01/2 Radar amps 408; +2/278 +3/284 +5/204 +6/167 -he's still going down

[Jan Radar (GA)]

New Year's Day post
I want to begin today's post with a sincere thanks to @julie & punkin (ga) for your late night thinking and help. @Marje and Gracie and @Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey and @Critter Mom and @Bobbie And Bubba your thoughts and help yesterday are a good beginning to my new year

I am attempting to learn more about how to flatten Radar's cycles using food. There are a few things I know are true at this point...
1) He seems to begin metabolizing insulin very quickly. His onset is sometimes as soon as 45 minutes or so. My evidence for this is that he tends to not eat much right at shot time but when the insulin starts working he will dig into his dish - unless he is not in the eating zone. When we were using Vetsulin, his onset was under an hour at times so it's not surprising that he also has a quick onset with Lantus.
2) He has had difficulty eating with consistency since December 2015. We have experimented with many foods and have found that he seems to have sensitivity to fish so I don't feed it any more. He can't handle any type of gravy. The last time I gave it to him, he had an almost immediate urge to throw up. He also seems to have sensitivity to high amounts of fat in food so although he will eat duck or turkey, I stick to feeding chicken most of the time.
3) In the last few months, I have attempted to give the same foods at the same time in a cycle and do that order with consistency as much as he will cooperate by eating what I give him.

This morning he was willing to eat and so I tried to load him up with carbs so he would not drop so fast. Apparently I didn't give him enough because he dropped 83 in the first hour and 47 in the second hour. I'm home today and can monitor and experiment but tomorrow I go back to work... thoughts? suggestions?

Edited to Add: He gets pumpkin daily to help with regularity in the LB. He also gets probiotics daily. His dishes are raised and that seems to help him eat better. He prefers to eat every 2 hours or so and I try to accommodate this preference as much as possible.

 

[Critter Mom]

He seems to begin metabolizing insulin very quickly. His onset is sometimes as soon as 45 minutes or so. My evidence for this is that he tends to not eat much right at shot time but when the insulin starts working he will dig into his dish - unless he is not in the eating zone. When we were using Vetsulin, his onset was under an hour at times so it's not surprising that he also has a quick onset with Lantus.

Exactly the same as Saoirse.

He also seems to have sensitivity to high amounts of fat in food

That might be due to chronic pancreatitis, Jan. While the research into whether fat should be restricted in the diets of cats with pancreatitis has not shown any link between amount of dietary fat and severity of inflammation, anecdotal evidence suggests that some cats may be more fat-sensitive than others. For example, Sarah's Remi is extremely sensitive to fats (can trigger severe flares in him). Sarah is a member of the feline pancreatitis support group on Yahoo! and she has advised here that some cats there do better when the fat % in their diet is reduced.

This morning he was willing to eat and so I tried to load him up with carbs so he would not drop so fast. Apparently I didn't give him enough because he dropped 83 in the first hour and 47 in the second hour.

Ironically there's a possibility that it might have been the other way round, Jen: some cats may respond better with a few extra carbs! (Note: still under the 10% mark!)

The pancreas pulses insulin at mealtimes. I'm not sure of the mechanics but there is a relationship between the size of meals/carb content and the magnitude of the pulse that the pancreas produces. I found that Saoirse's BG would drop after a good feed of a 4.4% carb food whereas a meal of <2% carb food might see her show a slight food rise at +1/+2 or have negligible influence on BG during Lantus peak action period.

Something to consider.


Mogs
.

 

[Critter Mom]

Another thought: with the extra bit of food onboard I wonder whether the body's 'red alert' mechanisms might not kick in as quickly? Maybe with the extra food 'detected' the BG can drop further before counter-regulatory mechanisms kick in to offset the effects of the insulin dose? (Brainstorming here.)


Mogs
.

 

[Jan Radar (GA)]

Exactly the same as Saoirse.

That might be due to chronic pancreatitis, Jan. While the research into whether fat should be restricted in the diets of cats with pancreatitis has not shown any link between amount of dietary fat and severity of inflammation, anecdotal evidence suggests that some cats may be more fat-sensitive than others. For example, Sarah's Remi is extremely sensitive to fats (can trigger severe flares in him). Sarah is a member of the feline pancreatitis support group on Yahoo! and she has advised here that some cats there do better when the fat % in their diet is reduced.


Ironically there's a possibility that it might have been the other way round, Jan: some cats may respond better with a few extra carbs! (Note: still under the 10% mark!)

The pancreas pulses insulin at mealtimes. I'm not sure of the mechanics but there is a relationship between the size of meals/carb content and the magnitude of the pulse that the pancreas produces. I found that Saoirse's BG would drop after a good feed of a 4.4% carb food whereas a meal of <2% carb food might see her show a slight food rise at +1/+2 or have negligible influence on BG during peak Lantus action period.

Something to consider.


Mogs
.

I will begin the charting of Radar's response to these slight variations in carb content. Thanks for the suggestions for my project. I will keep you posted on what I find out... I post most often on the weekends.

 

[Critter Mom]

I will keep you posted on what I find out...

Please do, Jan! I do like learning more about quirks and anomalies. (Tag me when you post; with the PTSD the L&L board index is so informationally busy it freaks me out big time. )

Sending s to you and scritches to Radar.


Mogs
.

 

[carfurby (GA)]

Happy New Year Jan! Good luck feeding the curve and figuring out what works for Radar.

 

[Tricia Cinco(GA) & Harvey]

I'm glad he's eating today. It really is a trial and error kind of thing, trying to figure out how much of what to feed to steer numbers. Unfortunately, ECID is really, really true here! You're doing a wonderful job, Jan!

 

[Jan Radar (GA)]

I'm glad he's eating today. It really is a trial and error kind of thing, trying to figure out how much of what to feed to steer numbers. Unfortunately, ECID is really, really true here! You're doing a wonderful job, Jan!

Thanks for the vote of confidence. I will carry on then with trying different things at different times of the cycle and see what I can discover. Hopefully Radar will cooperate with my experiments by doing his part and eating.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

One thought - you might take one morning when you are around and test as usual before amps, then test every 20-30 minutes to see if you can determine when the insulin is onsetting. Might be helpful to know, although probably not essential. You know it's in the first 2 hours.

When a cat is close to OTJ but the preshots remain higher than desirable, we suggest people give just a small snack - I think of a teaspoon - at +9ish. That is enough to stimulate the pancreas to put out a little bit of insulin, but not enough to raise blood sugar on its own. About 3 hours later the blood sugar typically comes down a bit - IF the pancreas is putting out some insulin.

This is very much an ECID area. Some cats are extremely carb sensitive, some less so. Take good notes in your comments section so you can analyze what you learn. My take away from your experiment today is that you might want to increase the carbs at the shot time slightly to see if you can prevent that immediate drop.

When I think of metabolizing quickly, I think of it as being used up quickly. For example, some cats get as little as 8 hours of duration out of Lantus, while others get 12 hours out of it. I would describe the 8 hr cats as metabolizing the insulin faster than the others. In Radar's case, he seems to be onsetting early - which seems a little different to me. Just thinking out loud.

Good job with your experiment today! Even though he dropped a fair amount in the first hour, it did end up being a flatter cycle than usual.

 

[Jan Radar (GA)]

One thought - you might take one morning when you are around and test as usual before amps, then test every 20-30 minutes to see if you can determine when the insulin is onsetting. Might be helpful to know, although probably not essential. You know it's in the first 2 hours.

When a cat is close to OTJ but the preshots remain higher than desirable, we suggest people give just a small snack - I think of a teaspoon - at +9ish. That is enough to stimulate the pancreas to put out a little bit of insulin, but not enough to raise blood sugar on its own. About 3 hours later the blood sugar typically comes down a bit - IF the pancreas is putting out some insulin.

This is very much an ECID area. Some cats are extremely carb sensitive, some less so. Take good notes in your comments section so you can analyze what you learn. My take away from your experiment today is that you might want to increase the carbs at the shot time slightly to see if you can prevent that immediate drop.

When I think of metabolizing quickly, I think of it as being used up quickly. For example, some cats get as little as 8 hours of duration out of Lantus, while others get 12 hours out of it. I would describe the 8 hr cats as metabolizing the insulin faster than the others. In Radar's case, he seems to be onsetting early - which seems a little different to me. Just thinking out loud.

Good job with your experiment today! Even though he dropped a fair amount in the first hour, it did end up being a flatter cycle than usual.

Your thoughts are interesting and worth more contemplation... I am very curious about that +9 snack and will explore that area a bit. I have started a food notebook where I'm keeping careful notes. Will just have to find time to add them to our ss. I can't think of any question right now but am sure some will pop up.

 

[julie & punkin (ga)]

I mentioned the +9 snack because of Mog's comments about the pancreas releasing insulin. What I have seen here on the board is that it works best in cats that are near OTJ or are OTJ. That's why I said "IF" a cat's pancreas is sputtering out some insulin. I don't know if it would do the same in Radar.

 

[Jan Radar (GA)]

I mentioned the +9 snack because of Mog's comments about the pancreas releasing insulin. What I have seen here on the board is that it works best in cats that are near OTJ or are OTJ. That's why I said "IF" a cat's pancreas is sputtering out some insulin. I don't know if it would do the same in Radar.

It is an interesting thing to consider.... the mysteries of Radar's pancreas are locked and the key may never be found but I am willing to look.

 

[Bobbie And Bubba]

Nice experimenting and I hope that some light is shed on Radar's cycle. The strategic feeding is a lot of trial and error because of EVID thing .