06/13 Butters AMPS 72/+3 70/+8 79/PMPS 79

[Butters & Lyla]

Last Post

Today is day three of Butters's seven-day course of antibiotic ear drops. I cleaned a bunch of gunky stuff out of her ears this morning, and she is still getting zyrtec. In spite of this, she is still constantly scratching at her ears, neck, mouth and face. The ear scratching and head shaking has been going on for months, when I think back to it.

From what I gathered, the vet seems to think there could be an underlying allergy problem. He wants to do a consult with a boarded nutritionist and figure out a food trial for her. I haven't had enough time with him to ask him more about the allergies that he suspects and why this and not skin testing. I'm still learning. I want him to focus his efforts on getting her in for the echo and dental first, so don't want to push too hard on other things.

All that aside, she is splitting her time today between hanging out by the open window and snuggling on my lap, so I think life can't be all that terrible. I'm struggling to test her BG because she is hating having her ears touched, and I think the ear solution is making it hard to get a blood drop even though I cleaned off the outside of her ears after. But it looks like in spite of all that is going on, we are 13 cycles of all green numbers. I had previously been getting all kinds of blue numbers and I can't figure out what changed to keep her <100. I feed her at the same times every day. Most of the greens in the past 13 cycles have been >80, though.

Surf safely, kitties.

 

[Pamela & Amethyst]

Healing hugs and prayers

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Oh Lyla, I feel awful for her that she's scratching all over. Poor baby. I hope you can get in for the echo and dental soon so then they can start to figure out what this scratching is all about, Her numbers look great though. ♥

 

[carfurby (GA)]

Sending prayers.

 

[thebigfuzz]

Hmmm…I wonder if it may be something in the EZ complete? I think you started raw in December, but remember a few different supplements over the past few months… Egg yolk, probiotics, taurine and a few others too right?

 

[FrostD]

Beautiful day for Butters! Hopefully ears feel better soon

 

[Red & Rover (GA)]

Tagging @Olive & Paula for you. She has a civvie with ear allergies and has run the gamut.

 

[Katherine&Ruby]

Hmmm…I wonder if it may be something in the EZ complete? I think you started raw in December, but remember a few different supplements over the past few months… Egg yolk, probiotics, taurine and a few others too right?

There are a few ingredients in EZC that could be the culprit, like eggs and shellfish (I know Butters eats chicken without any problem, so the chicken liver in it shouldn't be a concern). But you also rotate her meal completers, right, Lyla?

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Another thought, what type of litter are you using? I've seen allergies to that too. Chicken and beef are common allergens, but you don't feed them that often. Tanya asked a good question about the EZ Complete but am I not remembering correctly she wasn't a fan of TC Feline?

I have yet to see a good skin test for allergies. I have just heard of one allergy test (saliva) that is supposed to be OK, but my vet said she didn't know of any. There have also been some dodgy tests out there. There was a test a couple years ago that a few people here tried, but some vets tested it by sending in the saliva from the same cat multiple times - and got different answers. Company went out of business shortly thereafter.

Glad to see I didn't have to do the cycle count this time.

 

[Olive & Paula]

Oh yes Tripper had awful ears her entire life. Been through the ear drops, short term steriods, deep ear cleanings every couple of months. Primary vet was against allergy testing.

She is such a picky eater doing food elimination trial would take way to long and she would starve herself before she would eat.

About 2 years ago she tore up her ears and both sides of neck so bad. I rushed her to urgent care thinking she needed stitches to put neck back together. Of course they wanted more ear drops and steriods done. My gut was telling me it was the dry food my husband was free feeding her.

Anyways I told that doctor to do allergy testing as I had enough of the "bandaid" treatment and wanted a more permanent resolution . Of course they said it's not totally accurate unless it's the scratch skin testing. I didn't care, it will be a starting point for us, so Dr agreed and drew the blood to send out.

In the mean time, I removed all the other food from her and warned husband he was not to feed her. Only I will feed her until we get answers. I started giving her the Vital Essentials she likes, exclusively (I got lacks in it since no more diabetic in house).

By the time results came in 3 weeks later, her ears and neck were healed, not scratching, ears were clean. The results were allergic to pork, soybean, milk as well as most of the pollens and some trees. So the dry food Clean Protein, even though chicken flavor has pork. Most canned foods have meat by products which are usually from pork.

Hers ears have been clean and scratch free (until this week). She gets transdermal med for thyroid which started 2 weeks ago. Which might now be irritating her. Also trying rx z/d food because of the vomiting she was doing. New doctor thinks it's from the pancreatitis inflammation and suspect IBS she has had since October and previous vet dismissed saying it was the oral thyroid medicine causing the vomiting, he is against transdermal methimazole. I really had to be adamant about getting it.

Now I am getting her off the Vital Essentials (I don't like the larger pieces of bone I'm finding in it). Using the brand Meaty Mates and the rx food now. Others cats get Canada Fresh canned food, sometimes Tripper get some.

Little hijack here. The drug methimazole has been linked to causing pancreatitis. I think in late 2019. A pancreatitis warning is now required to be listed as an adverse reaction.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

Hmmm…I wonder if it may be something in the EZ complete? I think you started raw in December, but remember a few different supplements over the past few months… Egg yolk, probiotics, taurine and a few others too right?

You're right that she started eating homemade raw with EZ Complete in December. I tried egg yolk only briefly, but there is yolk in the EZ Complete. Taurine has been since January because of the dilated cardiomyopathy. I started the probiotic actually because I told the vet about her ongoing scratching and head shaking at a vet visit in March, and he recommended trying that to see if it would help. She also gets b12 and I add a pinch of ground flax into two of her meals daily. Flax was the fibre used in her canned food, too.
So: taurine, flax, b12, probiotic, and omega 3 oil are added to the EZ Complete and raw meat.
She has been shaking her head and scratching since winter. She started losing her fur in spots maybe a month ago. And then in the last couple of weeks she has started to scratch her skin off . All of this said, she is far from looking horrific. But I don't want it to get to that point.

Another thought, what type of litter are you using? I've seen allergies to that too.

I didn't think of litter as a possibility. I use Okocat and have for years. It is made from wood pulp byproduct and nothing else, and is very low dust.

am I not remembering correctly she wasn't a fan of TC Feline?

You are correct. But then a few months later, I actually did manage to get her to eat the Elk I made with it by adding raw egg yolk and omega 3 fish oil. So I bought some more of it recently and it is in my cupboard as I planned to try it again. But with her vet suggesting we may need to do a food trial, I thought it might be best to stick to a few proteins and the EZ Complete right now, in the hope that I could maybe use the TC Feline for a trial. Not sure.

There are a few ingredients in EZC that could be the culprit, like eggs and shellfish (I know Butters eats chicken without any problem, so the chicken liver in it shouldn't be a concern). But you also rotate her meal completers, right, Lyla?

Nope. I tried but EZC is the only one she would ever eat reliably. She never really had eggs before but her canned food had green lipped mussel and flax in it (as well as chicken) and she was fine with it.

Glad to see I didn't have to do the cycle count this time.

It feels wrong to shave her insulin tomorrow when she is so obviously unwell, but I seem to have learned to count her cycles so I should follow through with a reduction...unless she goes higher tonight!

 

[Butters & Lyla]

Oh yes Tripper had awful ears her entire life. Been through the ear drops, short term steriods, deep ear cleanings every couple of months. Primary vet was against allergy testing.

She is such a picky eater doing food elimination trial would take way to long and she would starve herself before she would eat.

About 2 years ago she tore up her ears and both sides of neck so bad. I rushed her to urgent care thinking she needed stitches to put neck back together. Of course they wanted more ear drops and steriods done. My gut was telling me it was the dry food my husband was free feeding her.

Anyways I told that doctor to do allergy testing as I had enough of the "bandaid" treatment and wanted a more permanent resolution . Of course they said it's not totally accurate unless it's the scratch skin testing. I didn't care, it will be a starting point for us, so Dr agreed and drew the blood to send out.

In the mean time, I removed all the other food from her and warned husband he was not to feed her. Only I will feed her until we get answers. I started giving her the Vital Essentials she likes, exclusively (I got lacks in it since no more diabetic in house).

By the time results came in 3 weeks later, her ears and neck were healed, not scratching, ears were clean. The results were allergic to pork, soybean, milk as well as most of the pollens and some trees. So the dry food Clean Protein, even though chicken flavor has pork. Most canned foods have meat by products which are usually from pork.

Hers ears have been clean and scratch free (until this week). She gets transdermal med for thyroid which started 2 weeks ago. Which might now be irritating her. Also trying rx z/d food because of the vomiting she was doing. New doctor thinks it's from the pancreatitis inflammation and suspect IBS she has had since October and previous vet dismissed saying it was the oral thyroid medicine causing the vomiting, he is against transdermal methimazole. I really had to be adamant about getting it.

Now I am getting her off the Vital Essentials (I don't like the larger pieces of bone I'm finding in it). Using the brand Meaty Mates and the rx food now. Others cats get Canada Fresh canned food, sometimes Tripper get some.

Little hijack here. The drug methimazole has been linked to causing pancreatitis. I think in late 2019. A pancreatitis warning is now required to be listed as an adverse reaction.

I'm so glad you were able to help Tripper. It's so tough trying to deal with a suspected food allergy along with Butters's comorbidities. I think Butters's vet is right, that we're going to need the help of a nutritionist to figure this out and just take things one step at a time. I worry I won't be able to get her to eat homemade using another premix unless I can put egg and fish oil in it, both of which are potential allergens. The head shaking is what worries me the most, more so than her taking the skin off her ears...not that that's great.

If I don't get anywhere with the nutritionist or if they think that allergy testing would be the way to go, then I will do it at that point. I'm not ready to ask for it just yet.

 

[Olive & Paula]

I'm so glad you were able to help Tripper. It's so tough trying to deal with a suspected food allergy along with Butters's comorbidities. I think Butters's vet is right, that we're going to need the help of a nutritionist to figure this out and just take things one step at a time. I worry I won't be able to get her to eat homemade using another premix unless I can put egg and fish oil in it, both of which are potential allergens. The head shaking is what worries me the most, more so than her taking the skin off her ears...not that that's great.

If I don't get anywhere with the nutritionist or if they think that allergy testing would be the way to go, then I will do it at that point. I'm not ready to ask for it just yet.

If using premix why would you need to add egg or fish?

Would purchasing a complete balanced freeze dried raw be out of the question? You can add water to it and make it wet or semi wet. I also find the wet food Canada Fresh to less problematic with all my cats. It seems when all the foods were in shortage, my cats started having issues. PJ was really scratching. I don't know if manufacturers where changing recipes because of sourcing issues (purina told me that was their issue) or not, but it was a problem for me.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

If using premix why would you need to add egg or fish?

Because Butters hates the smell, taste and texture of her food with that particular premix unless I add egg yolk and fish oil to it. She can be incredibly picky

Would purchasing a complete balanced freeze dried raw be out of the question? You can add water to it and make it wet or semi wet. I also find the wet food Canada Fresh to less problematic with all my cats. It seems when all the foods were in shortage, my cats started having issues. PJ was really scratching. I don't know if manufacturers where changing recipes because of sourcing issues (purina told me that was their issue) or not, but it was a problem for me.

She was on a balanced freeze dried raw diet for years prior to her diabetes dx. Back then, she didn't really like homemade raw or frozen commercially prepared raw. But now with CKD in the picture, I have to watch her phosphorus levels. To be fair, I haven't yet calculated the P level of these diets based on calories fed, so maybe they would be okay. I don't know. But at this point, I think her vet is leaning toward working with a nutritionist to put together a food elimination diet for her, and I'm starting to get on board with that versus trying to find a commercial food on my own.

 

[Katherine&Ruby]

@Olive & Paula From what I've seen there was only ONE commercially prepared raw food brand that was low phosphorus and safe for CKD kitties and that was RadCat but sadly they went out of business a few years ago due to pressures from the FDA and the US Dept of Agriculture. There might be an alternative available in Canada.

This is why a homemade diet for CKD kitties, especially those suffering from pancreatitis or other GI issues like Butters and Ruby, is often the best option because there are no additives that can inflame sensitive tummies, they're low in phosphorus and we know exactly what goes into the food (versus trusting manufacturers to list every single ingredient, which they are not obliged by law to do).

I really hope an experienced nutritionist can help you get at the root of Butters' problem. Hopefully you will be able to find one who supports raw feeding!

 

[thebigfuzz]

Are you still using coconut oil on her ears instead of polysporin? (Just thinking since the itching is on ears and around paw/face grooming areas…food or some kind of contact allergen?)

 

[Butters & Lyla]

Are you still using coconut oil on her ears instead of polysporin? (Just thinking since the itching is on ears and around paw/face grooming areas…food or some kind of contact allergen?)

No coconut oil. Now that I'm not testing as frequently, I stopped putting anything on her ears. I've also thought about her environment and whether something in it could be causing an issue. I'm extremely careful about what cleaners and detergents etc I use as well, because I'm environmentally sensitive myself. Of course, it's still possible that it could be something environmental that is bothering her, either inside the home or outside since I keep all of the windows open and she does venture onto the back or front porch every so often. Even if that's the case, I think I'm still going to have to try food elimination to at least see whether that improves things or not. It will give good information on what's going on.

I really hope an experienced nutritionist can help you get at the root of Butters' problem. Hopefully you will be able to find one who supports raw feeding!

Thanks Katherine. Even with having fed Butters raw food for most of the six years she has lived with me, I am surprisingly very open to trying virtually any kind of diet (except a low protein one) as long as it is nutritionally complete and doesn't conflict with the dietary requirements for a cat with early stage CKD, DM, pancreatitis and DCM. I am biased toward homemade diets for sure, though. That said, her vet thinks I should find a nutritionist that appeals to me for him to do the consult with, so I am determined to find one who is open to raw and homemade diets.

 

[Olive & Paula]

@Olive & Paula From what I've seen there was only ONE commercially prepared raw food brand that was low phosphorus and safe for CKD kitties and that was RadCat but sadly they went out of business a few years ago due to pressures from the FDA and the US Dept of Agriculture. There might be an alternative available in Canada.

This is why a homemade diet for CKD kitties, especially those suffering from pancreatitis or other GI issues like Butters and Ruby, is often the best option because there are no additives that can inflame sensitive tummies, they're low in phosphorus and we know exactly what goes into the food (versus trusting manufacturers to list every single ingredient, which they are not obliged by law to do).

I really hope an experienced nutritionist can help you get at the root of Butters' problem. Hopefully you will be able to find one who supports raw feeding!

Didn't know she was not in U.S. Hope nutritionist can help.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

Didn't know she was not in U.S. Hope nutritionist can help.

Are you referring to me? I’m in Canada.

 

[Olive & Paula]

Are you referring to me? I’m in Canada.

Yes didn't know you were in Canada when I suggested the 2 freeze dried brands I mentioned earlier.

 

[Butters & Lyla]

Yes didn't know you were in Canada when I suggested the 2 freeze dried brands I mentioned earlier.

Oh..thanks for the suggestions. We have other freeze dried brands here. Unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to short cut this with Butters especially with CKD in the picture. I really think I'm going to have to go the food elimination route and see if that helps.

 

[Olive & Paula]

Because Butters hates the smell, taste and texture of her food with that particular premix unless I add egg yolk and fish oil to it. She can be incredibly picky

She was on a balanced freeze dried raw diet for years prior to her diabetes dx. Back then, she didn't really like homemade raw or frozen commercially prepared raw. But now with CKD in the picture, I have to watch her phosphorus levels. To be fair, I haven't yet calculated the P level of these diets based on calories fed, so maybe they would be okay. I don't know. But at this point, I think her vet is leaning toward working with a nutritionist to put together a food elimination diet for her, and I'm starting to get on board with that versus trying to find a commercial food on my own.

The only other thing would be to use the freeze dried she was on and add a phos binder to it if her phos is high. It's one more thing to do but it's an option. Have you contacted the manufacturer and asked for the ME or As Fed analyse of the food? Maybe it's okay?

 

[Olive & Paula]

Oh..thanks for the suggestions. We have other freeze dried brands here. Unfortunately I don't think I'll be able to short cut this with Butters especially with CKD in the picture. I really think I'm going to have to go the food elimination route and see if that helps.

Contact the companies of the food you can get and ask for the analysis. Maybe it will help. I started doing that with Ollie. I put info on her ss which has now been lost.

Personally I like the home cooked food if my cats would eat it. Smokey was the only one who would. He would sit on my feet while I was making it. None of mine will touch raw food or eat people food at all.