02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,390,+6 406,PMPS 421, +3, 338

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Pip & Rupert

Pip & Rupert

Member Since 2012
yesterdays amazing surf: http://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=64709

numbers:
AMPS 217.8
+3.5 77.4
+5.5 68.4
+ 7 79.2
+9 118.8
PMPS 239.4
+ 3.5 172.8

Rupert waiting on the landing for me. Bright eyed and happy as usual. Not entirely unexpected bump but of course I was hoping he'd hold it to yellow again for this morning. hoping he doesn't dive too steep today but also hoping to get off the dreaded red floor. Such a great day for him yesterday. He's certainly looking and feeling very good. will stick with the fat 1.5, it seems to be slowly doing the trick for now.....

I did leave a fair bit of food out for him last night. Both bowls were empty this morning (both had Merrick in them)...Oliver (hoover cat!) was locked in 'his' room all night so I know he didn't eat it all, it could've been eaten a bit by Polly, but I"m thinking maybe Rupie had a few midnight snacks (my intent anyway) and got a bit carried away. Hopefully that's the case...Looking at my data, if he follows his current pattern he'll either stay red all day or dip to Blue by +3.
I guess this is wear the data analysis starts getting interesting.

I notice some people say they are switching to Levemir...what is the benefit/difference in that? Not thinking of switching this early in the game, just curious.

hope everyone has a good day. Sigh,.. off to work for me!
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 - drat...kerboing!

Hi guys .. wowwie rupert, kinda extreme don't you think? Let's bring it back down, nice and slow .. Hopefully it was just a few extra midnight snacks that pushed him up to this floor .. I don't know all the difference between lantus and levemir, but I do know levemir has a much later onset .. I think anyways! Have a great day guys!
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 - drat...kerboing!

Hi Pip, Rupert will be down to a nice number, you'll see; just so he doesn't drop like a bomb, like Checks does.

I am considering switching to Lev, hoping to push back his onset. He just drops suddenly. I'm trying to manipulate that with food, but have a hard time, giving carbs when his number is already high. I'm hoping lev will straighten out the curve a bit.
It'll be a gamble for us.
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,+1.5/428. sigh.

Really? going UP? I guess breakfast is kicking in and maybe that AMPS number was not as a result of him eating anything earlier. sigh. this is so so frustrating.
hopefully his lunchtime number will be a better colour.
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,+1.5/428. sigh.

Pip, it's normal for +1 to be higher than amps...it's in the stickies somewhere, honest.

C'mon down Rupert...yer makin' yer mamabean sad. We want her happy, K?
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,+1.5/428, +2.5, 390

okay, breathe, breathe.. he's coming back down again. and a slow slow rate. still hoping for yellows or dark blues by the end of the day.

thanx for the info re the +1 being more....I guess I usually do a +2 (looking back at my notes) so I'm not used to seeing it go up before it heads down!
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,+1.5/428, +2.5, 390, +6, 406, sig

darn it, a 406 at +6. sigh. I was so hoping he'd clear this sooner. why would he bounce on the same dose he's had for days? should I be thinking about upping? reducing?? so confused. I know this bounce was to be expected, I guess, given yesterdays quick drop into lovely numbers. I was hoping the fact that he stayed green for longer than he has in a while, that it was a sign he was getting the hang of this.
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,+1.5/428, +2.5, 390,+6, 406,SIGH!

so, I've been doing a ton of reading, research, and trying to understand all of this.

am I crazy to think that perhaps I should actually LOWER the dose for Rupert for a few days rather than taking it up to a full 1.75 (he's currently on a fat 1.5). the vet had us start at 2, and then up to 3 after a few days.. but he seemed to dip very low, pretty quickly on that. so we went down and down..... and now, given everything i'm reading, it suggests that if these rebounds are happening, it would be better to reduce the dose and work back up again rather than wait it out, keep shooting the same number and expect a different result?

smack me if I'm completely off track. still learning here! am thinking possibly taking him down to 1.5 or maybe skinny 1.5.. I know you'll probably say 'wait til the bounce clears' but if I keep on with the f 1.5 and he goes green again, in a hurry, then he'll bounce again and we'll be on the same merry go round forever.
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,+1.5/428, +2.5, 390,+6, 406,SIGH!

Someone else with stronger knowledge can better answer you, but my guess is that Rupert is bouncing off yesterday's pretty colors. It sounds like you've probably heard it before...it can take up to 72 loooong hours for a bounce to clear, and it can take quite a while for a kitty's liver to settle down and quit the bouncey game all-together. And, just when you think you've passe Liver Training School, the liver decides it's bored and starts bouncing again. It's just the unpredictable nature of FD.

Personally, I would hold his dose where it's at for right now, but that's just me. One thing about FD...it teaches - or, realistically, it forces - patience.

To draw attention to your question specifically, it helps to use the question mark icon, and put "help" in your subject line.

Have a great evening!

Amy
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,+1.5/428, +2.5, 390,+6, 406,SIGH!

Hi Pip, I haven't posted in your condo before...welcome to the group!

What you are seeing is bouncing, and many kitties bounce when they start out on insulin. Most FD have been sitting in high BG levels for a period of time before they are diagnosed and treatment begins, so their body thinks those high numbers are "normal". The bounces you see are a result of kitty dropping into numbers that are lower than kitty is used to, or fast drops in BG. It's a protective reaction of the liver to prevent hypoglycemia....so the good news is, Rupert's liver is doing it's job! Bouncing is a common cause of frustration here...you are not alone. The best way to deal with bouncing is to hold the dose until the bounce clears, and then assess the dose. You don't want to increase the dose while Rupert is bouncing....he is already seeing mid greens on this dose, and he could go quite low when the bounce clears if you increase prematurely. Right now, he does not have room for a dose increase.

Now, the question of reducing because of "rebound"....this is old school thinking. Yes, some people still do it, but the end result of less insulin is higher numbers...I don't think you want that, do you? That's where you started! The best way to deal with bouncing is by doing exactly what you don't think it is.....continuing to keep him on a dose that brings his numbers down into normal range, even if he bounces. Eventually, his liver will learn that the green numbers are not too low, and he will stop bouncing....at least hopefully! We call it LTS (liver training school) and many, many other folks here are in the same boat. I would suggest visiting some other condos and looking at other people's SS....you'll see other kitties in similar situations, as well as some that are making progress on reducing bouncing.

I know it's frustrating....but there really are no easy shortcuts, if there were, wouldn't we all be using them? ;-)
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,390,+6, 406, PMPS 421

PMPS 421. sigh.

okay. so I'll go with the f1.5 one more time, complete this cycle and see what happens. I still have this suspicion that his body IS trying to help and the dose might be too high and throwing things off, but we'll see if we can clear this bounce before another one happens... thanx for the suggestions.

I AM pleased that he stayed green longer than he ever has yesterday.. so I shouldn't be dwelling on this horrid red day.. ..just worry that we might get stuck in a vicious cycle of forced green, followed by panicky liver, followed by red.... maintaining the dose that caused the green, and then getting panicky liver and ending in the red/black... etc.etc. I guess I just have this idea that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result! I know, I know. patience.. as you may have already figured out, it's not one of my strongest attributes!

ps. can't seem to put any numbers in my spreadsheet at the moment, suspect google is borking.
 
Re: 02/27 Rupert AMPS 403 ,390,+6, 406, PMPS 421

Make sure you're still logged in to your Google account. Sometimes you get bounced out and have to log back in.

With a bounce, you need to wait for the bounce to clear before you increase. It doesn't matter if it's the 5th cycle -- you wait for the bounce to clear. The bouncing does slow down. And a BIG "yes" on being patient. Rupert has been at this for less than 2 months and who knows how long he was actually diabetic. Miracles don't happen overnight!

It sounds like you were reading about chronic Somogyi rebound. I will spare you my soapbox speech on this topic -- I've researched it (twice) and I've got access to medical and vet libraries. It is at best, controversial. The original research from 1938 has never been replicated and it doesn't apply to long-acting, depot-type insulin. It has about the same status as an urban legend.
 
+3 and we are back to pale pink. that's a bit better.

now I"m completely confused, I thought the whole theory re the bounce WAS Somogyi rebound. What is it then, if it isn't that? so very confused? I thought it was the liver panicking and dumping sugar into the system to protect the cat. I thought that was the principal of somogyi rebound. so what IS a bounce then?

no matter really. I'm very curious to see what happens tomorrow, the last time he did a long red, down to pink.. next day he went green .. seriously green. so we'll see what happens in the morning. I"m going to bed! too tired to keep trying to think about this anymore at this time of night! I keep looking at my spreadsheets and trend charts etc. it seems that initially the trend was slow and steadily downward, then it started heading upward.. now we are back to a flat trendline...hm. still.. I work with scientists, I know I can skew the data anyway I want it to be if I really work at it!
 
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