Nico 2.0 | Page 3 | Feline Diabetes Message Board - FDMB

Nico 2.0

You can post on Health and ask for help on the Relion meter. Many people use that brand and can help you troubleshoot. Did you look in the instruction manual for what the error code means and how to correct it? The most common errors are not enough blood on the test strip and the meter timing out before you get blood onto the test strip.

Relion isn't the only brand out there. Any Human blood glucose meter works. I use the AccuChek Guide, previously the Aviva.

A meter that uses a 03 microliter drop size is ideal. Here's a chart:


blood-drop-size-png.55816
 
You can post on Health and ask for help on the Relion meter. Many people use that brand and can help you troubleshoot. Did you look in the instruction manual for what the error code means and how to correct it? The most common errors are not enough blood on the test strip and the meter timing out before you get blood onto the test strip.

Relion isn't the only brand out there. Any Human blood glucose meter works. I use the AccuChek Guide, previously the Aviva.

A meter that uses a 03 microliter drop size is ideal. Here's a chart:


blood-drop-size-png.55816
Aw man. I bought the Relion one as I'd heard it's used a lot and really accurate. I was trying to find something with least amount of blood to be used & thought I'd found it. But I think it requires 0.5. I'm pretty sure the error is due to the amount of blood. My pet meter is like yours. Only needing 0.3. So thanks for the info. I'm still going to wait until he's in the clear, if ever, to try the human one again. But the pet ones are supposed to be the most accurate, correct? So I know I'm doing the right thing with this for now?
Thanks!
 
Got it. I'll go sit in there with him as soon as my husband wakes up to try and catch his pee again. Heck if I want another reason to stick him. :(
Is the +4 & +6 the right time I'm supposed to be doing the blood glucose testing? I was pretty sure that's what you'd said a while ago on the other thread.
Well there’s nothing magical about +4 and +6 except that we are trying to catch his nadir. You can vary it a little if you want to and get a +5 instead of a +4 on one day and a +3 and +5 on a different day.

Right now it seems like he is nadiring before +6 because he frequently has bounced back up by that time. Over time that should hopefully change… where his nadir comes a little later.
 
Aw man. I bought the Relion one as I'd heard it's used a lot and really accurate. I was trying to find something with least amount of blood to be used & thought I'd found it. But I think it requires 0.5. I'm pretty sure the error is due to the amount of blood. My pet meter is like yours. Only needing 0.3. So thanks for the info. I'm still going to wait until he's in the clear, if ever, to try the human one again. But the pet ones are supposed to be the most accurate, correct? So I know I'm doing the right thing with this for now?
Thanks!
Pet meters are not more “accurate” but they do measure differently (using a different algorithm) that’s all. And they tend to read a little higher. Our dosing protocols were designed, studied, and tested before pet meters were invented and all vets used human meters in their own practices— before someone figured out how to market expensive pet meters to pet owners with the ongoing costs of expensive strips that you have to buy constantly. We will buy anything we can afford for our fur babies as long as we think it’s the best! There’s nothing wrong with using a pet meter and nothing wrong with using a human meter. Most of our members like having the freedom to test frequently without worrying about the cost of test strips.

Having said that, if your meter is right now working for you then we are going with that!

And since Nico is skittish I believe we already talked about not using the clicky lancing device. I don’t think you are using it, right?

I know I already gave some tips about how to keep the ReliOn meter from “timing out.”

Anyway, we are going with your pet meters for the foreseeable future 🙂 It’s perfectly adequate and you are able to make it work.
 
But at 551 around his nadir? That's awful! And thanks for talking about switching sometimes. I can try that tomorrow. That's just a horrible peak number. :(
Am I to still be getting the +4 after the pm shot?
 
551 at his +4 testing. What am I doing wrong? 😭
You are not doing anything wrong! Test again at +5 or 6 and see if anything is happening. He could just be bouncing from the pink last night (which could have dipped a little lower into pink). His body is very comfortable in black. Anything as low as something in the 300s could definitely cause a bounce reaction.
 
Well, how late after his evening shot do you usually stay up? If you hadn’t taken that +4 test last night we never would have seen the pink! That pink probably explains what we are seeing today. He could surprise you though with a lower number later in the cycle. Or he could stay obstinately in black.
 
You can post on Health and ask for help on the Relion meter. Many people use that brand and can help you troubleshoot. Did you look in the instruction manual for what the error code means and how to correct it? The most common errors are not enough blood on the test strip and the meter timing out before you get blood onto the test strip.

Relion isn't the only brand out there. Any Human blood glucose meter works. I use the AccuChek Guide, previously the Aviva.

A meter that uses a 03 microliter drop size is ideal. Here's a chart:


blood-drop-size-png.55816
I do like that blood droplet size graphic. I wonder if it looks smaller on my phone screen though? The .3 is a speck (way smaller than a pin head say.) Even on my worst day I could get more blood out of Darcy’s ear than that.
 
Two thoughts:

Regarding diet, fresh roast or raw chicken makes my cat go into the stratosphere. Chicken is a common protein that cats can be sensitive to. Can you try switching to a different protein, something without chicken? I feed my diabetic cat the Nulo pates that don't have chicken. Anything like chicken, as well, like duck, turkey and quail, makes my cat soar.

About getting enough blood, are you positioning the lancet at an angle, something around 45 degrees? It took me a while to figure this out. Going in straight from above gets less blood.

Best wishes for getting those #s down!
 
I've finally gotten getting his ear down. That 45° angle made a LOT of difference. I had been doing it straight up originally.
As for the food, he doesn't have any sensitivities luckily. Were you saying that yours is sensitive and that's why his numbers go up? Or that chicken in general causes spikes? He's currently eating pork. He doesn't seem to have any problems with chicken, but it's currently eating pork. Maybe I should try putting him back on the chicken and he'd do better? Guess it can't hurt to try just for the heck of it. He eats SO much though. I looked up at Viva Raw and it says a 9lb not very active cat should be eating 4oz a day? I weigh his food before cooking and he's eating 6oz of pork per day. And he's still been eating a little bit of dry (young again zero) on top of that! He's so starved all the time. :( I feed him 6x a day. Before shot, then at the +2 & +4. I take the BG test before the food of course.
Guess I'll take out his chicken & try?
 
Two thoughts:

Regarding diet, fresh roast or raw chicken makes my cat go into the stratosphere. Chicken is a common protein that cats can be sensitive to. Can you try switching to a different protein, something without chicken? I feed my diabetic cat the Nulo pates that don't have chicken. Anything like chicken, as well, like duck, turkey and quail, makes my cat soar.

About getting enough blood, are you positioning the lancet at an angle, something around 45 degrees? It took me a while to figure this out. Going in straight from above gets less blood.

Best wishes for getting those #s down!
Hey … which Nulo pates don’t have chicken? This is for an IBD cat I am asking and not diabetic. Are they single protein? No turkey or duck in them either?
 
I've finally gotten getting his ear down. That 45° angle made a LOT of difference. I had been doing it straight up originally.
As for the food, he doesn't have any sensitivities luckily. Were you saying that yours is sensitive and that's why his numbers go up? Or that chicken in general causes spikes? He's currently eating pork. He doesn't seem to have any problems with chicken, but it's currently eating pork. Maybe I should try putting him back on the chicken and he'd do better? Guess it can't hurt to try just for the heck of it. He eats SO much though. I looked up at Viva Raw and it says a 9lb not very active cat should be eating 4oz a day? I weigh his food before cooking and he's eating 6oz of pork per day. And he's still been eating a little bit of dry (young again zero) on top of that! He's so starved all the time. :( I feed him 6x a day. Before shot, then at the +2 & +4. I take the BG test before the food of course.
Guess I'll take out his chicken & try?
You can always try different proteins and see if it makes a difference. I know quite a few people whose cats have higher numbers with beef, for example. Every cat is different.

Do I think what we are seeing with his high numbers is down to food. No. But it’s possible he may het slightly lower BG IF he’s sensitive to a particular protein.

I just don’t want you to be disappointed, but it’s worth trying different food combinations. You’re not going to see a 100 point drop from switching foods alone.
 
Hey … which Nulo pates don’t have chicken? This is for an IBD cat I am asking and not diabetic. Are they single protein? No turkey or duck in them either?

For Nulo, Here's what has no chicken:
* Salmon & Mackerel Pate
* Beef & Lamb Pate
* Shredded Turkey & Halibut

the rest have either chicken, or chicken fat listed somewhere in the ingredients.

Something I've had luck with my cat liking, which does not containing chicken, are some of the B.F.F. pouches, which are tuna-heavy, specifically:
* Tuna & Beef Baby Cakes
* Tuna & Duck Devour Me
* Tuna & Lamb Luv Ya

I'm mentioning chicken because I found out, with my first diabetic cat, that chicken and beef are proteins that many cats can develop a sensitivity to. After making a raw beef diet for my cat for years, I now suspect that I caused him to have long-term pancreatitis that developed into diabetes, through my well-meaning ignorance. So now I pay a lot of attention to the protein source, and try elimination diets if I suspect something. (And all those gums aren't doing cats any favors, but that's another topic 😼...)

About turkey and duck, all the Nulo foods I see that don't have chicken, do have turkey or duck! Turkey's the 2nd ingredient in the Beef & Lamb pate.
But the B.F.F. pouches, although not single proteins, are explicit about which ones contain, turkey, duck or chicken.

There are foods like Canada Fresh - Red Meat that fit the bill, with just beef, beef liver, beef broth, lamb
 
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Also, I have had a lot of ibd kitties than I'd care to admit. One wet food I used had only rabbit as a protein and no gums in it. Instinct rabbit limited ingredient.
Is that raw? I won’t feed raw to an FIV+ cat. And they keep finding nasty organisms in the raw foods. My only qualms about rabbit is that it is naturally high in phosphorus.
 
Is that raw? I won’t feed raw to an FIV+ cat. And they keep finding nasty organisms in the raw foods. My only qualms about rabbit is that it is naturally high in phosphorus.
No it's not raw, just a regular cooked can food. I've had some tricky ibd cases over the years. One was so bad, the ONLY thing that helped him finally, was raw rabbit. He only lived for 3weeks after discovering and making this work. But I'd like to think we made it a little easier on him those last 3 weeks. NOTHING else worked, and we tried 8yrs to make him better.
We started with Viva Raw, but both their phos & iodine levels were too high. He was also an HT kitty, and it was knocking his numbers out of whack. Reason they're so high in phosphorous, is because it's hard to debone rabbits apparently. So I found the company Raw Feeding Miami & his thyroid numbers came back down.
And if you buy human grade, your don't run into a lot of the same problems. Not as much regulation by far. ;) RFM sells boneless rabbit (for a premium price.
 
No it's not raw, just a regular cooked can food. I've had some tricky ibd cases over the years. One was so bad, the ONLY thing that helped him finally, was raw rabbit. He only lived for 3weeks after discovering and making this work. But I'd like to think we made it a little easier on him those last 3 weeks. NOTHING else worked, and we tried 8yrs to make him better.
We started with Viva Raw, but both their phos & iodine levels were too high. He was also an HT kitty, and it was knocking his numbers out of whack. Reason they're so high in phosphorous, is because it's hard to debone rabbits apparently. So I found the company Raw Feeding Miami & his thyroid numbers came back down.
And if you buy human grade, your don't run into a lot of the same problems. Not as much regulation by far. ;) RFM sells boneless rabbit (for a premium price.
I have an FIV+ boy who has IBD. We did surgical biopsies in September 2024. He’s been on Prednisolone ever since. At first I didn’t change his diet, he was just eating the same thing as before which was Weruva BFF pate (Chicken, Duck and Turkey Take a Chance for the most part) because I kept researching and trying to fond him food and thre was always something wrong with them that kept me from buying it (high phosphorus or high carbs or too many peas and lentils or chick peas, etc.) I would not buy the hydrolyzed protein foods because they were super high carb (like 40 percent). I was afraid he would become diabetic when combined with the Prednisolone. He kept eating and eating and losing weight. His appetite was good. I switched him over to an all beef diet and he liked it, at first he gained some weight but not a whole lot. We are now struggling to keep his weight up. He is becoming picky and he won’t eat more than small amounts of food at a time. Some days he looks unwell (his face looks pinched and he squints at me.) Recently we did a repeat ultrasound and the vet says his intestines are as inflamed as they were a year ago when we did the ultrasound and then the biopsies. It’s like the Prednisolone hasn’t helped his inflammation at all. He also had two cysts on his pancreas that were fluid filled. We had those removed and biopsied as well. Fortunately, they are benign. He has now been diagnosed with pancreatitis; we ran the GI panel last week. The ultrasound also showed that his gallbladder, while not having any sludge in it, appears “fuzzy” and inflamed. I feel like I am going to lose him just to weight loss. I asked about switching to Budesonide instead of Prednisolone, but I really have no idea if this is a good move for him or not. My vet doesn’t seem to have much experience using Budesonide at all. I need to do something or I am going to lose this boy.
 
I have an FIV+ boy who has IBD. We did surgical biopsies in September 2024. He’s been on Prednisolone ever since. At first I didn’t change his diet, he was just eating the same thing as before which was Weruva BFF pate (Chicken, Duck and Turkey Take a Chance for the most part) because I kept researching and trying to fond him food and thre was always something wrong with them that kept me from buying it (high phosphorus or high carbs or too many peas and lentils or chick peas, etc.) I would not buy the hydrolyzed protein foods because they were super high carb (like 40 percent). I was afraid he would become diabetic when combined with the Prednisolone. He kept eating and eating and losing weight. His appetite was good. I switched him over to an all beef diet and he liked it, at first he gained some weight but not a whole lot. We are now struggling to keep his weight up. He is becoming picky and he won’t eat more than small amounts of food at a time. Some days he looks unwell (his face looks pinched and he squints at me.) Recently we did a repeat ultrasound and the vet says his intestines are as inflamed as they were a year ago when we did the ultrasound and then the biopsies. It’s like the Prednisolone hasn’t helped his inflammation at all. He also had two cysts on his pancreas that were fluid filled. We had those removed and biopsied as well. Fortunately, they are benign. He has now been diagnosed with pancreatitis; we ran the GI panel last week. The ultrasound also showed that his gallbladder, while not having any sludge in it, appears “fuzzy” and inflamed. I feel like I am going to lose him just to weight loss. I asked about switching to Budesonide instead of Prednisolone, but I really have no idea if this is a good move for him or not. My vet doesn’t seem to have much experience using Budesonide at all. I need to do something or I am going to lose this boy.
I am so sorry. Are they sure it's nothing else? This sounds like my sweet boy last year. He was the one that had to be on raw rabbit and also had HT. No matter what he did or how much he ate, he kept losing. He got down to just under 6lbs his last visit when the other doc (mine was on holiday of course) broke it to me with his labs they'd just done.....
"I think he has bone marrow cancer and I think we should talk s about letting him go". I did, but man did it suck. I was raised in the type of home you don't cry, but no one in this world has seen me cry more than the vets.
I hope it's nothing like that. I've also had 2 with scl gi and now the doctor suspects another might as well. I'm tell you 1 think that helped change the first cancer girl's' life around.. Cbd. She was on chirp once a week, and pred2. 5 nightly. The pred stopped her from throwing up daily, which she was doing before the chemo. Ever since I brought her home from the shelter. She was on that for 3.5yrs until I researched cbd. After only a week I saw positive changes in her. After 2weeks she was doing so well, I decided to take her off the steroids. She never went back on them. She did great and never threw up again. Cbd, to me, it's a wonder supplement. I've treated several cats with it for varying reasons. It's helped that one with anxiety, arthritis, upset stomach, & inflammation. The inflammation is why I wanted to start it. She was a new cat after being on that.
I also had a cat that had barely any teeth left, and suffered from stomatitis. Poor fella would have at least once a month flare ups of drooling, stinky breath, and sometimes blood in his drool. Stomatitis is an inflammation of the gums, so I tried it on him next. He only took 1.5mg twice a day, and I don't remember how long it took, but it was good Fix! Didn't cure him of course, but he never had the symptoms again in the 2yrs he saw on it. It was great.
So perhaps cbd would be a viable option for your guy too? I've used it on multiple cats, always for inflammation issues, and it seems to gel them all. Only side effects known from it (cast cbd had no thc in it), is lethargy or over grooming. I had 2 that did the over grooming one. I just took them back down a little and that was that. I think I'm general they can have up to 7.5-10mg twice a day? It's been a while since I've had any needing it. But it had definitely helped them. 2 got it for their inflamed intestines. Best thing is, it helps so many things. Inflammation, anxiety, general aches and pains (such as associated with arthritis), nausea, and works as a natural appetite stimulant. Helps a lot of different things & no side effects like the drugs prescribed. Who knows? Maybe the cbd can replace the pred like it did in mine. Then he could be allowed foods with higher carbs. The only other food I had found with no poultry or fish that helped the ibd ones, was Essence Ranch and Meadow. But I had to feed the dry, and it was loaded in carbs. Don't know about the wet. I will say the Essence changed that same guy's kidney failure around though. He was on an app wet fancy feast plate diet for years before being diagnosed kidney failure. I couldn't change the food, as it's what the doctor said was good for her. But then a few months later, v his early stage 1 turned to stage 3. So I threw away all the old ways and went against the vet and with newer research. I have him Essence, which is a high meat protein diet with (in my opinion) pretty high carbs. Wasn't aiming fir high carbs. Just the quality, high meat protein diet. The research said kidney cats are fed the opposite of what they really need. Protein. Hence they waste away to nothing. At that point he had been on fluids every other day and Ondansetron twice daily. After 2mo of switching his diet to the dry version, he started fighting me with fluids I noticed he's gained some weight back, so took him in. All his labs showed he'd went from stage 3 to stage 1. Brought him back 2mo for more tests and recheck. Early stage 1. When he's been on for 6months, back for testing, clean bill of health. Infirmary he'd become tubby from the food. :/ And the next set of tests were 6mo after that. Still good. I go with newer science nowadays when I can. Unfortunately most all vets were taught old science. :/
My one that's suspected scl gi now, I'm thinking of trying get on fenbendazole, to see if she responds well to it. Always think outside the box if you can.
Has yours had any tests that would show any different types of cancer? I wish that in none, but it seems to be happening more and more in our cats. Blame cat food industry on that 100%.
 
@Suzanne & Darcy please don't let your vet's ignorance about Budesonide stop you from trying it. It targets inflammation in a cat's intestinal tract, and is much easier on their body overall. (Worked and continues to work wonders for Luciole.)

And Slippery Elm. Really helps and is worth trying in case you haven't yet.
 
Yes. I am going to try the Budesonide. It’s been ordered. When he was first diagnosed with IBD, I inquired about it and she wanted to try the Prednisolone instead. But as long as his liver is functioning well (and right now it is) I want to try the switch to Budesonide and see if it will help his intestinal inflammation with less overall systemic side effects. Now it won’t help with inflammation anywhere else, but it is also easier on the pancreas than Prednisolone — and he has pancreatitis so steroids can be a no no for that. Heck, I don’t know that the Prednisolone hasn’t caused the pancreatitis.

Budesonide is primarily metabolized in the liver, where it undergoes a process that significantly reduces its active form. I find this so fascinating that approximately 80-90% of budesonide is metabolized during its first pass through the liver. This means that a large portion of the drug is converted into inactive metabolites before it enters systemic circulation.

Yes. I have used slippery elm before, just not on Marcus. I may try it on the days he seems uncomfortable.

Did you always start with Budesonide or did you transition from another steroid? I am wondering now how we will transition. Will it be best to start with a daily dose and taper off? I don’t yet know.
 
I've heard milk thistle works wonders for the liver
It does. I use Denamarin, which includes silymarin, the beneficial ingredient in milk thistle and S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) to help increase levels of glutathion (a liver detoxifying antioxidant.). I have had amazing results with it in cats. For people who can’t give pills to their cats though, a powdered milk thistle with a high concentration of silymarin is a good alternative (mixed in food.)
 
It does. I use Denamarin, which includes silymarin, the beneficial ingredient in milk thistle and S-adenosylmethionine (SAMe) to help increase levels of glutathion (a liver detoxifying antioxidant.). I have had amazing results with it in cats. For people who can’t give pills to their cats though, a powdered milk thistle with a high concentration of silymarin is a good alternative (mixed in food.)
Do I need to with about what the insulin is doing to any organs of my diabetic baby?😬
 
Well, I cannot tell a lie. You already know, I think, that high BG is not good for the organs. But that’s why we are fast tracking Nico’s dose right now. We have to get him out of those reds and blacks for a major portion of the day/night.
 
Yes. I am going to try the Budesonide. It’s been ordered. When he was first diagnosed with IBD, I inquired about it and she wanted to try the Prednisolone instead. But as long as his liver is functioning well (and right now it is) I want to try the switch to Budesonide and see if it will help his intestinal inflammation with less overall systemic side effects. Now it won’t help with inflammation anywhere else, but it is also easier on the pancreas than Prednisolone — and he has pancreatitis so steroids can be a no no for that. Heck, I don’t know that the Prednisolone hasn’t caused the pancreatitis.

Budesonide is primarily metabolized in the liver, where it undergoes a process that significantly reduces its active form. I find this so fascinating that approximately 80-90% of budesonide is metabolized during its first pass through the liver. This means that a large portion of the drug is converted into inactive metabolites before it enters systemic circulation.

Yes. I have used slippery elm before, just not on Marcus. I may try it on the days he seems uncomfortable.

Did you always start with Budesonide or did you transition from another steroid? I am wondering now how we will transition. Will it be best to start with a daily dose and taper off? I don’t yet know.

My vet, who is pretty awesome, started Lu off on Pred to get her inflammation under control. We tapered her dosage down, and then switched her over to Budesonide, and then tapered the dosage down. She's now at the smallest dosage possible, which is once every 3 days, and she'll be on it for the rest of her life. The Pred really helped, but as soon as she started taking the Budesonide, she really felt a lot better, regained her appetite, put on weight, and returned to her sassy self.

And, in other news, I ordered some Rawz rabbit food for Lu, remembering that you were asking about novel protein foods. 96% rabbit, and no guar gum.
 
Well, I cannot tell a lie. You already know, I think, that high BG is not good for the organs. But that’s why we are fast tracking Nico’s dose right now. We have to get him out of those reds and blacks for a major portion of the day/night.
I meant the insulin I'm putting into him? My neighbors dog had diabetes and she takes Denamarin too. Why I asked.
 
My vet, who is pretty awesome, started Lu off on Pred to get her inflammation under control. We tapered her dosage down, and then switched her over to Budesonide, and then tapered the dosage down. She's now at the smallest dosage possible, which is once every 3 days, and she'll be on it for the rest of her life. The Pred really helped, but as soon as she started taking the Budesonide, she really felt a lot better, regained her appetite, put on weight, and returned to her sassy self.

And, in other news, I ordered some Rawz rabbit food for Lu, remembering that you were asking about novel protein foods. 96% rabbit, and no guar gum.
But it’s raw, right?
 
Do I need to with about what the insulin is doing to any organs of my diabetic baby?😬
Unless Nico has high liver enzymes (ALT, ALP, AST, and GGT) on his bloodwork, then you don’t need to give a liver supplement like Denamarin or Milk Thistle unless you just want to for protective purposes.
 
@Suzanne & Darcy Have you looked at Ziwi Peak Vension for Marcus? That was the only thing I could find that was truly novel protein limited ingredient and with no carrageenan or gums. It was a game changer for my last IBD cat, although many cats don’t seem to like it. It does have New Zealand Green Mussel and chickpeas, though, so perhaps a no-go for your guy??

I’ve used both prednisolone and budesonide on IBD cats. Both threw Charlie back into diabetes, despite budesonide’s impact being theoretically less systemic. But my other IBD cat did fine on steroids. I hope you find something that helps.
 
@Suzanne & Darcy Have you looked at Ziwi Peak Vension for Marcus? That was the only thing I could find that was truly novel protein limited ingredient and with no carrageenan or gums. It was a game changer for my last IBD cat, although many cats don’t seem to like it. It does have New Zealand Green Mussel and chickpeas, though, so perhaps a no-go for your guy??

I’ve used both prednisolone and budesonide on IBD cats. Both threw Charlie back into diabetes, despite budesonide’s impact being theoretically less systemic. But my other IBD cat did fine on steroids. I hope you find something that helps.
Thanks. I will look into it! 😀
 
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