05/04 mom-mom AMPS 594, +3 hi,SOMEONE HELP

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Mom-Mom

Member Since 2014
Mom-mom was doing pretty good afew days ago and now its all hi. I did switch her canned food (the only thing she eats) to Blue Wilderness. She seems to like the salmon and the duck. I did but raw chicken treats made by "Raw Instinct" she loves them but I only gave them to her the one night, until I can get her back to half normal numbers. Should I try ONLY treats??? I am totally lost on this one and I'm trying so hard, please help
 
Mom-Mom is high because she isn't getting enough insulin. Her depot drained with the .5units you gave yesterday. Lantus won't turn the numbers overnight. The 594 and HI are also basically the same reading. Many meters read high when the BG hits 600.

I would definitely up Mom-Mom to 1unit like was suggested yesterday. Then give it enough cycles for her depot to fill up and body to adjust.

Are you testing for ketones with her numbers this high?
 
here's the link to connect your thread....
Mom Mom's 5/3 condo

It looks like you needed to raise the dose to 1 unit.....

save the treats for when you need to give treats... like shot time or testing time.




eta: looks like I'm an echo for Suzanne..... :lol: posting at same time....
 
I dont have any more keytone test strips I am going to Petco soon. I am getting in shower now. I read so many articles about Blue Buffalo and, how it saved certain cats from sure death. I think (HOPE) that when I get back to 1.00 u this evening, she will start to improve in her numbers. Im really scared shes not gonna make it. She has a great appetite but she is still REALLY thin. nailbite_smile.
I feel like I am loosing my mind over this. Just when it starts to go right, I forget something. My husband WAS helping me, for about 2 days but, he REFUSES to learn how to test or shoot, at least to give me a break once in a while. Useless. I'm starting to think all men are LOL.
 
Has anyone suggested the MaxCal food? Since your condo's aren't linked , I have to spend a lot of time going back to see what's been said
and with the board being so unpredictable right now.....

It's a good food for cats needing extra calories. It's usually a prescription food but I think Petco ( some of the stores) actually carry it.


I can't say whether or not Blue Buffalo is good for a diabetic or not. They are one of the food companies that are very uncooperative about
sharing information so that the folks here can calculate the carb values.
Since you are getting some lower numbers.....
I think right now it's the need for increasing the insulin.
And when numbers are as high as they are for Mom-mom..... her diabetes is basically in control of her body.... and it's starving her..... she's
barely getting the nutrition she needs. So she needs those extra calories..... If she'll take high protein snacks, I'd give them. ( boiled chicken,
freeze dried, etc....)
You were asking that earlier.... yes... if it's all protein, I'd give it.... and duck is higher fat so that should be helpful for her gaining weight too.
 
My experience is a little different because the kitties involved were not diabetic and they are hardcore kibble addicts, but Blue Buffalo made several of my cats VERY sick. They lost a lot of weight, were randomly vomiting clear fluid, and bloodwork showed one had developed hypercalcemia while another and calcium levels that were too low. I switched them off Blue and within a few days, all of their vomiting resolved, and they have since regained all the weight that they lost.

Like I said, it was just my experience and definitely different than treating/feeding a diabetic, but I am very leary of the company. And, as Rhiannon said, since they are not forthcoming about carb info, I would also consider that a strike against them, too.

Have you seen Dr Lisa's extensive food chart? All the info you need is right here:
Dr Lisa's Food Chart

Also as Rhiannon said, hopefully once Mom-mom's numbers come down, she'll gain back the weight. I know Trix went from 7lbs to 11lbs once the insulin really started working. Unfortunately, there is no "quick fix" for diabetes...as we often say, strap on those patience pants because this is a marathon, not a sprint. But with patience, you WILL get there. Good luck with the increase!
 
Ketone test strips are available at a regular pharmacy. You may need to ask for them as they could be behind the counter. There are some tips on urine ketone testing in my signature link Secondary Monitoring Tools.

Wish I were closer; I'd come over to help. Unfortunately, it would be nearly an 8 hour drive.

Maybe see if you can find a senior high school or college student interested in veterinary studies (vet tech, veterinarian) to help out. It would be experience for the student which can help get admission to a college program or internship.

If you have a smart phone, it can help to put alarms into the calendar to remind you of testing and/or feeding times, or even "to do" lists. I do that a lot.
 
Yes! You need to go up to 1u of insulin. Yesterday you reduced when you should have increased, so now you are back where you started instead of increasing. The reduction drained the shed and it will take a few days to reestablish the it. This is where the patience pants come in.

Blue Buffalo is an iffy food, simply because they won't tell us what the "as fed" numbers are. The ingredients look good but it does have potatoes which can up the carbs. Is it the only food Mom-mom will eat? It is a fairly high calorie food, the duck pate is 42kcal/oz. While they recommend 2 of the 3oz cans per day for every 6 to 8 pounds of weight. That's 256 calories, which is way too much for a 7 or 8 pound cat! According to Dr. Lisa Pierson:
Considering that the average 10 pound cat only needs about 200 calories per day to maintain their weight ………
a 7 to 8 pound cat will need less! If a 10 lb cat needs 200 kcal., that's 20 calories a pound. A 7 to 8 pound cat will need 140 to 160 calories. ECID but this is a good starting point. My Emma weighs 8lbs, is 3 years old and is very active. She eats 170 calories a day, she was getting 180 but started to lose her waistline. Tess is 7.5lbs and gets a little more (180), but I'm trying to get her to gain weight.

You've been given the link to Dr. Lisa's list. Use that to find a food for Mom-mom that is definitely low carb. Be sure to look at the calories per can too, and figure out how much she really should be eating. and don't just use the chart, read her articles on nutrition and food composition to understand what you are feeding and why.
 
(((Laura)))

Maybe I'm reading a bit too much into your posts but you're sounding pretty overwhelmed. If it's at all reassuring, we've all been in exactly that pair of shoes. The first weeks of trying to manage your cat's diabetes is entirely overwhelming and terrifying. So, for what it's worth, take a deep breath. Next, slow down. You'll catch on and much of what seems overwhelming now, will become routine. You also need to take care of yourself. We all know how devoted you are to Mom-mom. Just give yourself permission to take time to master all of what you need to get a handle on.

There are a couple of basics to try to keep in mind:

  • Dose - Dosing is based on the nadir. If you aren't seeing nadirs that are where you want them, then the dose needs to be increase. Doses are raised after 3 - 5 days depending on the nadir. In some situations, like when numbers are bouncing, you wait for the bounce to clear. (In other words, 3 -- 5 days is the "rule" but there are exceptions.) When in doubt, refer to the Tight Regulation Protocol sticky. Doses are lowered when your kitty's numbers drop below 50. Again, there may be exceptions. If you are unsure, post and ask for help.
  • Food - Keeping your cat on a nutritionally complete, low carb (under 10% carb -- although most of us feed in the 5% or lower range), canned food diet is recommended. You don't want to feed just treats or only human food. These options are not nutritionally complete and in the long run, will cause Mom-mom to have health problems. Again, there are exceptions (like if your kitty is sick and rotisserie chicken is the only thing she'll eat). Sticking with the foods that Mom-mom likes that are on Dr. Lisa's food chart will help. If you want the abridged version of that list, Rhiannon/Shadow put together a short version that has only the low carb foods.
  • Shot time - Try to shoot as close to every 12 hours as is humanly possible. Lantus likes consistency. Keeping shot times and doses consistent is important because Lantus is a depot-type of insulin. Any change had an impact on the depot. Early shots act like a dose increase; late shots act like a dose reduction. The depot also needs to have time to stabilize so you have time to evaluate each change in dose.
I don't know what to suggest about your husband (well, I could make some suggestions but they wouldn't be polite). I manage Gabby all on my own. It would be much easier if I had another person to help out but I don't. Getting yourself into a routine will help you. It will also help Mom-mom. Cat's like routine and predictability.

Please remember that while we may not be hanging out in your backyard, we are here to help. The Board being unreliable isn't helping anyone's anxiety but we will respond as soon as possible. You have a great deal of support here.
 
I thought I'd give you a shortcut list you can print and take to the store with you. There are just so many varieties that I often would pick up the wrong foods
in the beginning ... not catching minced vs flaked vs pate .... and have to go back and exchange them.
I also would write the carb % on the top of the can with a sharpie in the early days.

shortcut list
This is a sublist of all the foods from Dr. Lisa Pierson's list..... I just weeded out anything above 8% since the list is so very long.


Try to Breathe.......
SmileyHoldingBreath.jpg
 
hi laura,

it is overwhelming in the beginning. everyone feels that way. it's like a crash college course in Feline Diabetes 101 - and most of us knew very little about cat's bodies and/or diabetes to start with! Some people cope at the beginning by just posting here every day and asking us to tell them what to do with the dose, then they do that. sometimes that's easier to start that way instead of trying to figure things out on your own.

my thought is that you're placing more emphasis on figuring out the food than you need to. The general idea is that any canned food is better than the best dry food. So you've got her on canned food, which is great. But if you're on a budget, go with Friskies. It's not The Best cat food, but it will do - then you'll have enough $ to get ketone test strips, or save towards getting her bad tooth pulled. If you want something better than Friskies, i'd go with one of the foods on the http://www.catinfo.org site where you can be certain the food is low-carb.

The concern about ketones is very valid - the "recipe" for ketones is "not enough insulin + not enough food + infection." We know she's got a tooth that's infected. It's very important that she get enough insulin until you can get the tooth issue taken care of. We'll know she has enough insulin when her numbers come down, which is why people are talking about the dose right now.

So she's gained quite a bit of weight - that's super. From 2lbs to 7 is a huge improvement.

Now that you've got her on low carb (i hope - do you know for certain that the Blue Mountain is low carb?) canned food, the most important thing is to get enough insulin in her. I think you only went up to .75u this morning because of the protocol suggesting increasing in 0.25u increments. But her "regular" dose was already 0.75u - the 2 shots reduced to 0.5u are irrelevant in this - and you should go immediately, with her next scheduled shot, up to 1.0u.

It is SO much to take in, but really, it will get easier. Once her numbers come down you won't be quite as stressed about it. Keep leaning on us and we'll help you get through it. you aren't alone. :YMHUG:
 
Thank you all sooo much for the support. Sienne I wish I knew what to do with this guy here, he is more of a burden than a help. He refuses to read any of the information I have about diabetes but, its always "his way" when it comes to the type of food. He thinks he knows it all. Well he IS Italian, that explains it LOL. I did print out the shortcut shopping list. I am going to Petco tomorrow. I was gonna go today but, I'm still not feeling great. My little baby follows me around the house beggin to eat. Even 5 minutes after she ate. Then when I do feed her again, he yells that I am OVERfeeding her. Am I ??? Trust me, I WILL NOT forget tonight to give her 1.00 PMPS. She is the most important thing in my life right now (well she always has been). Again, THANK YOU much ladies. Dont know if I would have made it this far along without each and every one of your support. Now that I am feeding her without his advice, he keeps saying "your cat will be dead by the end of the week" She isnt like CLOSE to death, IS SHE ????
 
Your post made me laugh. My husband is 1/2 Italian. They can be stubborn, can't they? I can't imagine if he was full-blooded :lol:

I sincerely doubt Mom-Mom is close to death. Cobb saw numbers that high for MONTHS. And the food won't kill her.

Definitely look at the food list Rhiannon posted. I noticed a marked improvement in Cobb's BG when I switched him to the right food. Our HI numbers quickly disappeared, although we saw higher than desired numbers for awhile.

Try to relax. Don't get so overwhelmed! There is so much to learn, quickly. We've all been there. It really is a crash course like Julie says.
 
BJ gave you some good information yesterday about why diabetics are hungry. The shorter version is that until a diabetic (human or feline) is regulated, glucose, which is what all food breaks down to when we eat and digest a meal, is floating around in the blood. (Hence the term, "blood glucose.") Unfortunately, that's not where the glucose is supposed to be. In order to benefit from what's being eaten, the glucose needs to get into the cells. That's what insulin does -- it functions to get glucose from the blood stream into our cells so we are nourished and have energy. It also explains why so many cats get skinny prior to our finding out that our kitties have diabetes - food isn't going where it's supposed to go. Once we get them on insulin and you see numbers coming down, it's telling you that less insulin is floating around in the blood. Once a cat is in better numbers, the cat is able to regain the lost weight because the glucose (food) is getting where it's supposed to go.

This also helps to explain why low carb foods are better than higher carb foods. The higher the carbs, the more sugar the food contains. So, if you are feeding low carb food, you will, hopefully, be able to give less insulin. In addition, if your cat's pancreas is healing, it puts less of a burden on a healing pancreas to produce its own insulin to overcome the amount of carbs that need to be metabolized.

One way to balance out the hungry cat with high numbers and carbs is to figure out the amount of food you give during the AM and PM cycles. So, if you are giving Mom-mom one, 5 oz can of food (I'm making this up) during each the AM and PM cycle, divide that up into portions. You can then spread out those portions over the cycle. You may want to see if you can stop feeding after +6. After nadir, there's less Lantus available to offset the effect of food. If Mom-mom is making noises like she's starving, you could give her some freeze dried chicken or even a small amount of cooked (or even raw) chicken. Pure protein as a small snack will have a minimal effect on her numbers.

You might want to point out to you husband that cats, even Italian cats, don't do well on pasta. They do even less well if given tomato sauce. (Onions can cause hemolytic anemia in cats.) As much as they may want cheese, most cats are lactose intolerant. He's welcome to feed the kitties meatballs provided they are made without onions or garlic. Some cats are also allergic to beef and fish. Bottom line, cats are obligate carnivores -- all they need is protein and the various vitamins and minerals that are necessary for a nutritionally complete diet. If you are keeping an eye on Mom-mom's weight, then you have data. He may not want to be confused by the facts, but if that's the case, he's letting his stubbornness override his intelligence. (You are welcome to point out that there are a number of us here who have been around this block a few times. If he wants articles for reference, we're happy to inundate him in information. Alternatively, if he's so sure of what he's saying, we'd be happy to read the research he can provide. I've often found asking someone to back up their point of view with research ends the discussion.)
 
Bravo Sienne. I will laugh all night from that. I needed that believe me I did. And Thank You for knowing EXACTLY what to say. Good job girlfriend!!! :-D
 
You have gotten advice from the pros. To add, I believe while Blue is grain free, it is not low carb. I forget where I read this but I think Lisa Pierson mentioned it on her food comments. Petco doesn't carry Max Cal but Pet Smart might. It is a veterinary prescription food and I think "might not" be low carb. That I am not sure about. I fed it to a sick cat but she didn't like it and had to be syringe fed. Good luck finding a lower carb food mom-mom will eat.
 
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