09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +5 176

Status
Not open for further replies.

MartinJA527

Member Since 2014
Ok.. what is going on? We're consistently seeing lower numbers in the AM and then she's right back up in the PM.. only this time, I'm scared to shoot! She just cleared a bounce, I have no idea if she rose from this number or if it's her lowest. My husband checked her, fed her and woke me. Our safest option is to skip today right?

Heres Yesterday's New's
 
Re: 09/02 AMBG 78 HELP PLEASE??

Good morning. ~O)

Wow, that's a very interesting # this morning, isn't it? :-D Good job! Here's some information (a snippet) that I found with regards to shooting low #s:

HOW TO DEAL WITH LOW PRESHOT NUMBERS

**** The following guidelines apply to the Tight Regulation Protocol for Lantus or Levemir ****


You just tested your cat’s preshot number, and there is a much lower than usual number staring back at you. What do you do?

There is no one-size-fits all answer, but there are some general guidelines. As with everything else, each cat is different (ECID) and each caregiver is different too.

The short answer is that most kitties can be shot at +12, almost regardless of the number, once you are data ready to do so. The exception is that shooting 30s or 40s is not recommended for most cats, so if the cat is less than 50 then usually the best option is to wait until they are above 50 to shoot. While you’re waiting, the shed is draining, so you want to get the insulin in as soon as it makes sense to shoot.

If it is your first time shooting green, then we will likely suggest that you stall the first time, even if the number is 80-100. That will let you collect data on what your cat will do when you stall. One thing you can do if you are having a low cycle is to get a +10 and +11. Those will give you a good idea of how quickly the cat’s numbers are rising (or not) when preshot time arrives.

Beyond the general guidelines, there are other factors we consider when we are helping someone with a low preshot.
If the low preshot is not part of that cat’s normal pattern or there is reason to think something might be wrong, we will be more conservative.
If the cat is not a food spiker or tends to have an early onset/early nadir then they may not want to shoot as low. If the cat has a late nadir, then they will HAVE to learn to shoot low.
We will also be more conservative in some cases because of the person – if you are not able to monitor then you want to be more careful, or if you are not sure that you can get back to the board to keep us updated throughout the cycle. Trust me, if you shoot low, we will be watching for your updates and we will worry if we don’t see them.
We have to be a lot more careful with the cats who eat only dry food, because they don’t have access to the tools the rest of us use to keep our cats safe.
Also, when it comes to very low preshots, there is an unwritten rule that whoever helps that person shoot low should expect to sit with them through any low parts of the cycle. There have been times when I knew a cat’s number was likely shootable, but I also knew that I could not be around to help if the shot resulted in low numbers later in the cycle. For safety’s sake, if I could not find someone else who would be available to support for the next several hours, I would most likely suggest that the shot be reduced or skipped. I will not encourage someone to shoot low and then abandon them.
There are a lot of other scenarios, and you always want to keep your cat in mind.

Some general rules when stalling (ECID):

** 50s or higher – don’t feed. The number will bump up on its own soon due to the insulin wearing off.
** 40s or lower – you have a couple of choices.

When 40’s occur at the end of the cycle, it can be beneficial to withhold food and test in 15-20 minutes to determine if kitty is on the rise or hasn’t reached nadir yet.
If they are hanging in the 40s for a while, or if they are still dropping, it is ok to feed a tsp or two of LC and retest. This is very tricky. You want to avoid feeding too much while you’re waiting for them to go over 50, because you don’t want to artificially inflate the number with food.
--- Example: if kitty is 43 and you feed a whole meal, or feed some HC, and the number bumps up to 52, is that the cat’s natural end-of-cycle rise, or is it food spike? What if it is food spike? Then if you shoot the 52, when the food wears off he might drop back to the 40’s (and when insulin kicks in a couple of hours later, you might have a problem). If the 52 is the cat’s natural rise, then he will probably keep rising for the next few hours until insulin kicks in. If you can’t tell whether the number is food spike or natural rise, it’s safest to wait. Your data will help you here. Study the spreadsheet. How much food spike does the cat usually get? How many hours after the shot does the insulin’s onset usually occur in this cat? At what number is the cat likely to be when onset occurs? If the cat does drop, how easy/hard is it to regain control of the numbers? How carb sensitive is he?

** Test often (every 15-20 minutes, or at most every 30 minutes). You want to catch the rise the minute it starts. With most of our cats, once they start to rise they will really zoom. You want to get the insulin in as soon as possible, because it will be another 2-3 hours before the insulin kicks in and you don’t want to let the cycle get too far ahead of you.

Perhaps the most important guideline in shooting low is that any time you shoot your lowest ever number, you should get a +1 and +2 to give you an idea of how the cycle will go. If the +1 is not higher than PS, or if +2 is much lower than PS, that means “pay attention” over the next few hours. Those tests will also help you become even more data ready for the next time you are presented with a low preshot reading.

Using the overlap by shooting low is a great way to take advantage of Lantus/Levemir’s long, flat cycles, once you have learned to do so safely.

I hope that helps.
 
Re: 09/02 AMBG 78 HELP PLEASE??

Skipping is definitely an option, especially if you're not going to be around to monitor. But, if you are going to be around and can keep a close eye on things, you could either shoot a full dose (I see you shot a 108 the other day which is not TOO far off from today's 78), or you could shoot a reduced dose.

Generally when we stall (hold off before shooting because of a low number), we don't feed because we want to know if the kitty is rising naturally. With food on board, that will influence the outcome of future tests, so we won't know if the rise is natural or if the food caused the rise. But don't worry about having fed Booger already...this is just for future reference! Stalling can be a double-edged sword, because sometimes a kitty will continue to drop just because there is no food on board.

If you do shoot, whether it's a full dose or a reduced dose, you do want to start off by grabbing a +1 and +2 test.
 
Re: 09/02 AMBG 78 HELP PLEASE??

I did refer to that and it is helpful, but she's been fed. A full meal. So does that mean I stall and shoot at a later time or will that be considered food spike? I just checked her again (+.5) and now she's at 91, could that be a food spike or is that normal rising numbers?
 
Re: 09/02 AMBG 78 HELP PLEASE??

Thanks Amy, I just saw your reply too. I would like to attempt to shoot her today so she can continue her greens.. I'm just nervous. I think I will go for it and cross my fingers, pray, have my hypo kit together, and the kitty carrier ready to go to the vet...
 
Re: 09/02 AMBG 78 HELP PLEASE??

The 91 is probably food-influenced, but that's OK....did you see my note right after Angela's?
 
Re: 09/02 AMBG 78 HELP PLEASE??

Yes, I did. I will be home all day and will keep a close eye on her like I did yesterday. I can run her to the vet or come back here if I need help (praying I don't have to). Do you think I should reduce the dose too? She's now 45 minutes late on her injection.
 
Re: 09/02 AMBG 78 HELP PLEASE??

You certainly can shoot a reduced dose - that would be fine. I do have to go to work shortly, but someone is almost always around to help, and there is the sticky above for handling low numbers. Do you have karo and high carb food in the house, just in case?

A couple things to remember:

Your evening shot will be 12 hours from when you shoot this morning. That's always something to keep in mind when delaying a shot.

You don't want to over-feed Booger. If her numbers start to fall, you want her to be hungry enough that she'll eat the high carb food if you need her to. You really don't need to break out the high carb food or Karo unless you see a number below 50, but as soon as you see a number below 50 you do want to get her above it. You'll test every 20-30 minutes to make sure she stays over 50.

Being nervous is understandable. We have a mantra here: Shoot low to stay low. Hopefully Booger will set up a beautiful green surf!

You're in good hands with your LL family!
 
Re: 09/02 AMBG 78 HELP PLEASE??

Ok thank you so much for your help! I'll shoot a reduced dose just to hopefully be on the safe side and we'll go from there and I'll keep all those things in mind. Thanks again!
Jen
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

great job shooting! I bookmarked a recent post where i explained about shooting low - it might be helpful to relieve your mind if you take a peek at it. if you've arrived at the dose safely, as you have, and you shoot low, it can often change the entire game.

I'm also off to work but i'm sure you'll do fine. if you get scared you can always hit the 911, but i suspect you'll be fine.

julie
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

Thank you Julie. You are always so helpful. I read your post and it is comforting. I think I read something similar to that on another post this morning while trying to find other information on shooting low. She's hanging out in the low 100's currently but maybe that will ward off the evil bounce... We shall see.. Thanks again!
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

Looks like she is running off of the depot. Nice blue cycle. I live the low blues because I'm not constantly worried about dipping under 50 or diving. Enjoy this calm but still healing day.
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

Hi Jen

Just checking in on you all and see from Boogers SS that she's on a bit of a rise now.

A couple things I'd like to add now that the urgency is over.

First, it would be really great if you could put the 78 on her SS. Ni would put it in the +11 column from last night. If you did the test at +12, just put "78 @ 12" in the + 11 box of last nights cycle. Then you will have to manually color code it by selecting the box and then going to the top of the SS and clicking on the pitcher icon and select the green color. Next to it is the font color and so you will need to select white.

In the AMPS box, please put "91 @ 12.5" if you shot 30 minutes late. That let's us know you stalled. You might put in the remarks that you had fed her and this was a food spike. These small things are important for you and us to know.

It's a little scary the first time you shoot a dropping number and it's green. It's scary because you don't know if the numbers will go up from food or continue to drop. I've shot a dropping 50 something and even with food, Gracie has just continued down. In time, you will learn and feel comfortable shooting a dropping number and you'll know how she will respond.
Of course, we don't shoot below 50 :-D if she were to give you a 47 at +12, then you would not feed, retest in 15 mins, and if she's still in the 40s, feed one tsp of LC and retest in 30.

The +10 and +11 numbers are great to get when you can because then you know if she's dropping or getting a second dip. Lantus and levemir are known for these second dips at the end of a cycle. The difference between a second dip and a drop is with a second dip, she would have nadired earlier, come up, then back down but the second dip will be a little higher number than the nadir. With a dropping number, the numbers just keep coming down from one PS to the next so the lower number is at the subsequent PS. Once a caregiver knows their cat's onset, nadir, duration and other patterns, shooting dropping numbers can let you take great advantage of overlap and carryover to get those nice, long flat curves :mrgreen:

Once a CG has had an experience like you did today, I like to see them shoot the green numbers on time with a regular dose (unless the number is close to 50 and falling). I've had CGs stall to the point where they had to skip. I'm generally not a fan of reduced doses because the depot will often result in a cycle like it would without a reduced dose. The effects of a reduced dose are usually seen later in the cycle or the next cycle.

Please let us know if you have any questions. I hope this has been helpful info.
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

Hi Elise,
Is that what it is? Yes, I'm thankful she's not dipping too low but I'm now wondering if I should have given her the full dose this AM. Guess I can't change it now.

As for what we were talking about yesterday.. I did some more looking and see what you meant by the labels on the cans. I did end up calling Nutro and getting some as fed values for their foods and was actually pleasantly surprised with most of the results. But they still don't add up to the ones on the list. I figured out my discrepancy with Weruva (not using the as fed values) and have chosen a few of their products as well. I have got to put some weight on my little diabetic girl and take some off my civies.. so now I'm looking into how to go about that huge task.. Hope you're having a good day!
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

What helped me the first time shooting low was, Julie directed me to spread sheets where low shots were given.
Its really hard to wrap your head around the concept of shooting low to stay low, especially when you see how far a cat can come down from higher numbers. The main thing when shooting low is being able to monitor. I just shot my lowest 53 on 8/28 pm, although I did at hc to his reg pmps meal in hope to get a good surf going.
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

I just posted another list that is current as of last month. Not all carb info is there but I'm glad Heken has added that to her list. Go to Tanya'scrf.org
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

Please be sure to read my post above but I forgot to add that for shooting tonight, if you only stalled 30 minutes, just shoot at your regular time. :-D
 
Re: 09/02 AMPS 91, +1 159, +2 125

Hi Marjie! Sorry, I didn't see your post originally. I think I have the SS updated correctly now. I considered staying up to get +10 and +11 numbers last night but something told me I was going to have an early morning today. I wasn't sure which way she was going to go so I got a few hours sleep and got back up. Thanks for the advice, I hope that I can shoot the green numbers the next time they come at PS. She does seem to just continue to rise now. Thanks for all the helpful info!

Thanks Darin. Yes she did that with me today as well.. In fact it may have been yours she referred me to. It is helpful and it does make you realize that more people are going through the same thing (or have gone through the same thing). I just have to keep telling myself that she has to get low to get off the insulin!

Elise, I am on my way to check that out now.. Thanks!
 
I completely understand....it's hard to get up for those tests when you are tired. I'm not suggesting you do it every cycle or get up just to do it but it's something to keep in mind to grab when you can. If you are just awake early, grab a +10/+11. But get your sleep when you can because the dance can be exhausting.

SS looks superb! Thanks!!
 
Thank you again for your help, Marje (Sorry about the misspelling earlier)! I am fortunate to have some time off for a few days in a row so I will use that time wisely next time when she has a less than active day cycle. I can actually grab a +11 tomorrow morning before work! Thanks for your help with the SS too. It does make sense to have that information available to everyone (and myself) for future reference!
 
Elise,
Thanks for that website info! That's a lot of helpful information for feline nutrition! I did see some Nutro numbers on there and they are the numbers I have come up with! I think they have changed their formula (for the better). They've decreased their carbs a lot. I just have to be careful with the fat too for my chunky kitties.
 
Max has gained over half a pound since he was diagnosed with me having to feed him to prevent deductions. My original goal was to keep his weight the same or lose half a pound. It had been some time since Helen updated her food list. I helped with her original project but this last time she did it all on her own. I don't know why or how she did it as many of the manufacturers aren't real cooperative. When I would call Purina they would only supply about 4 at a time and make me wait for the nutritionist to crunch the numbers. :roll: I was pleasantly surprised to see that Helen included carbs this time. In the past it only had protein, phosphorus, fat, and sodium.
 
Booger has gained over a pound since diagnosis.. thankfully but she doesn't look "fit". She's at 9.5 pounds but she's starting to look "fat" if you will. All the more reason to switch her food. She went from looking pencil think to looking balloon fat. I've got to get a hold on her diabetes and nutrition. Think I'm gonna need lots of coffee. It's a good thing I really don't mind all the research and actually find it quite enjoyable.

I wish I would have asked for some more info from Nutro today. I only asked for a few that I was interested in but they were more than happy to provide the information. The next time I call I'll ask for some more (phosphorous, sodium and whatever else she is needing) and I'll pass it along to you so she can add it if she wishes.
 
You're welcome. :-D

Remember that once you get any as-fed or dry matter basis data from them, it has to be plugged into a calculator to convert to % of calories from the particular constituent.

Janet (from the famous Janet and Binky) did an excel worksheet calculator that allows you to plug the numbers in to get the % calories from carbs, fat, protein and also the mgP/100 kcal.
 
Hmmm, thank you. I've been doing the calculation as per the catinfo site.. I shall check out Janet's calculator you sent! So I see she is using the same conversion and plugging it into her ready made spreadsheet.. awesome!! Thanks for the link, this will help me greatly!
 
looks like today's been a bit of a break for both of you. Just fyi, when you reduce a dose because you weren't comfortable shooting the preshot number, or you can't monitor, or for some other reason, you return back to your regular dose with the next shot. So tonight's dose would be back to 1.75u.

A dose change also resets your "count meter", ie, when you refer to the protocol to decide if you should increase/hold/decrease a dose, it says something like "6-10 consecutive cycles." When you go back to 1.75u tonight, that becomes cycle 1 in that count.

it is Darin's post that I linked here - I'd included the spreadsheets of some cats to show how the cycle often plays out if you shoot the full dose into the normal number. It's all good that you reduced, however - it gives you data that helps you know how Booger responds in this situation - you had a stall of 30 minutes and a reduced dose. I suspect the rise in her numbers today is part bounce, part from the reduced amount of insulin this morning. She'll get back on track again before too long. :-D
 
Ok, thanks Julie. I was wondering about her dose. I know it says to hold her dose longer because she's new to numbers under 100 but I wasn't sure how that worked. I didn't know if you started that with the first number under 100. Obviously I wasn't ready to increase as she's JUST started dipping her toes into new waters, but I was curious as to when. So we start over then... Count 6-10 new cycles unless she pulls a fast one on us and dips down below 50 (because she's a newly diagnosed diabetic then we'd reduce, right?) I think I've got that part now...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top