Ideal curve

EttaD

EttaD

Member Since 2025
Is there an ideal peak and nadir for our kitties? Mine is all over the place. His peaks are super high for a few cycles then impressive and then super high again. He’s on 2 units. I’m thinking he is bouncing. The vet thinks it’s that it goes up when the insulin wears off. I’m thinking of lowering him to 1.5 for a week to see how he does. Any advice?
 
Hello Etta! I hope you’re doing well. Happy New Year.

Some observations on Buddy’s spreadsheet — he earned a reduction to 1.75 units on 12/31 when he had a 52, so 1.75 should be his dose right now. That new dose should be held for 7 days unless

Also, it's a good time to talk about bouncing. High numbers do not always mean more insulin is required (or less insulin either) and we must be careful. The high numbers you are seeing now — in between the good numbers— are bounces.

A bounce is where the cat's body reacts to lower numbers that he is not used to being in anymore... since becoming diabetic. They also can occur when the BG drops too rapidly in a short period of time. Bouncing is a protective mechanism where the cat's central nervous system perceives either a steep drop in blood glucose or simply the cat being in lower numbers - and releases adrenaline, cortisol, glucagons and growth hormone, all of which create insulin resistance and can keep numbers high for up to six cycles (the bounce). Bounces don't have to last that long, but in some cats they will. Over time, many cats will start to clear the bounces more quickly. When the bounce does clear, the BG numbers will come back down and give us an accurate picture of what a dose is doing for the cat.
 
So with the earned reduction, please reduce Buddy’s dose at his next shot (tonight) to 1.75 units and hold it at 1.75 for 7 days unless he again drops below 90. With SLGS, a dose reduction is earned when kitty drops below 90. You are using an Alpha Trak meter, correct? With the AT meter, we do not want Buddy dropping below 68 and if he does drop below 68, please give him a teaspoon of high carb wet food such as Fancy Feast Gravy Lovers and retest in 20 minutes. Continue doing this until his BG is above 68 and keep testing to make sure his BG doesn’t drop back down. If he doesn’t respond to the HC food then give karo syrup. I always found it to be much easier to mix karo syrup with water in about a 50/50 ratio and to administer it with a 3 cc oral liquid dosing syringe — directing it in toward the gums — it is much easier and less messy than trying to just get it into your cat’s mouth. Sometimes you can just mix a drop or karo into the food to bump up the carbs a little more. We definitely do not want Buddy below 68 and most definitely not in the 50s on your AT meter (50s would be okay on a human meter like the ReliOn.)
 
This is great. Thank you. We are using the Contour Next meter now. We switched on December 23. I’ll give the 1.75 a try. A bit of a challenge because there isn’t a mark for that. I really appreciate the guidance.
 
EttaD said:
This is great. Thank you. We are using the Contour Next meter now. We switched on December 23. I’ll give the 1.75 a try. A bit of a challenge because there isn’t a mark for that. I really appreciate the guidance.
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Thanks for updating your signature saying Contour Next and taking off the Prednisolone weaning. He’s completely off of it now?
 
So with the human meter, and following SLGS, reductions still should be taken at numbers below 90. With dry food in the picture he needs to stick with SLGS. The difference now with the human meter is that you won’t use high carbs like I described unless he drops below 50.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
So with the human meter, and following SLGS, reductions still should be taken at numbers below 90. With dry food in the picture he needs to stick with SLGS. The difference now with the human meter is that you won’t use high carbs like I described unless he drops below 50.
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His dry - which he only gets a couple of tablespoons day and overnight - is SquarePet which is 9% carbs.
 
EttaD said:
The vet thinks it’s that it goes up when the insulin wears off.
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With regard to this, you are actually getting pretty decent duration from the ProZinc. You can test this and see how he is doing at about +10. I am still seeing good numbers for him (on the good days) later in the cycle. One way to help get the best duration is to not feed after +6 and to feed most of his food earlier in the cycle (the +2 and +4 snacks.) I hope he is getting those snacks.
 
Since we don’t have any night time data on Buddy, it is a little hard to interpret his spr. We can’t tell if he’s staying high all night if he starts out in red or if he actually is dropping down (which would mean that he’s not really in a true bounce.)

Many cats tend to drop into lower numbers at night so it’s important for several reasons to get at least a “before bed test.)
 
EttaD said:
Because we are trying to get him to gain weight, he gets fed at regular intervals through the day. Most of those small snacks are low-carb wet.
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I do understand this. If he’s absolutely frantic for food you can give a small amount after nadir. What most people do is to assess exactly how much food (and how many calories) you want him to eat in a day and then divide it up into the meals — with the largest amount of food being given at the breakfast/dinner meals and then splitting up the remainder of the food at the +2, +4 and +6 (this one being optional and the smaller portion of the meals). This way the cat is getting the amount of calories needed each day. The snacks are important to have during the early half of the night time cycle as well. Many members use automatic feeders to dispense the snacks at night.

What are his shot times and how long after his p.m. shot do you typically go to sleep?
 
EttaD said:
His dry - which he only gets a couple of tablespoons day and overnight - is SquarePet which is 9% carbs.
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I had not heard of this food before. Chewy.com reports that dry food as being 12.3 percent carbs on a dry matter basis (which is the value that is used to determine carb percentage.). So that is actually a medium carb food. Dr. Elsey’s Clean Protein chicken flavor is 4 percent carbs on a dry matter basis.
 
EttaD said:
Because we are trying to get him to gain weight, he gets fed at regular intervals through the day. Most of those small snacks are low-carb wet.
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Suzanne & Darcy said:
I do understand this. If he’s absolutely frantic for food you can give a small amount after nadir. What most people do is to assess exactly how much food (and how many calories) you want him to eat in a day and then divide it up into the meals — with the largest amount of food being given at the breakfast/dinner meals and then splitting up the remainder of the food at the +2, +4 and +6 (this one being optional and the smaller portion of the meals). This way the cat is getting the amount of calories needed each day. The snacks are important to have during the early half of the night time cycle as well. Many members use automatic feeders to dispense the snacks at night.

What are his shot times and how long after his p.m. shot do you typically go to sleep?
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He gets his evening shot about 3 hours before bed. I tried not feeding him after nadir and didn’t see a difference. We are experimenting. I think he goes lower at night and is bouncing. Doesn’t make sense that he would stay high all night and not the day.
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I had not heard of this food before. Chewy.com reports that dry food as being 12.3 percent carbs on a dry matter basis (which is the value that is used to determine carb percentage.). So that is actually a medium carb food. Dr. Elsey’s Clean Protein chicken flavor is 4 percent carbs on a dry matter basis.
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we don’t her Dr Elsey’s in Canada.

He gets his evening shot about 3 hours before bed. I tried not feeding him after nadir and didn’t see a difference. We are experimenting. I think he goes lower at night and is bouncing. Doesn’t make sense that he would stay high all night and not the day.
 
I’m sure the carbs are coming from the potatoes.
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EttaD said:
Doesn’t make sense that he would stay high all night and not the day.
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I do see this pattern in some cats. Their “bounces just aren’t lasting very long (which is a good thing.) But if you could make a habit of getting a +3 before bed, we would be able to interpret things much more accurately. Also, if the +3 is lower than expected (especially when compared to where he usually is during the daytime) it will let you know that you should set an alarm for yourself to check him during the night and prevent him from dropping too low.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I do see this pattern in some cats. Their “bounces just aren’t lasting very long (which is a good thing.) But if you could make a habit of getting a +3 before bed, we would be able to interpret things much more accurately. Also, if the +3 is lower than expected (especially when compared to where he usually is during the daytime) it will let you know that you should set an alarm for yourself to check him during the night and prevent him from dropping too low.
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I’m working on being able to test on my own and then I will get that +3 test. He gets a snack at about +4 overnight with the auto feeder
 
EttaD said:
bed. I tried not feeding him after nadir and didn’t see a difference.
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You won’t see any difference on days he is running higher, of course. And since there are only 12 days of data on his spreadsheet so far — and some of those days he appears to be bouncing— it’s really not enough data to say whether or not it made a difference. We would be looking at trends over time. If you want to feed him after his nadir then fine. Like I said, if he’s frantic for food and he is underweight then go ahead and feed him. I know what that is like. But if he’s calm and/or sleeping, I wouldn’t go out of my way to feed him. Also, do not feed for two hours prior to the morning or evening tests since we don’t want those tests to be inflated by food. You want an accurate fasting glucose number so you know what you’re shooting, You probably were already aware of that “two hour window” but just since we were on the subject of feeding, I thought I would mention it.
 
The most important snack is the +2 since that is when the ProZinc tends to onset for most cats. I am not trying to be annoying. And I am not picking the snack times at random. Spreading out a few snacks during the first half of the cycle when the ProZinc is most active can really help smooth the cycle— preventing steep drops and therefore helping to prevent bounces.

I always say that the feeding schedule can be adjusted for each individual cat though.
 
I think you are doing a great job in a short period of time since he was diagnosed! Well done!

Aside from the numbers, how is Buddy doing— is he happy? Energy wise how does he seem to you? Is his appetite good? How does he act when in the blues and greens? Drinking and litter box use… how are those? I hope he is starting to feel a lot better.
 
EttaD said:
I’m working on being able to test on my own and then I will get that +3 test.
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It’s a process, I know, and as I said, I think you’ve done a great job to be getting up to speed on all this stuff in a short period of time. I can tell how much you love Buddy because of this. Many people are not so dedicated to helping their cats… and it is a lot of work… there’s no denying it. :bighug:
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
I think you are doing a great job in a short period of time since he was diagnosed! Well done!

Aside from the numbers, how is Buddy doing— is he happy? Energy wise how does he seem to you? Is his appetite good? How does he act when in the blues and greens? Drinking and litter box use… how are those? I hope he is starting to feel a lot better.
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Thanks very much. He is his old self again even more so than when he was on the Senvelgo. His appetite is good. He is no longer starving all the time. He spends time with us. And he’s gaining weight. We are quite thrilled with his turnaround.
 
EttaD said:
Thanks very much. He is his old self again even more so than when he was on the Senvelgo. His appetite is good. He is no longer starving all the time. He spends time with us. And he’s gaining weight. We are quite thrilled with his turnaround.
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Oh that makes me happy to hear this! This is the reason for it all (and the reason I am still here on the FDMB.) ❤️
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
Oh that makes me happy to hear this! This is the reason for it all (and the reason I am still here on the FDMB.) ❤️
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Please just remind me to be patient. We switched him to 1.75 this morning and he’s not curving down but his numbers are in the 200s (13.1 and 13.4 mmol). Be patient, right?
 
The flat yellow cycle yesterday looks like a bounce breaking cycle. He was probably bouncing from the blues, although you have a day with no tests after a fur shot so it’s very hard to tell. But it does look like a bounce breaking cycle with flat yellow numbers… and then he dipped down into the blue as he broke the bounce. Unfortunately, you did not shoot enough insulin last night, which I do understand because of his PMPS number. I would not have cut the dose more than a quarter unit — I would’ve shot 1.5 units and then got a test to see how things went. It appears that 1.25 units was not enough insulin. However, it’s all a learning process as you test and gather data. So it’s all okay. We learn from gradually collecting data. Let’s see where his AMPS is this morning
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
The flat yellow cycle yesterday looks like a bounce breaking cycle. He was probably bouncing from the blues, although you have a day with no tests after a fur shot so it’s very hard to tell. But it does look like a bounce breaking cycle with flat yellow numbers… and then he dipped down into the blue as he broke the bounce. Unfortunately, you did not shoot enough insulin last night, which I do understand because of his PMPS number. I would not have cut the dose more than a quarter unit — I would’ve shot 1.5 units and then got a test to see how things went. It appears that 1.25 units was not enough insulin. However, it’s all a learning process as you test and gather data. So it’s all okay. We learn from gradually collecting data. Let’s see where his AMPS is this morning
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The learning is a bit painful. He was at 22 this AM. On the fur shot day, we did a test at +7 and he was at 25.8 (I forgot to enter it). I was not brave enough last night. Sigh.
 
Suzanne & Darcy said:
So with the human meter, and following SLGS, reductions still should be taken at numbers below 90. With dry food in the picture he needs to stick with SLGS. The difference now with the human meter is that you won’t use high carbs like I described unless he drops below 50.
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He dropped down to 65 today on the human meter - so drop by another .25 tonight to 1.5?
 
@Suzanne & Darcy Buddy dipped down yesterday to 65 yesterday, so we dropped his dose by another .25 to 1.5 units. Today he is a bit high at 301 at +5 - is it just about adjusting to the lower dose or did I move too quickly?
 
Hi just piping in to say you were right to reduce to 1.5 per SLGL, todays high numbers look like a bounce from that nice green yesterday
 
EttaD said:
@Suzanne & Darcy Buddy dipped down yesterday to 65 yesterday, so we dropped his dose by another .25 to 1.5 units. Today he is a bit high at 301 at +5 - is it just about adjusting to the lower dose or did I move too quickly?
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You did the right thing to reduce the dose. With SLGS dosing method you would reduce. Good call. 65 is a safe number on your Contour meter though, so no worries about that. Let’s give the new dose some time to settle. He probably is bouncing from the green number since he’s not used to being in normal BG anymore.
 
If you had gotten a test at +2 or +3 you would’ve had a heads up that he was dropping lower and you could’ve made sure he ate perhaps a little more…. But he wasn’t in any danger so all is well.
 
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