01/22 Butters PMPS 90/+2.5 95 - mild cardiomyopathy diagnosis

Butters & Lyla

Butters & Lyla

Member Since 2020
Yesterday
Cardiologist appointment this morning. She got the echo done, as well as a blood panel done because I asked.

BP is normal (124).

He said her electrical activity is normal and there are no signs of clots. But her left ventricle is larger than what it should be. Her cardiac muscle is not contracting as strongly as it should be. She was diagnosed with a mild dilated cardiomyopathy that is more commonly found in dogs than cats.

The reason, he said, could be genetic or possibly a taurine deficiency. There is a fancy blood test that he said can measure taurine levels but it requires a lot of blood. He recommended just giving her 250mg taurine bid and bringing her back in six months for another echo to see if it resolves. So I'm going to do that.

Until then, he said no general anesthesia (ie no dental) unless absolutely urgent. I forgot to ask about fluids but he will call me with the blood panel results next week so I will ask him then.

I feed her EZ Complete and I checked before I started giving it that it contained taurine. I also ran it by one of her vets. Dr. Cardiologist hadn't heard of it but looked at the Food Fur Life site and only said I may want to contact them to find out how much is actually in there as he didn't see it specified. But he was not suggesting a diet change or anything. Just give extra taurine and see how it goes.

Oh and she dropped low after the appointment in spite of eating syrupy treats before I sent her in. Caught her right at 50:smuggrin:.
Have a great rest of your day, all.
 
nice report and nice bg catch!

Butters & Lyla said:
EZ Complete and I checked before I started giving it that it contained taurine.
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not sure if my memory is serving me well, but i think i've seen either @tiffmaxee or @Marje and Gracie write that they added extra taurine because they kept the raw portions frozen and that impacted the taurine due to time to serve?
 
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Over all that's good. Hope the cardiologist wrote no fluids, dental right on report. Had Ollie's do that so primary vet couldn't argue it. He limited it to 200 ml/week. One time primary wanted to give her 300 ml. I did not let that happen. But She did get 60-70 ml twice a week and during a p'titis flare I did an extra day of 50 ml. Used a line with a chamber for accuracy.

Have you been giving fluids? Should you ever have to, it can be done safely if limited.

When Ollie received her wings that was one of the deciding factors, the ER said I could admit her for the weekend so the echo, labs and ultrasounds could be done first think Monday. However, the amount of fluids they would need to give her would put her into full blown CHF. And they didn't think she would survive despite all the meds to keep it from happening.
 
Definitely write to Food Fur Life re: taurine. I wrote a few days ago to inquire about the phosphorus levels of their powdered egg yolk and Laurie has been very forthcoming with information and happy to answer questions and engage in dialogue. She's a raw food nutrition guru.
 
FFL does add extra taurine to account for freezing but both my kitties have benign left bundle branch blocks which is not uncommon in cats. However, our cardiologist has us supplement the taurine and also give CoQ10.

I buy NOW pure taurine powder and give 250 mg/day and NOW pure CoQ10 powder and give 25 mg/day. I’ve read, however, that cats with DCM should have 250 mg taurine twice a day. I’d check with the cardiologist. Any excess taurine not needed is just excreted.
 
tiffmaxee said:
I think it was Marje and I need to do this for my girls probably.

How much did he say to add Lyla?
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Marje and Gracie said:
FFL does add extra taurine to account for freezing but both my kitties have benign left bundle branch blocks which is not uncommon in cats. However, our cardiologist has us supplement the taurine and also give CoQ10.

I buy NOW pure taurine powder and give 250 mg/day and NOW pure CoQ10 powder and give 25 mg/day. I’ve read, however, that cats with DCM should have 250 mg taurine twice a day. I’d check with the cardiologist. Any excess taurine not needed is just excreted.
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He told me to add 250mg taurine twice a day (also said excess is just excreted) and recommended the NOW pure powder as well. Are they capsules, Marje? I’m trying to find it in Canada in a 250mg capsule I can open and mix into her food. Ill look harder after work but so far only 500mg capsules. I haven’t looked online just called a couple of health stores nearby.

He didn’t mention CoQ10 powder but may not be a bad thing for me to ask him about when he calls next week.

Does anyone know if the powder tastes bad? I want to just mix it into her food.
 
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Olive & Paula said:
Over all that's good. Hope the cardiologist wrote no fluids, dental right on report. Had Ollie's do that so primary vet couldn't argue it. He limited it to 200 ml/week. One time primary wanted to give her 300 ml. I did not let that happen. But She did get 60-70 ml twice a week and during a p'titis flare I did an extra day of 50 ml. Used a line with a chamber for accuracy.

Have you been giving fluids? Should you ever have to, it can be done safely if limited.

When Ollie received her wings that was one of the deciding factors, the ER said I could admit her for the weekend so the echo, labs and ultrasounds could be done first think Monday. However, the amount of fluids they would need to give her would put her into full blown CHF. And they didn't think she would survive despite all the meds to keep it from happening.
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:bighug:
I haven’t had to give fluids but she was getting a fair bit when she was hospitalized for five days with pancreatitis back in october. He said I’ll have the report in about a week, but he is supposed to call before then with blood panel results so I will ask him to write any notes about fluid and dental on it.
 
I’m worried about dental, though. Butters hasn’t had one in two years because her vets kept saying it didn’t look that necessary. Then i put it off to wait until she had the echo. Now the cardiologist is saying no unnecessary general anesthesia at least until she has her follow up echo in six months...and he is hoping it resolves with the additional taurine.

Do cats with cardiomyopathy not get dentals done? Her breath isn’t great. I can see some tartar. I personally think she needs one. But obviously I don’t want to put her at greater risk by having her get a general anaesthetic.
 
Butters & Lyla said:
I’m worried about dental, though. Butters hasn’t had one in two years because her vets kept saying it didn’t look that necessary. Then i put it off to wait until she had the echo. Now the cardiologist is saying no unnecessary general anesthesia at least until she has her follow up echo in six months...and he is hoping it resolves with the additional taurine.

Do cats with cardiomyopathy not get dentals done? Her breath isn’t great. I can see some tartar. I personally think she needs one. But obviously I don’t want to put her at greater risk by having her get a general anaesthetic.
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Ollie had one. I used dental specialist. She was high dose at the time, knew about the hcm, murmur, acro and abdominal mass. Cardiologist cleared her for dental and listed anaesthesia and meds she should not have. Ollie did great. Me, not so much.
 
Butters & Lyla said:
He told me to add 250mg taurine twice a day (also said excess is just excreted) and recommended the NOW pure powder as well. Are they capsules, Marje? I’m trying to find it in Canada in a 250mg capsule I can open and mix into her food. Ill look harder after work but so far only 500mg capsules. I haven’t looked online just called a couple of health stores nearby.

He didn’t mention CoQ10 powder but may not be a bad thing for me to ask him about when he calls next week.

Does anyone know if the powder tastes bad? I want to just mix it into her food.
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They do have capsules but the pure powder is loose powder and I prefer it that way. It’s much easier for me to measure than trying to get a consistent portion of a capsule. I buy mine from one of the trustworthy online companies like vitacost, iherb, or pureformulas. Not sure which, if any, ship to Canada. I have a hard time finding them in pure powder form in the health food stores but they usually have the capsules.
 
Butters & Lyla said:
Do cats with cardiomyopathy not get dentals done?
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Neko did get dentals, also with a dental specialist, who interacted with her cardiologist. But that's just when she just had mild HCM, after her blocks, it was no to anaesthesia ever. Waiting for a 6 month period to re-echo sounds like a good idea. Are you brushing Butters teeth your self? Vets can usually flick off the worst of the tartar if there is some, during a regular exam.

Iherb ships to Canada. Canadian option is Vitasave, in 250 mg capsules or powder. I use Vitasave quite often.
 
Marje and Gracie said:
They do have capsules but the pure powder is loose powder and I prefer it that way. It’s much easier for me to measure than trying to get a consistent portion of a capsule. I buy mine from one of the trustworthy online companies like vitacost, iherb, or pureformulas. Not sure which, if any, ship to Canada. I have a hard time finding them in pure powder form in the health food stores but they usually have the capsules.
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How do you measure it out, Marje? I just googled images of the pure powder and it says 1/4 tsp is 1 gram. So I would need to get a 1/16 tsp to measure out 250mg. My scale measures nothing smaller than grams.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
Neko did get dentals, also with a dental specialist, who interacted with her cardiologist. But that's just when she just had mild HCM, after her blocks, it was no to anaesthesia ever. Waiting for a 6 month period to re-echo sounds like a good idea. Are you brushing Butters teeth your self? Vets can usually flick off the worst of the tartar if there is some, during a regular exam.

Iherb ships to Canada. Canadian option is Vitasave, in 250 mg capsules or powder. I use Vitasave quite often.
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I have two different toothbrushes and toothpastes but have failed miserably at coaxing Butters to allow me access to brush her teeth. I gave up but have always made sure she was getting regular dentals. I don't know. I suppose I should try harder.
Thanks for the recommendations .I've used Vitasave too.
Her DCM is mild (and maybe it will resolve if it is a taurine deficiency issue). But the cardiologist still wanted me to wait on doing anything requiring general anesthesia. I'll have to figure out how to get one for her at some point. Especially while it is just mild DCM.

The link for 250mg capsules is actually for 1000mg capsules, but 250 of them. I am sure I'll be able to find a 1/16 tsp somewhere...amazon perhaps..
 
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I use either a piece of gauze wrapped around my finger, or a baby face cloth to "wipe" the teeth. Not saying I'm fabulous at doing it regularly either. :rolleyes: For raw eaters, you can try natural tooth brushes, depending if there are protein limitation. Neko got 1 inch pieces of raw chicken neck to start, or the outer wing tip. When phosphorus became an issue, she got chicken gizzard pieces, dipped in boiling water first to sterilize, then cooled. I'd do a batch at once. Not sure what to do if chicken is an allergen.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I use either a piece of gauze wrapped around my finger, or a baby face cloth to "wipe" the teeth. Not saying I'm fabulous at doing it regularly either. :rolleyes: For raw eaters, you can try natural tooth brushes, depending if there are protein limitation. Neko got 1 inch pieces of raw chicken neck to start, or the outer wing tip. When phosphorus became an issue, she got chicken gizzard pieces, dipped in boiling water first to sterilize, then cooled. I'd do a batch at once. Not sure what to do if chicken is an allergen.
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Thanks...I'll try some of these. They inspire other possible ideas, too. I remember Dr. Lisa's site says larger meat chunks is good for their teeth.
I don't know if chicken is an allergen or not, but phosphorus is an issue now. If I know Butters, she will get offended if I present her with a gizzard piece, but I'm going to try that.
 
Just had another dip to 50@+10. At what point is she no longer going lower because of the vet visit...and instead is just going lower? I've been keeping her propped up with syrup and testing her a lot just to avoid a drop below 50 and possibly having to take a reduction because of a vet visit.
 
My girl was often "feisty" at her echos, cardio vet knew she wasn't well when she was compliant. :rolleyes: OK, sedation isn't a factor in her numbers then. Butters has been dancing in the 50's the last few days, nadirs sneaking down so I think this is the dose talking.
 
Wendy&Neko said:
My girl was often "feisty" at her echos, cardio vet knew she wasn't well when she was compliant. :rolleyes: OK, sedation isn't a factor in her numbers then. Butters has been dancing in the 50's the last few days, nadirs sneaking down so I think this is the dose talking.
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Lol Neko! I like "feisty". Butters is apparently incredibly compliant with all vets...a very different cat than the one I know:rolleyes:.

I'm going to lay off the syrup then. This gets me to thinking, if she is going to earn a reduction, do you think it would be okay to consider going back to shaved reductions like I used to do for her? Or if you were me, would you wait for her to have a failed reduction before reintroducing that?

Now that her doses are smaller (she is at 2.5u), compared to when she was at 4.25u, each .25u reduction is becoming a larger % of her overall dose. My gut is saying to switch back to shaved reductions now...but what do I know.
 
Butters & Lyla said:
How do you measure it out, Marje? I just googled images of the pure powder and it says 1/4 tsp is 1 gram. So I would need to get a 1/16 tsp to measure out 250mg. My scale measures nothing smaller than grams.
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you can get a milligram scale w calibration weights. i have mine from a very long time ago. but. don’t guess they’d be too hard to find in today’s online order world.
 
JOJI and Kit said:
you can get a milligram scale w calibration weights. i have mine from a very long time ago. but. don’t guess they’d be too hard to find in today’s online order world.
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Thanks...I just had a look-see and they're not hard to find at all. I was hoping to avoid owning something else to clutter up my tiny place. Butters has needs though. lol. DM, CKD, pancreatitis and heart issues sure do take up a lot of kitchen cupboard and countertop space.
 
I think it's your call on what you do for reductions. If you try a smaller reduction and you find your self fighting a larger depot, then it's an experiment that didn't work. Personally, I went to shaving reductions (even on smaller doses), when the larger ones stopped working. Note to any lurkers, this suggestion is for Butters and Lyla only, given the amount of testing and data they have
 
Wendy&Neko said:
I think it's your call on what you do for reductions. If you try a smaller reduction and you find your self fighting a larger depot, then it's an experiment that didn't work. Personally, I went to shaving reductions (even on smaller doses), when the larger ones stopped working. Note to any lurkers, this suggestion is for Butters and Lyla only, given the amount of testing and data they have
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Thanks Wendy. I appreciate your thoughts.
 
I have a gram scale. It’s very small. You can get tiny spoon that measure those small amounts on Amazon. I predict a reduction. I would do a full .25 and shave after that if it fails.
 
Butters & Lyla said:
How do you measure it out, Marje? I just googled images of the pure powder and it says 1/4 tsp is 1 gram. So I would need to get a 1/16 tsp to measure out 250mg. My scale measures nothing smaller than grams.
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I use this set of small measuring spoons.

Insofar as the teeth, my veterinary dentist just recommends water on a small cloth and rubbing it against their teeth and gums. I have baby wash cloths I use.
 
She is higher this evening....I wouldn't dare mention the "S" word...but I'm getting a little excited because I could use some.
 
:bighug::bighug::bighug:

Hang in there! Can you be my cat mom? You take such great care of Butters :cat: She is lucky to have you!


Years after his FD remission, Elie developed DCM and Eosinophilic paraneoplastic syndrome - a very tough combo. It does get more complicated to find the balance in treatments, but the taurine is a great thing to start with and a follow up echo :)

:bighug::bighug::bighug:
 
lol. Sure I would love to be your cat mom:bighug:! But only if you'll be mine in return:). Elie's illnesses sound like they were incredibly tricky to manage. I don't think I quite know what I'm in for just yet with DCM being added on top of DM, chronic pancreatitis and CKD. I don't know if I'm back to square one or what.

Today I'm trying to hold out hope that it is a taurine deficiency that caused it and all looks good in six months. Unbridled optimism..or just being naïve...lol. Who knows. The vet made it sound like it could resolve if it is due to taurine deficiency. I would hate if he gave me hope where there is none. I guess I just have to do the best I can.

Thank you for the suggestions and support, everyone:bighug:. I really appreciate it.
 
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