see something that you might have missed. You can read all the notes but every cat is different.

I thought I had Ravan's BG figured out. He was doing so good. Two days ago he was at 57. Today he's at 250. Something is wrong. I'll be at the vet thurs & try to find out what's going on. He just had a Blood Panel done 8 weeks ago & everything was good. Even his teeth looked good according to the Vet.

I'm afraid to hear bad news.:arghh:
 
AmandaE said:
How have you found the higher %LC in the pm and lower %carb in the am working for you?

Mowgli's typical nadir is +3 to+5, although lately his bounce cycle has been making it look like his PMPS is the nadir... I think he's just quickly breaking bounces... could be wrong though.
Click to expand...

it's sorta "feeding the curve" -- can't stay up at night, short on sleep as it is, so the additional carb load at night is essentially insurance that he won't drop dangerously low at night even if he breaks the bounce then

conversely, if he breaks the bounce during the daytime, I want to know, and I want to give him the best chance to show lower numbers

not really sure how well it's working, but I try to think ahead -- what I'm feeding at time X will influence how he's doing at X+2 and pretty well out of his system by X+3
which is why I tend to test 3 hours apart or so, or give him a snack then at least

I howl and I whine I'm after you
Mouth is alive all running inside
And I'm hungry like the wolf
 
Sue and Luci said:
You could check with @Bellasmom - she works full time out of the house - and they're on TR.

I'd be very nervous about it - but it can be managed by leaving MC or HC food down when you can't be at home to monitor. Do you already have an auto - feeder? It'll keep him safe while you're away...and/or think about a camera to watch him during the day on your phone.
Click to expand...
Bellasmom said:
This is my schedule for TR for Bella
4:30 am test and feed
4:40 am shoot, if hes low I will get a +1
6:40 am test again right before I leave for work and leave food down according to his number
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Yes, I have consulted with Jamie before and we have about the same time we leave for work... I tip my hat to Jamie... there is no way in H.E.double hockey sticks I could get up at 4:30 :P

I don't have an autofeeder... I free feed my cats because it seems to work for them. Neither of them are the scarf and barf type, and Mowgli typically feeds himself through his lows. Also Mowgli has a pretty early nadir so I am nervous of breaking up his 1 can of FF meal for AM into two feedings in case he needs the additional food at +3. Also there is the 2 cat issue... I would have to get 2 timed feeders, one for each cat. I'm not sure it would work. If I got meaningful info from the +1, I could infer if I needed to leave out MC though. I know these sound more like excuses, but in my mind the feeding technique we use seems to work without the added cost of auto-feeders. I could be wrong though, it just seems like things are working the way we have it.

I have been considering getting a motion sensing camera to monitor who is eating how much during the day though... i think that is something I can't answer right now. (Black Friday Sales are coming sooner than later :))
 
JoyBee&Ravan said:
Did you Tag one of the long time advisors? They have many years of experience & can give you the best advice.

I've been doing this 19 months & still mess up sometimes. They can look at Mowgli's SS & see something that you might have missed. You can read all the notes but every cat is different.

I thought I had Ravan's BG figured out. He was doing so good. Two days ago he was at 57. Today he's at 250. Something is wrong. I'll be at the vet thurs & try to find out what's going on. He just had a Blood Panel done 8 weeks ago & everything was good. Even his teeth looked good according to the Vet.

I'm afraid to hear bad news.:arghh:
Click to expand...
I haven't tagged anyone yet, as I find they usually peruse the '?' posts in the evenings but maybe I should. And yes I agree, everytime I think I know Mowg's patterns he comes out of left field with something new :P

I hope everything is all right with Ravan, vetty vines for him :bighug:
 
CandyH & Catcat said:
it's sorta "feeding the curve" -- can't stay up at night, short on sleep as it is, so the additional carb load at night is essentially insurance that he won't drop dangerously low at night even if he breaks the bounce then

conversely, if he breaks the bounce during the daytime, I want to know, and I want to give him the best chance to show lower numbers

not really sure how well it's working, but I try to think ahead -- what I'm feeding at time X will influence how he's doing at X+2 and pretty well out of his system by X+3
which is why I tend to test 3 hours apart or so, or give him a snack then at least

I howl and I whine I'm after you
Mouth is alive all running inside
And I'm hungry like the wolf
Click to expand...
That is my strategy too Candy... Duran Duran and all ;)
 
I like the idea of changing your shot time a bit earlier to get at least a +1.5. Usually, a +1 will show a bit of a food bump and if it is the same or lower it could indicate an active cycle. If getting a 1.5 isn’t possible ,the + 11 is helpful to see if the AMPS is lower , then you will know that the number is dropping and depending on how low it is, you’d give higher LC food or MC or HC depending on that number.

Try grabbing those two test for a few days and see they shed some light.

I think he’s going to drop for you this cycle and maybe get back into the lagoon.
 
Bobbie And Bubba said:
I like the idea of changing your shot time a bit earlier to get at least a +1.5. Usually, a +1 will show a bit of a food bump and if it is the same or lower it could indicate an active cycle. If getting a 1.5 isn’t possible ,the + 11 is helpful to see if the AMPS is lower , then you will know that the number is dropping and depending on how low it is, you’d give higher LC food or MC or HC depending on that number.

Try grabbing those two test for a few days and see they shed some light.

I think he’s going to drop for you this cycle and maybe get back into the lagoon.
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Thanks Bobbie!

I hope you're right about Mowgli visiting the lagoon! I had a similar feeling, especially since he's been clearing these higher AM numbers quickly, and we had a nice lemon AMPS this morning :)

As per my sleep needs, I meant the +11 for the AM cycle not the PM cycle. I will be honest: already it is a real struggle for me to get up at 5:45 am. If getting up earlier is the way forward to following TR, I think it would be best for myself to stick with SLGS, which I have been happy following so far, I just thought that it may be worth trying TR and seeing if we could get more progress.

Thanks again for the insight :)
 
AmandaE said:
09/20/2019

Mowgli has been in quite a cycle of going low at night time and bouncing way up in the day time. I have been feeding higher % LC (~6%) in the evenings and lower % LC (0-3%) in the mornings to try and break this cycle. Still my curves tell me to stay at this dose, so we will remain at 1u BID.

QUESTION: I was wondering: if I can get a +1 and / or a +11 would that be enough for TR? I know Mowgli typically has onset around +2 so I wasn’t sure if I tried following TR with those samples in the day cycle if I would be missing the purpose of TR because I am just trying to achieve the sample quota per cycle.

Thanks for any advice :)
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The answer is, “yes, you can do TR with a +1 and a +11”. You might want to review Is Tight Regulation Possible with a Full Time Job because you’ll see that Libby did it with Lucy (who went OTJ) and she provides some great tips.

However, more than whether a +1 and a +11 would allow following TR, my question back to you is will that data make you comfortable that he is safe and will it give you enough knowledge on how low the dose is taking him so you will know when he needs dose adjustments? Read the post I linked and then see how it, and the tips, can apply to your needs.

The +1 may have a food spike and if it doesn’t, like today, you could leave with the assumption that the BG is going to come down when he onsets and you might have a more active cycle. It might be worth your while to buy those chip auto feeders so each cat can only get into his/her feeder. And while the +11 will give you some data so you’ll know if he’s dropping between +11 and PS, it won’t really tell you where he’s been. Having said that, alot of members who work don’t know that either.

Does that help? :)
 
Marje and Gracie said:
The answer is, “yes, you can do TR with a +1 and a +11”. You might want to review Is Tight Regulation Possible with a Full Time Job because you’ll see that Libby did it with Lucy (who went OTJ) and she provides some great tips.
Click to expand...

Yes! After following SLGS for 6 months and getting a better feel for Mowgli's reactions to insulin, I decided to re-read that article... Libby's story is what prompted me to ask! When I was first starting out, and first read that post, absolutely I thought TR was out of the question because everything was much more overwhelming, but I know now, that it is possible to at least get an AM +1 or +11 daily, and both from time to time.

Marje and Gracie said:
However, more than whether a +1 and a +11 would allow following TR, my question back to you is will that data make you comfortable that he is safe and will it give you enough knowledge on how low the dose is taking him so you will know when he needs dose adjustments? Read the post I linked and then see how it, and the tips, can apply to your needs.
Click to expand...

I think I can never know for certain how low Mowgli is going while I'm gone, but I also think even with SLGS that I am in the dark about what happens to Mowgli during the day. I have to rely on my weekend AM cycle curves to get a better idea of his day time habits. I do have quite a bit of data for the PM cycle for Mowgli, that data combined with almost all of the daytime curves (not all but most) tells me that Mowgli's PM data is the worst case scenario for him... he just does go lower at night. That being said, more rapid dose changes may come with a change in patterns. I will say that I would probably be more likely to leave out MC, or even skip shots while following a more aggressive dose change protocol

Marje and Gracie said:
The +1 may have a food spike and if it doesn’t, like today, you could leave with the assumption that the BG is going to come down when he onsets and you might have a more active cycle. It might be worth your while to buy those chip auto feeders so each cat can only get into his/her feeder. And while the +11 will give you some data so you’ll know if he’s dropping between +11 and PS, it won’t really tell you where he’s been. Having said that, alot of members who work don’t know that either.
Click to expand...

Still hesitant about the feeders (nervous about collars) BUT I agree with what you said about the +1, today I set out an extra 1/2 can of FF for each of my cats because of the lack of movement at +1. I agree that the value of the +11 will tell me how he will be coming into his next cycle... lately with these mini bounce breaks hes been dropping right into his PMPS. Hopefully he will flatten out soon!

Marje and Gracie said:
Does that help? :)
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This definitely helps! it's so great to have so many perspectives to consider when deciding if I want to do a trial... I think that's what I will have to do is a mini trial. I think what I will do is start grabbing the +1/+11 for the next couple of days (as @Bobbie And Bubba suggested)and maybe around Thursday start a trial :)

Thanks!!
 
AmandaE said:
Yes! After following SLGS for 6 months and getting a better feel for Mowgli's reactions to insulin, I decided to re-read that article... Libby's story is what prompted me to ask! When I was first starting out, and first read that post, absolutely I thought TR was out of the question because everything was much more overwhelming, but I know now, that it is possible to at least get an AM +1 or +11 daily, and both from time to time.



I think I can never know for certain how low Mowgli is going while I'm gone, but I also think even with SLGS that I am in the dark about what happens to Mowgli during the day. I have to rely on my weekend AM cycle curves to get a better idea of his day time habits. I do have quite a bit of data for the PM cycle for Mowgli, that data combined with almost all of the daytime curves (not all but most) tells me that Mowgli's PM data is the worst case scenario for him... he just does go lower at night. That being said, more rapid dose changes may come with a change in patterns. I will say that I would probably be more likely to leave out MC, or even skip shots while following a more aggressive dose change protocol



Still hesitant about the feeders (nervous about collars) BUT I agree with what you said about the +1, today I set out an extra 1/2 can of FF for each of my cats because of the lack of movement at +1. I agree that the value of the +11 will tell me how he will be coming into his next cycle... lately with these mini bounce breaks hes been dropping right into his PMPS. Hopefully he will flatten out soon!


This definitely helps! it's so great to have so many perspectives to consider when deciding if I want to do a trial... I think that's what I will have to do is a mini trial. I think what I will do is start grabbing the +1/+11 for the next couple of days (as @Bobbie And Bubba suggested)and maybe around Thursday start a trial :)

Thanks!!
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You’re welcome. To me, the “biggest take home” is to not increase the dose until you know how low the current dose is taking him.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
You’re welcome. To me, the “biggest take home” is to not increase the dose until you know how low the current dose is taking him.
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I’m really into that conclusion :)

Let’s see how the next couple days go just getting those additional tests in while following SLGS, then, if I can get up the nerve ... I think I will do a mini TR trial. If it goes alright maybe I will commit to the switch. :nailbiting::nailbiting:;)
 
AmandaE said:
I’m really into that conclusion :)

Let’s see how the next couple days go just getting those additional tests in while following SLGS, then, if I can get up the nerve ... I think I will do a mini TR trial. If it goes alright maybe I will commit to the switch. :nailbiting::nailbiting:;)
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:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
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