? 06/30/18 Squallie AMPS 206, +6.30/99, PMPS 144

[Squalliesmom]

Yesterday

Squallie's AMPS is very high, for him. Should I go ahead and give him his full 2.25 dose? I can't guarantee how well he will eat, his mouth is very swollen and when he tries to eat he also tries to paw at his mouth. I just gave him some bupe, so hoping that helps. But right now my biggest concern is how much insulin to give him.

Also - how do I get pills in him? I'm afraid tp put any pressure on his mouth to get him to open it!

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Do you have any baby food? If not, I'd put his usual food in a blender with some stock or water to make it really smooth and easy for Squallie to eat.

I've been in the spot where I'm trying to get food into a cat that's post dental and numbers are dropping. Not fun. I'd consider given a BCS dose until you're sure that eating is an option.

Also, check with your vet. Clavamox does come in injection form. Maybe you can pick that up so you're not having to deal with pilling.

 

[Beenie (GA)]

Glad Sienne gave you dose advise

Pilling a cat isn't easy but I was successful with Ming by coating the pill with cream cheese. Popped it in and he would swallow it (its a little messy but no biggie). I think because of the thickness and texture of the cream cheese it makes it hard for them to spit out.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Do you have any baby food? If not, I'd put his usual food in a blender with some stock or water to make it really smooth and easy for Squallie to eat.

I've been in the spot where I'm trying to get food into a cat that's post dental and numbers are dropping. Not fun. I'd consider given a BCS dose until you're sure that eating is an option.

Also, check with your vet. Clavamox does come in injection form. Maybe you can pick that up so you're not having to deal with pilling.

Thanks, Sienne. I do have baby food, that's mostly what he ate last night. I don't know how much baby food he needs to eat to be okay for his shot. I will ask about the injectable clavamox, but I have a feeling he's going to tell me I should have let Squallie have the Convenia, which is not an option. I will check with my regular vet, too, he would probably be a little more accommodating.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Glad Sienne gave you dose advise

Pilling a cat isn't easy but I was successful with Ming by coating the pill with cream cheese. Popped it in and he would swallow it (its a little messy but no biggie). I think because of the thickness and texture of the cream cheese it makes it hard for them to spit out.

Thanks for the idea, Michelle! I'll get some cream cheese and give it a try!

 

[Beenie (GA)]

Lucy I just read yesterday's thread. I didn't realize Squallie had an "eventful" dental. Injectable meds might be a better option. I'm sure his mouth is still sore so trying to get a pill in seems rough. Lots of feel better vines for you and Squallie

 

[Ella & Rusty & Stu(GA)]

Hi Lucy,
Just catching up here. I'm sure that it will take a few days for our super senior Squallie to get back to normal after having almost all of his teeth removed. Will he eat baby food with lots of water in it? Something he can just lap at? Maybe try the "liver shake"? I think that I would give half your usual dose of insulin, just to be safe. Who wouldn't feel like eating after major mouth surgery!
Sending lots of vines for your boy. Don't know what to say about trying to get pills into him. Rusty won't take anything that involves messing with his mouth, so we went the Convenia route. It turned out to be ok.

p.s. I just saw Sienne's post. She recommends a BCS shot, too.

Liver shake recipe:
THE '~LIVER SHAKE~' FOR SICK CATS

This liquid food is appropriate for cats suffering from conditions where they are eating very little or not at all such as anemias, leukemias, deficiency states with symptoms of lethargy, listlessness, and weakness.

1 cup RAW LIVER (BEEF, or CHICKEN)
1 cup FRESH CARROT JUICE or V-8, or Tomatoe Juice
1/4 cup *FRESH FILTERED WATER
1 RAW EGG YOLK
1 tsp.KELP POWDER OR SPIRULINA


COMBINE AND MIX IN A BLENDER UNTIL LIQUEFIED. (Note: it will be frothy)

Dosage:

Administer 10cc daily 3-6 times a day. (6Occ per day max)

Some cats will need to be force-fed with a syringe, while others will drink it out of a bowl.

This food has a sweet and salty taste, and the energetic properties of tonifying (energy boosting), warming and stimulating and supports the kidneys, spleen, liver and stomach.

This drink is a complete dinner for a sick cat until they feel good enough to eat by themselves again.

*Substitute rice water if the cat has diarrhea. Rice water
is made by boiling white rice (2 Tbsp) with water (1cup) for 30 minutes.
This liquid aids digestion and assimilation and inhibits the symptoms of diarrhea.

Deborah C. Mallu,DVM
Holistic Veterinary Care
215 Disney lane
Sedona, AZ 86336
Tel 520-282-5651
Fax 520-282-3586
Email canyonct@sedona.net


FYI -Dr. Mallu was asked about forwarding the Liver Shake recipe on to allo vets, and she said to credit it to Dr. Ihor Basko in Kauai, Hawaii

(This recipe originally posted a long time ago in the FDMB by Ann & French Fry). Sina (@HWright ) swears by it.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

I'd have to go back and read through Gabby's SS, but I think Clavamox comes in a long acting form, as well. My vet used it after a dental several years ago when Gabby had extractions. Perhaps pointing out to the vet that Convenia's only indication is for skin infections and it's use for anything oral is off-label may end the discussion?

 

[Squalliesmom]

I'd have to go back and read through Gabby's SS, but I think Clavamox comes in a long acting form, as well. My vet used it after a dental several years ago when Gabby had extractions. Perhaps pointing out to the vet that Convenia's only indication is for skin infections and it's use for anything oral is off-label may end the discussion?

I just talked to the vet, he called to check up on Squallie. He's pushing for a Convenia shot, but that just scares me too much. I asked about injectable Clavamox and he told me that was the Convenia - I don't believe that.

 

[carfurby (GA)]

I hope Squallie will feel better soon and be able to eat for you. I hope you can figure out something with the meds. Sending prayers.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Okay, he's eaten about 3/4 jar (2.5 oz jar) of baby food and maybe 1/4 can (3 oz can) of his regular food. Is that enough for his full insulin dose or should I still go with a reduced dose?

 

[carfurby (GA)]

I think I'd give the reduced dose. You don't know how well he'll eat today and it's better to be safe.

 

[Squalliesmom]

I think I'd give the reduced dose. You don't know how well he'll eat today and it's better to be safe.

Very true! Reduced dose it is, then. Thanks, Carla!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Hi Lucy,
Just catching up here. I'm sure that it will take a few days for our super senior Squallie to get back to normal after having almost all of his teeth removed. Will he eat baby food with lots of water in it? Something he can just lap at? Maybe try the "liver shake"? I think that I would give half your usual dose of insulin, just to be safe. Who wouldn't feel like eating after major mouth surgery!
Sending lots of vines for your boy. Don't know what to say about trying to get pills into him. Rusty won't take anything that involves messing with his mouth, so we went the Convenia route. It turned out to be ok.

p.s. I just saw Sienne's post. She recommends a BCS shot, too.

Liver shake recipe:
THE '~LIVER SHAKE~' FOR SICK CATS

This liquid food is appropriate for cats suffering from conditions where they are eating very little or not at all such as anemias, leukemias, deficiency states with symptoms of lethargy, listlessness, and weakness.

1 cup RAW LIVER (BEEF, or CHICKEN)
1 cup FRESH CARROT JUICE or V-8, or Tomatoe Juice
1/4 cup *FRESH FILTERED WATER
1 RAW EGG YOLK
1 tsp.KELP POWDER OR SPIRULINA


COMBINE AND MIX IN A BLENDER UNTIL LIQUEFIED. (Note: it will be frothy)

Dosage:

Administer 10cc daily 3-6 times a day. (6Occ per day max)

Some cats will need to be force-fed with a syringe, while others will drink it out of a bowl.

This food has a sweet and salty taste, and the energetic properties of tonifying (energy boosting), warming and stimulating and supports the kidneys, spleen, liver and stomach.

This drink is a complete dinner for a sick cat until they feel good enough to eat by themselves again.

*Substitute rice water if the cat has diarrhea. Rice water
is made by boiling white rice (2 Tbsp) with water (1cup) for 30 minutes.
This liquid aids digestion and assimilation and inhibits the symptoms of diarrhea.

Deborah C. Mallu,DVM
Holistic Veterinary Care
215 Disney lane
Sedona, AZ 86336
Tel 520-282-5651
Fax 520-282-3586
Email canyonct@sedona.net


FYI -Dr. Mallu was asked about forwarding the Liver Shake recipe on to allo vets, and she said to credit it to Dr. Ihor Basko in Kauai, Hawaii

(This recipe originally posted a long time ago in the FDMB by Ann & French Fry). Sina (@HWright ) swears by it.

Thanks, Ella! I was thinking about the liver shake, too, thinking I'd give it a try.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

It was clindamyacin, not clavamox. Sorry.

 

[Beth 73]

Lucy and Squallie .... can you crush and dilute pill in small amount water then slowly syringe ? This is my go to . Does vet have a/d food ?? Good to get a few cans if not already . Continued easy recovery over our sweet buddy Squallie . You and he are well able to get over this initial hump , Lucy

 

[Beth 73]

PS .... I don’t llike Convenia either , Lucy . Don’t like that it can’t be stopped if not agreeing with one of my guys .

 

[Osha]

Sending feel better vines to Squallie. I also refused the Covenia. My vet wasn't happy with me, but we need to do what we know is best for our cats.

 

[CassAndGordy(GA)]

I avoid Covenia too. I told my newest vets my thoughts on it (can't be undone & onky really works on skin things) and she said my reasoning was valid. She also mentioned to me that she has never seen a negative reaction from it before. But its an ECID scenario.

Hopefully Squallie starts feeling up to muster soon!

 

[Doodles & Karen]

Glad to hear Squallie is home and did well at the dentist. I also had to give clavamox and bupe after Leo's FME The next few days might be a little tough on you both but Squallie will recover and get back to eating normally. Leo didn't do well on bupe and I had to start halving the dose and eventually stop it because it just knocked him out. ECID and most are fine on it. We switched to Onsior which is a 3 day once a day tiny pill and he did much better on that. Clavamox can upset their tummy but not always. If you have a probiotic it might be a good idea to add that. Try not to worry about his BG's, better to run a little high until he's back to eating normally. Loads of vines for your sweet boy and for you.

 

[Olive & Paula]

Clavamox and clindamycin come in liquid. It's what I always use for dental/mouth issues so I can just squirt in from the side.

 

[Tracey&Jones (GA)]

Vines for Squallie today. Quick recovery and eat your fuds kitty.

 

[LizzieInTexas]

Poor Squallie

I highly recommend the liver shake too. It really gave Gizmo a boost when I gave it to him. I mixed up a batch and put it in a shaker bottle in the fridge for a couple if days and then froze the rest in ice cube trays and transferred it to a zip lock bag and back in the freezer.

You can find the kelp or spirulina at GNC (~$10). I used generic tomato juice. Cost for everything was less than $20.

 

[Jan Radar (GA)]

When Radar had 7 or 8 teeth removed a few summers ago, he lived on baby food for about 10 days. His mouth was really really sore. Poor little boy I worried the whole time about whether I was getting enough calories into him to support the insulin. At that time I didn't know about a/d from Hills. According to the food chart the carb load is only 12% It is one of my go tos these days when Radar won't eat because it's made for animals that are recovering from something. I would suggest that you try to get some to give Squallie.

for you and your sweet boy as he continues to recover.

 

[HWright]

Hi Lucy. Just catching up so apologies for this being one of those days (actually been quite a few of them lately).

Liver shake a real plus. Got Azalea and Bo through several crises and in addition to fuds bland foods like baby food mentioned earlier or slurried foods with supplements etc til they were eating better on their own. It’s also orally syringable and you just might find that a few cc’s will whet appetite to eat more on own.

Are you giving Squallie probiotics or plain kefir? And aside from the probiotic benefits especially during AB, kefir seems to help soothe gi much like SEB, which might be another thought for Squallie.

Idk what to add to mentions about antibiotics except that I found clavamox oral liquid to be very bitter (mouth foaming) and hard on their tummies.

Clindamycin injectable (idk if it’s available as a three-day potency but it is available as daily injectable. And even skinny old Bo who, during flares of what was thought to be a nasal or sinus tumor) tolerated the injections much better than anything oral. I still would do probiotics or kefir too. Plus and please folks correct me if my memory is off: clindamycin targets infections in bone as well?

I’m with you on nixing convenia. My cats all have no convenia in their charts. I just don’t want to take the risk. And the other day I wrote it twice in big letters on Spunky’s surgical intake form. And as an aside, I couldn’t believe it when yesterday my AC suggested convenia for Spunky. Grrrr! (Btw: surgeon holding off on AB’s bc he’s both AB wary and doesn’t want to prescribe before getting the ear pus and polyp studies back). And he is all for immune support vs over prescribing ab’s.

Hang in there and mega hugs and vines for you and Mr. Squallie Bear. Squallie: eat for your mom, sez the clowder here, too.

 

[tiffmaxee]

Hi Lucy. I’m just catching up too. If you can get him to eat 1 1/2 jars of baby food each day he will be fine. When Max had surgery that was all he would eat. All mine have liked Gerbers which is around 100 calories a jar and no chewing needed.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Hi Lucy. I’m just catching up too. If you can get him to eat 1 1/2 jars of baby food each day he will be fine. When Max had surgery that was all he would eat. All mine have liked Gerbers which is around 100 calories a jar and no chewing needed.

Thanks, Elise. I'm definitely not getting that much baby food into him. He starts off hungry but it must hurt him to eat because he paws at his mouth and then stops eating. Even with the baby food. He's hardly eaten a half-dozen bites of his dinner tonight, and wouldn't eat any of the baby food. Maybe he doesn't like the flavor.

ETA: I managed to get about 1/3 jar of baby food in him by spoon-feeding it to him. I consider this a huge accomplishment!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Many thanks to everybody for your help and support. Squallie is still having a really hard time eating, and is still pawing at his mouth every time he tries to eat. I think he's hungry, but just gives up because it hurts. If he's not eating better tomorrow I am taking him back in to the vet.

I didn't know how much insulin to give him tonight. I gave him 1.75U this morning and it dropped him almost 150 pts,; tonight his PMPS was lower so I only gave him 1.25U. Hope I did the right thing.

 

[tiffmaxee]

Also try finger feeding. Just give a little at a time spread out every few hours. One of mine wouldn’t eat chicken. All liked veal but they don’t make it any more. Ham is popular. Even a jar will be ok for a day or two.

 

[tiffmaxee]

Many thanks to everybody for your help and support. Squallie is still having a really hard time eating, and is still pawing at his mouth every time he tries to eat. I think he's hungry, but just gives up because it hurts. If he's not eating better tomorrow I am taking him back in to the vet.

I didn't know how much insulin to give him tonight. I gave him 1.75U this morning and it dropped him almost 150 pts,; tonight his PMPS was lower so I only gave him 1.25U. Hope I did the right thing.

I had to skip a dose with Max after his dental and he just lost one tooth. I think it was good to give the dose you gave.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Also try finger feeding. Just give a little at a time spread out every few hours. One of mine wouldn’t eat chicken. All liked veal but they don’t make it any more. Ham is popular. Even a jar will be ok for a day or two.

Thanks! Yes, he seems to prefer the ham over the other flavors. I might have gotten a jar into him over the course of the day. Maybe. I hope. And I'm not finished trying, yet, lol.

I had to skip a dose with Max after his dental and he just lost one tooth. I think it was good to give the dose you gave.

Thanks! Right now I'd rather have him a little on the high side than have to worry about getting carbs into him if he drops too low!

 

[Squalliesmom]

I'd have to go back and read through Gabby's SS, but I think Clavamox comes in a long acting form, as well. My vet used it after a dental several years ago when Gabby had extractions. Perhaps pointing out to the vet that Convenia's only indication is for skin infections and it's use for anything oral is off-label may end the discussion?

I tried. This guy just keeps telling me how successfully it has been used to treat dental conditions in cats and can't understand why I don't want Squall to have it. Basically, I like this dentist, but we are worlds apart on the use of Convenia!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Hi Lucy. Just catching up so apologies for this being one of those days (actually been quite a few of them lately).

Liver shake a real plus. Got Azalea and Bo through several crises and in addition to fuds bland foods like baby food mentioned earlier or slurried foods with supplements etc til they were eating better on their own. It’s also orally syringable and you just might find that a few cc’s will whet appetite to eat more on own.

Are you giving Squallie probiotics or plain kefir? And aside from the probiotic benefits especially during AB, kefir seems to help soothe gi much like SEB, which might be another thought for Squallie.

Idk what to add to mentions about antibiotics except that I found clavamox oral liquid to be very bitter (mouth foaming) and hard on their tummies.

Clindamycin injectable (idk if it’s available as a three-day potency but it is available as daily injectable. And even skinny old Bo who, during flares of what was thought to be a nasal or sinus tumor) tolerated the injections much better than anything oral. I still would do probiotics or kefir too. Plus and please folks correct me if my memory is off: clindamycin targets infections in bone as well?

I’m with you on nixing convenia. My cats all have no convenia in their charts. I just don’t want to take the risk. And the other day I wrote it twice in big letters on Spunky’s surgical intake form. And as an aside, I couldn’t believe it when yesterday my AC suggested convenia for Spunky. Grrrr! (Btw: surgeon holding off on AB’s bc he’s both AB wary and doesn’t want to prescribe before getting the ear pus and polyp studies back). And he is all for immune support vs over prescribing ab’s.

Hang in there and mega hugs and vines for you and Mr. Squallie Bear. Squallie: eat for your mom, sez the clowder here, too.

Thanks, Sina.

I have ordered spirulina, it will be here Monday, then I can make him the liver shake.

My regular vet understands my issues with Convenia - all mine have "NO CONVENIA!" in their charts, too. This dentist doesn't get it, but that's okay, I'm standing my ground, lol.

 

[Squalliesmom]

When Radar had 7 or 8 teeth removed a few summers ago, he lived on baby food for about 10 days. His mouth was really really sore. Poor little boy I worried the whole time about whether I was getting enough calories into him to support the insulin. At that time I didn't know about a/d from Hills. According to the food chart the carb load is only 12% It is one of my go tos these days when Radar won't eat because it's made for animals that are recovering from something. I would suggest that you try to get some to give Squallie.

for you and your sweet boy as he continues to recover.

Thanks, Jan.
I just ordered some Hill's a/d, it will be here Monday. How much were you managing to get into Radar each day? I'm so worried Squallie isn't getting enough!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Lucy and Squallie .... can you crush and dilute pill in small amount water then slowly syringe ? This is my go to . Does vet have a/d food ?? Good to get a few cans if not already . Continued easy recovery over our sweet buddy Squallie . You and he are well able to get over this initial hump , Lucy

Thanks, Beth.
Just ordered some Hill's a/d, and some spirulina for the liver shake! Fingers crossed!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Poor Squallie

I highly recommend the liver shake too. It really gave Gizmo a boost when I gave it to him. I mixed up a batch and put it in a shaker bottle in the fridge for a couple if days and then froze the rest in ice cube trays and transferred it to a zip lock bag and back in the freezer.

You can find the kelp or spirulina at GNC (~$10). I used generic tomato juice. Cost for everything was less than $20.

Thanks, Lizzie.
I just ordered the spirulina, got everything else ready to go!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Vines for Squallie today. Quick recovery and eat your fuds kitty.

Thanks, Tracey.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Clavamox and clindamycin come in liquid. It's what I always use for dental/mouth issues so I can just squirt in from the side.

I may have to ask my regular vet. The dentist just keeps pushing the Convenia, and that's just not going to happen.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Glad to hear Squallie is home and did well at the dentist. I also had to give clavamox and bupe after Leo's FME The next few days might be a little tough on you both but Squallie will recover and get back to eating normally. Leo didn't do well on bupe and I had to start halving the dose and eventually stop it because it just knocked him out. ECID and most are fine on it. We switched to Onsior which is a 3 day once a day tiny pill and he did much better on that. Clavamox can upset their tummy but not always. If you have a probiotic it might be a good idea to add that. Try not to worry about his BG's, better to run a little high until he's back to eating normally. Loads of vines for your sweet boy and for you.

Thanks, Karen.
Did you give Leo Clavamox pills? I don't k now how to get pills into Squallie without risking messing up his sutures. I usually give him pills wrapped in a thin layer of pill pocket, but he can't chew the right now so that isn't working.

 

[Squalliesmom]

I avoid Covenia too. I told my newest vets my thoughts on it (can't be undone & onky really works on skin things) and she said my reasoning was valid. She also mentioned to me that she has never seen a negative reaction from it before. But its an ECID scenario.

Hopefully Squallie starts feeling up to muster soon!

Thanks, Cassie!

 

[Squalliesmom]

Sending feel better vines to Squallie. I also refused the Covenia. My vet wasn't happy with me, but we need to do what we know is best for our cats.

Thanks, Amanda!
My regular vet understands (or tolerates, lol) my issues with Convenia, but this dentist doesn't get it.

 

[Beth 73]

Thanks, Beth.
Just ordered some Hill's a/d, and some spirulina for the liver shake! Fingers crossed!

And prayers , hugs and lots of love continuing you and Squallie’s way

 

[LizzieInTexas]

How is Squallie doing? Hope things are better and he is eating.

Here is the data sheet for Hills a/d

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WbPwNp7Qtwlc_dksi6jfJOBYxcVcWKgB/view?usp=drivesdk

 

[Doodles & Karen]

Did you give Leo Clavamox pills

No we had it in liquid form. The Onsior was a super small pill that I crushed with a bit of water and syringed. Did they give Squallie a nerve block shot? Not sure what the name of that med is but it lasted 72 hours. Leo hardly ate for the first 5 days which they say is unusual but they also put a feeding tube in. Once the feeding tube came out he started eating more each day on his own.

 

[Squalliesmom]

How is Squallie doing? Hope things are better and he is eating.

Here is the data sheet for Hills a/d

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WbPwNp7Qtwlc_dksi6jfJOBYxcVcWKgB/view?usp=drivesdk

Thanks, Lizzie.
He still isn't eating. One side of his face feels warm to me, so I'm concerned that he's starting to get an infection, and the swelling is still massive. He did finally use the litter box, which was a relief. The dentist is supposed to call this morning so I'll see what he has to say.

 

[Squalliesmom]

No we had it in liquid form. The Onsior was a super small pill that I crushed with a bit of water and syringed. Did they give Squallie a nerve block shot? Not sure what the name of that med is but it lasted 72 hours. Leo hardly ate for the first 5 days which they say is unusual but they also put a feeding tube in. Once the feeding tube came out he started eating more each day on his own.

No, I don't think they gave him a nerve block. He's getting bupe every 12 hrs. I can't usually use liquid meds with him because, if he thinks it tastes bad, he just lets it run out of his mouth. I'm afraid Squallie may end up with a feeding tube; he just takes a few licks at his food, paws at his mouth, then refuses any more food. I think it's also creating food aversions, because he just turns aweay from his favorites, now. He won't even eat the baby food. I'm pretty much at my wits end.

 

[Olive & Paula]

Orbax also comes in liquid. It's what my vet gives mostly when I ask for liquid. Sometimes they say the clavamox would be better in a particular instance. But those 2 are what I've been given the most.

 

[Squalliesmom]

Orbax also comes in liquid. It's what my vet gives mostly when I ask for liquid. Sometimes they say the clavamox would be better in a particular instance. But those 2 are what I've been given the most.

Thanks, Paula! Does the Orbax usually cause any stomach issues? The Clavamox gives him diarrhea, I know.

 

[carfurby (GA)]

I know a feeding tube sounds bad, but it will also allow you to get his meds into him if he needs to have one. Sending prayers.

 

[Olive & Paula]

Thanks, Paula! Does the Orbax usually cause any stomach issues? The Clavamox gives him diarrhea, I know.

It never has on my cats. The clavamox didn't give Smokey diarrhea until day 4. Olive got it and it didn't cause any issues with her. Since we didn't know if it was a problem with her, I was willing to try it. Normally I stay away from it, but vet said it was the better choice that time for Smokey.

I think but don't remember it's been awhile but orbax was once a day. I always gave it at meal time because it was easier to remember to give it.