Stumpy & Us

[SVickery]

Hello, just introducing myself (Sue), hubby and Stumpy. Stumpy was just diagnosed with diabetes and kidney disease on Friday. We are seeing the vet on Monday to discuss treatment etc. Our question is can you use human insulin on cats? Hubby has diabetes so is familiar with his side of things, and so we wondered whether we could use his Basaglar Kwikpen insulin. Hubby is not currently on insulin so has 4 boxes with 20 pens in each box. Also, could we use the nova needles for taking blood? Just want to get our bearings somewhat before seeing vet. Thanks so much for any help!

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Hi and welcome to the forum!
The good news is YES, you can use the Basaglar insulin for Stumpy. It is one of two recommended insulins for cats.
You will need to get some insulin syringes though to give the insulin as it is not recommended to use the pens for cats as you have to go up in 1 unit doses and we recommend going up in 1/4 unit increments. Cats are very tiny compared to humans
The syringes you will need are U100, 3/10ml, 30 or 31 gauge, 6 or 8mm insulin syringes with 1/2 unit markings. There are several different brands you can get.

I have to go and feed my lot but will be back a bit later with more info for you.
Welcome again!!

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

could we use the nova needles for taking blood?

I'm not sure what nova needles are.
To get the blood from Stumpy's ear you will need some lancets size 26 or 28 gauge. You can get these at a pharmacy.
Sounds as if you are going to test the blood glucose which is great and the only way to keep him safe.
HOMETESTING HINTS AND LINKS
And here is a FOOD CHART look for foods that are 10% or under carbs
Here are our 2 DOSING METHODS FOR LANTUS (BASAGLAR)
The normal starting dose for Basaglar is 1/2 to 1 unit twice a day and you hold that dose for 5 days to let the depot fill.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

This is how you get the insulin from the pen to the syringe. The insulin will need to be refrigerated.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

Welcome to FDMB!

I believe the Novo needles are the needle tips that are used with the insulin pens? If so, Bron provided you with the information. Since the pens dispense in 1.0u amounts, we encourage you to use a syringe. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a needle for taking blood unless you were talking about a lancet.

The lancets you may have on hand may be a bit thinner than what you want to start out with for Stumpy. It takes a few weeks for the capillary bed in your cat's ears to develop and for the ear to bleed more easily. We suggest a 26 - 28 gauge lancet to start out. Once the process is easier, you can switch to a thinner lancet (e.g., 30 gauge or so).

Hopefully, the vet will give you more information on Stumpy's kidney situation. You may want to take a look at the foods on the list Bron provided that are both low in carbohydrates and in phosphorus. Those values are on the chart. We consider low carb as under 10%, although most members feed their cat foods that are in the 5% range. There is an excellent site for information on feline kidney disease. They also have information on diet.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

@SVickery Hi Sue
Just be sure to keep the pens in the fridge middle shelf , one pen should last you about 6 months
even though the manufacturer says 28 days that's only for humans
Always aim for the sweet spot warm the ears up first, you can put rice in a sock and put it in the microwave, test it on the inside of your wrist to be sure it's not to hot, like you would test a babies bottle. You can fill a pill bottle with warm water and roll it on the ears also.Just keep rubbing the ears with your fingers to warm them up

6. As the ears get used to bleeding and grow more capilares, it gets easier to get the amount of blood you need on the first try. If he won’t stand still, you can get the blood onto a clean finger nail and test from there.
When you do get some blood you can try milking the ear.
Get you finger and gently push up toward the blood , more will appear
You will put the cotton round behind his ear in case you poke your finger, after you are done testing you will fold the cotton round over his ear to stop the bleeding , press gently for about 10 or 20 seconds until it stops
Get 26 or 28 gauge lancets
A lot of us use the lancets to test freehand notthe lancing device
I find it better to see where I'm aiming
Look at the lancet under a light and you will see one side is curved upward, that's the side you want to poke with


Low carb and low phosphorus for kidney disease

if you tap on this link and look at post #32 I listed some Weruva pates for another member that's low carb/ low phosphorus with kitties withCKD
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/new-member-11-8-and-i-am-tired.283363/#post-3124085

You want the metabolizable energy profile percentage of carbs to be less than 10%, and the phosphorus which Weruva lists in Minerals to be less than 250 mg per 100 cals. So you have to look at two different places in the Weruva charts. This is where I was told where to look by a member


You can even check out the soulistic pates
https://www.soulisticpet.com/pate
When you click in one of the flavors then click on
COMPLETE NUTRITIONAL INFORMATION (link to page)
and look at the same two places like on the weruva



You can read all the yellow stickys here about Basaglar
https://felinediabetes.com/FDMB/forums/lantus-levemir-biosimilars.9/


Hey is a video one of our members made, just ignore where she has to code the meter because she's using a pet meter, with a human meter no coding is required

VIDEO: How to test your cat's blood sugar
One thing don't ever use Neosporin on your cats ears , if they ever look a little sore you can put Pure Coconut Oil on them


I have read that many members use pure coconut oil, I have copied this from one of the members posts
just make sure the only ingredient is coconut oil (mine is solid at room temp and I would take an itty bitty dab and rub on his ears)
It seemed to help with the healing
You might be able to get it at a health food store or just Google pure coconut oil
It's fine if they lick it

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

I'm pretty sure you can get these in Canada @SVickery

 

[SVickery]

Hello, just introducing myself (Sue), hubby and Stumpy. Stumpy was just diagnosed with diabetes and kidney disease on Friday. We are seeing the vet on Monday to discuss treatment etc. Our question is can you use human insulin on cats? Hubby has diabetes so is familiar with his side of things, and so we wondered whether we could use his Basaglar Kwikpen insulin. Hubby is not currently on insulin so has 4 boxes with 20 pens in each box. Also, could we use the nova needles for taking blood? Just want to get our bearings somewhat before seeing vet. Thanks so much for any help!

Thank you so much for all the info, so helpful!

 

[SVickery]

Welcome to FDMB!

I believe the Novo needles are the needle tips that are used with the insulin pens? If so, Bron provided you with the information. Since the pens dispense in 1.0u amounts, we encourage you to use a syringe. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a needle for taking blood unless you were talking about a lancet.

The lancets you may have on hand may be a bit thinner than what you want to start out with for Stumpy. It takes a few weeks for the capillary bed in your cat's ears to develop and for the ear to bleed more easily. We suggest a 26 - 28 gauge lancet to start out. Once the process is easier, you can switch to a thinner lancet (e.g., 30 gauge or so).

Hopefully, the vet will give you more information on Stumpy's kidney situation. You may want to take a look at the foods on the list Bron provided that are both low in carbohydrates and in phosphorus. Those values are on the chart. We consider low carb as under 10%, although most members feed their cat foods that are in the 5% range. There is an excellent site for information on feline kidney disease. They also have information on diet.

Yes, I meant lancet - you'd think having a hubby with diabetes I would know all the terms by now (lol). Thanks for all the info, this will be very helpful.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Thank you so much for all the info, so helpful!

Just keep asking questions , just want you to know we have a spreadsheet where we track our cats BG and a signature that is in gray letters at the end of everyone's post
Information about our kitty.
The 2 dosing methods that you will read about will let you know when an increase or decrease is needed. If you are interested in setting them up let me know and I'll give you the links
Stumpy is a gorgeous kitty , male?
@SVickery

 

[SVickery]

Hi and welcome to the forum!
The good news is YES, you can use the Basaglar insulin for Stumpy. It is one of two recommended insulins for cats.
You will need to get some insulin syringes though to give the insulin as it is not recommended to use the pens for cats as you have to go up in 1 unit doses and we recommend going up in 1/4 unit increments. Cats are very tiny compared to humans
The syringes you will need are U100, 3/10ml, 30 or 31 gauge, 6 or 8mm insulin syringes with 1/2 unit markings. There are several different brands you can get.

I have to go and feed my lot but will be back a bit later with more info for you.
Welcome again!!

Hello again, just wondered if you had ever tried the Freestyle Libre system for monitoring BG?

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

Hello again, just wondered if you had ever tried the Freestyle Libre system for monitoring BG?

I haven’t but quite a few people here have. It only lasts 14 days ( if you are lucky) and when BG drops under 100 it can be unreliable and the BG needs to be checked manually. But it might be worth while trying

 

[SVickery]

Welcome to FDMB!

I believe the Novo needles are the needle tips that are used with the insulin pens? If so, Bron provided you with the information. Since the pens dispense in 1.0u amounts, we encourage you to use a syringe. I'm not sure what you're referring to as a needle for taking blood unless you were talking about a lancet.

The lancets you may have on hand may be a bit thinner than what you want to start out with for Stumpy. It takes a few weeks for the capillary bed in your cat's ears to develop and for the ear to bleed more easily. We suggest a 26 - 28 gauge lancet to start out. Once the process is easier, you can switch to a thinner lancet (e.g., 30 gauge or so).

Hopefully, the vet will give you more information on Stumpy's kidney situation. You may want to take a look at the foods on the list Bron provided that are both low in carbohydrates and in phosphorus. Those values are on the chart. We consider low carb as under 10%, although most members feed their cat foods that are in the 5% range. There is an excellent site for information on feline kidney disease. They also have information on diet.

Stumpy is currently on Royal Canin Urinary SO wet and dry food as he is also prone to urinary crystals. Perhaps we can continue with those foods. He's always been finicky about his food so will see what vet says.

 

[SVickery]

Just keep asking questions , just want you to know we have a spreadsheet where we track our cats BG and a signature that is in gray letters at the end of everyone's post
Information about our kitty.
The 2 dosing methods that you will read about will let you know when an increase or decrease is needed. If you are interested in setting them up let me know and I'll give you the links
Stumpy is a gorgeous kitty , male?
@SVickery

Thanks for your reply. Yes, Stumpy is neutered male, and a rescue. We found him in our garden back in 2012, started feeding and eventually brought him inside. We had 2 other cats at the time. He was tattooed but we could not locate the owner. He's had urinary problems in the past and is on special food for that. We are sure learning a lot about feline diabetes here!

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Hello again, just wondered if you had ever tried the Freestyle Libre system for monitoring BG?

@Staci & Ivy
Hi Staci can you tell Sue some information on the Libre. Thanks

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Stumpy is currently on Royal Canin Urinary SO wet and dry food as he is also prone to urinary crystals. Perhaps we can continue with those foods. He's always been finicky about his food so will see what vet says.

@SVickery

It looks like both the wet and dry are high carbs you are feeding
The wet is around 20% carbs
The dry is around 33 % carbs

We like to feed under 10% carbs
I'll give you the food chart below all the way down on the list are the prescription foods and carbs
You can ask your vet about these

I don't know if this will help you with the food
Tyler was blocked once, had to take him to the ER ,

He had struvite crystals ,I needed to change his food.

The food that was suggested by the ER was too high in carbs so I found this and have been feeding this , never raised his BG and knock on wood hadn't been blocked since

Purina Pro Plan Urinary Tract Health Beef & Chicken Entree flavor Pate

Purina Pro Plan Urinary Tract Health Chicken Entree

They are both low carb and low in phosphorus


The Purina Pro Plan Urinary Tract Health islow carb and low phosphorus
Beef and Chicken Entree pate
Carbs are around 4.80
Phosphorus is 1.44 dry matter



This is from the Chewy site where they ask questions
Turkey and Giblets should be fine also

What is the as fed basis for phosphorus and sodium?
Answer by • Sep 14, 2023
This recipe has a Sodium content of 0.23% as fed (1.02% on a dry matter basis) and a Phosphorus content of 0.31% as fed (1.36% on a dry matter basis).
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Answer This Question
What is the percentage of carbohydrates on a dry matter basis and an as fed basis? Thank you.
Answer by • Jul 19, 2023
This variety contains approximately 1.2% Carbohydrate content on an as fed basis (5.3% on a dry matter basis).

 

[Staci & Ivy]

Hi Sue, welcome and wishing you and your beautiful Stumpy lots of good luck.
I’ve been using a Libre 3 on my cat, Ivy for about 2 years and I’m very comfortable using them.
My cat doesn’t tolerate constant ear pricks.

I also test with a handheld meter when she hits “LO” readings on the Libre most especially.
As mentioned previously there is usually a discrepancy between when you see “LO” readings and what the handheld glucometer reads.
I use a Contour Next, but it could be any handheld human meter or a pet meter.
I install the sensors myself and I keep several on hand at all times because they can fail or be pulled off at any time by the cat and I don’t want to have to wait to have someone else put it on or be without data or have to take Ivy to a vet for that to be done. (It’s one more stressor for you and your cat, plus additional costs).

It’s truly not that hard to put on. You just have to follow the directions very carefully. Once you’ve done it one or two times you will be very comfortable doing it.
I keep a “tube top” on Ivy, (previously had a T-shirt on her. She just didn’t like the T-shirt). But most cats tolerate a tee shirt quite well.
Your kitty may get used to wearing a Libre (and then you maybe wouldn’t have to use a T-shirt, but then again you might always have to keep one on if he likes to pull the Libre off.)

For a Libre 3, I got Ivy her own phone that stays with her at home and I can monitor her 24/7, the data is sent directly to my own phone through the Libre Linkup App).
The phone does not require any active service so you are not paying for an additional phone line. The phone operates on Bluetooth and uses Wi-Fi to send the data to your phone so that you can monitor your cat’s sensor information at all times.
You can use an older phone model if you have one or could purchase one used.
On the Abbott website there are lists of compatible, androids, or iPhones.

***I strongly recommend learning about how to use a Libre from the Facebook group:
“Freestyle Libre for Dogs and Cats”
They have so much valuable information, guide guides, tutorials videos, and everything you will need to learn about using a Freestyle Libre sensor.

A vet’s office tends to use glue to install them, it is highly recommended not to use any glue.
The glue can flood and kill the sensor and it’s terrible on their fragile skin.

I hope this helps. Please ask questions if you have them.

 

[squeem3]

You can feed something other than the SO food. Here's some info: https://catinfo.org/feline-urinary-tract-diseases/

Increasing the water intake works for many cats. This means only feeding canned and no dry food. A few pieces of dry or a healthier crunchier option like air dried raw or freeze dried raw treats is ok for some cats who love their crunchies. Adding a d mannose supplement also seems to help. https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/apple-cider-vinegar-for-uti.297476/

I think @Wendy&Neko are in Canada as well. She can suggest some Canadian brands of low carb canned food. The Fancy Feast Gourmet pates seem to be popular and widely available in Canada and there are other brands.

 

[Sienne and Gabby (GA)]

The Royal Canin SO is 20% carb. It's very high in carbs!

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Hi there - waving at you from the west coast of BC. Stumpy is a real cutie, reminds me a lot of Neko's best buddy. He had idiopathic cystitis with crystals, diagnosed a week after Neko's FD diagnosis. And he was put on SO at first then C/D. I asked his vet what he could eat that she could also eat (she was a food thief), and his vet recommended raw. Turns out what he really needed was low carb, lower phosphorus raw or wet with lots of water added to help flush him out. The same combo will work well for CKD as well.

You want the BD Ultrafine syringes, the one with the purple and yellow box. I found that oddly enough, the Safeway pharmacy was the cheapest place to buy a lot of insulin supplies. Costco and Superstore also have good prices.

If you want to get a human blood glucose meter, you want that takes just a small blood drop. The Freestyle Lite is one such meter. Occasionally London Drugs has good prices on the test strips for it and I got my meter free when I bought the test strips there. I am in the lower mainland so I actually cross border shopped for mine, as the US has cheaper test strip prices. Another good source for Canadian members is searching eBay for test strips.

For food, the Weruva pates are available in Canada, I think even Petsmart has them but so do the smaller chains of pet food stores. Soulistic that Diane mentioned above is NOT available in Canada. Take a look at this list of food lists, specifically the diabetes one, for a list of foods that work for CKD and feline diabetes. CKD food Chart. A good number of the foods are available in Canada, including the Tiki Cat, Rawz, Wellness Core and Identity.

 

[SVickery]

Hi there - waving at you from the west coast of BC. Stumpy is a real cutie, reminds me a lot of Neko's best buddy. He had idiopathic cystitis with crystals, diagnosed a week after Neko's FD diagnosis. And he was put on SO at first then C/D. I asked his vet what he could eat that she could also eat (she was a food thief), and his vet recommended raw. Turns out what he really needed was low carb, lower phosphorus raw or wet with lots of water added to help flush him out. The same combo will work well for CDK as well.

You want the BD Ultrafine syringes, the one with the purple and yellow box. I found that oddly enough, the Safeway pharmacy was the cheapest place to buy a lot of insulin supplies. Costco and Superstore also have good prices.

If you want to get a human blood glucose meter, you want that takes just a small blood drop. The Freestyle Lite is one such meter. Occasionally London Drugs has good prices on the test strips for it and I got my meter free when I bought the test strips there. I am in the lower mainland so I actually cross border shopped for mine, as the US has cheaper test strip prices. Another good source for Canadian members is searching eBay for test strips.

For food, the Weruva pates are available in Canada, I think even Petsmart has them but so do the smaller chains of pet food stores. Soulistic that Diane mentioned above is NOT available in Canada. Take a look at this list of food lists, specifically the diabetes one, for a list of foods that work for CKD and feline diabetes. CKD food Chart. A good number of the foods are available in Canada, including the Tiki Cat, Rawz, Wellness Core and Identity.

Hi Wendy & Neko - we are in Port Alberni! We saw the vet this morning and initially felt very overwhelmed. The vet said that we cannot use Basaglar (Lantus) on Stumpy, so we told him what was on this forum, and he is going to do some research on that. The vet did a demonstration for us of how to do the blood test, and also some hydration (with me holding him). We will need to do the hydration once a day for a while. They want us to do part urinary SO food, part KD food. I came away with a bag of of KD dry food. We don't have the insulin supplies yet, as vet is seeing whether we can use my hubby's Basaglar. Stumpy has also been to the ER hospital in Nanaimo twice for urinary crystals. We lost a cat due to a complete blockage so are always very aware when Stumpy starts showing signs of crystals. I will for sure look into the foods you mentioned. Of course the vet stressed that we should only be using their food, but if there are alternatives I would be very happy.
Thanks so much for your help, really appreciate it!

 

[SVickery]

Hi Sue, welcome and wishing you and your beautiful Stumpy lots of good luck.
I’ve been using a Libre 3 on my cat, Ivy for about 2 years and I’m very comfortable using them.
My cat doesn’t tolerate constant ear pricks.

I also test with a handheld meter when she hits “LO” readings on the Libre most especially.
As mentioned previously there is usually a discrepancy between when you see “LO” readings and what the handheld glucometer reads.
I use a Contour Next, but it could be any handheld human meter or a pet meter.
I install the sensors myself and I keep several on hand at all times because they can fail or be pulled off at any time by the cat and I don’t want to have to wait to have someone else put it on or be without data or have to take Ivy to a vet for that to be done. (It’s one more stressor for you and your cat, plus additional costs).

It’s truly not that hard to put on. You just have to follow the directions very carefully. Once you’ve done it one or two times you will be very comfortable doing it.
I keep a “tube top” on Ivy, (previously had a T-shirt on her. She just didn’t like the T-shirt). But most cats tolerate a tee shirt quite well.
Your kitty may get used to wearing a Libre (and then you maybe wouldn’t have to use a T-shirt, but then again you might always have to keep one on if he likes to pull the Libre off.)

For a Libre 3, I got Ivy her own phone that stays with her at home and I can monitor her 24/7, the data is sent directly to my own phone through the Libre Linkup App).
The phone does not require any active service so you are not paying for an additional phone line. The phone operates on Bluetooth and uses Wi-Fi to send the data to your phone so that you can monitor your cat’s sensor information at all times.
You can use an older phone model if you have one or could purchase one used.
On the Abbott website there are lists of compatible, androids, or iPhones.

***I strongly recommend learning about how to use a Libre from the Facebook group:
“Freestyle Libre for Dogs and Cats”
They have so much valuable information, guide guides, tutorials videos, and everything you will need to learn about using a Freestyle Libre sensor.

A vet’s office tends to use glue to install them, it is highly recommended not to use any glue.
The glue can flood and kill the sensor and it’s terrible on their fragile skin.

I hope this helps. Please ask questions if you have them.

Hello Stacy & Ivy, I was so overwhelmed at the vet this morning that I totally forgot to ask about the Libre. We will be talking to them again as have not yet sorted out insulin etc.; I am hoping we can use it, seems much better than poking Stumpy's ears. My hubby is diabetic and uses DexCom, so at least we are somewhat familiar with the process. Good tip about the extra phone - we have a spare Android we could use. Thanks for all your very handy info - I will be coming back to read it again!

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I am very surprised your vet said you could not use Basaglar. Of course you can and you can use your husband’s supplies as long as they are in date and have been kept in the fridge.
Has your vet treated any diabetic cats before?

Regarding the dry food the vet has recommended…both are very high carbs. Wendy has given you some good alternatives.
For cats who are at risk of blockages, wet/ canned food is much better for them. Cats need moisture in their diets as they are not great drinkers. Dry food is 7% moisture and wet food is 78% moisture…there is no contest as to which is better for cats. I would take the dry food back to the vet if it were me.
I fell into the same trap years ago with one of my cats who blocked, and I was given dry food which I fed to both my cats. It was very high carb and I didn’t realise it until my other cat got diabetes and I joined this forum. I would never feed any of my cats dry food again ever.
My current cats have never tasted dry food and recently when I was given some freeze dried food to try, neither of them recognised it as food and just played with it!

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

The vet said that we cannot use Basaglar (Lantus) on Stumpy, so we told him what was on this forum, and he is going to do some research on that.

That is just plain crazy why you can't use the Basaglar. What the heck does he have to do research on
What was his reasoning
One thing you don't want is Vetsulin, it's for dogs and it's very hard sh and drops the BG quickly.
@SVickery

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Port Alberni, that's about as west as you can go. It might also explain why your vet has not much experience in feline diabetes and the best way to treat cats. If you would like, we have links to current veterinary papers showing which insulins are recommended for cat. Hint, Lantus or it's glargine biosimilars is one of two of them, and that includes Basaglar. Prozinc is the other.

Any chance you have a copy of Stumpy's blood work that you can post here? Early CKD is also not the time when people should be giving fluids, but it depends on some of his blood work results. You can always return the KD food and say he didn't like it. KD is also not something that needs to be given early in treatment of CKD. And you especially don't want to give the dry food version. It may or may not surprise you to learn that most vets trained in Canada had a nutrition course (less than 1 day for all animals) taught by Hills. You absolutely do not need to give vet food.

Has Stumpy eaten wet food before?

 

[SVickery]

I am very surprised your vet said you could not use Basaglar. Of course you can and you can use your husband’s supplies as long as they are in date and have been kept in the fridge.
Has your vet treated any diabetic cats before?

Regarding the dry food the vet has recommended…both are very high carbs. Wendy has given you some good alternatives.
For cats who are at risk of blockages, wet/ canned food is much better for them. Cats need moisture in their diets as they are not great drinkers. Dry food is 7% moisture and wet food is 78% moisture…there is no contest as to which is better for cats. I would take the dry food back to the vet if it were me.
I fell into the same trap years ago with one of my cats who blocked, and I was given dry food which I fed to both my cats. It was very high carb and I didn’t realise it until my other cat got diabetes and I joined this forum. I would never feed any of my cats dry food again ever.
My current cats have never tasted dry food and recently when I was given some freeze dried food to try, neither of them recognised it as food and just played with it!

I believe the vet has treated diabetic dogs and cats before. I think sometimes the vets just want you to buy from them, and if you don't know a great deal about the disease, you can get overwhelmed pretty quickly. It does make sense that the dry food would not be great for cats with KD and diabetes. Thanks for the advice.

 

[SVickery]

Port Alberni, that's about as west as you can go. It might also explain why your vet has not much experience in feline diabetes and the best way to treat cats. If you would like, we have links to current veterinary papers showing which insulins are recommended for cat. Hint, Lantus or it's glargine biosimilars is one of two of them, and that includes Basaglar. Prozinc is the other.

Any chance you have a copy of Stumpy's blood work that you can post here? Early CKD is also not the time when people should be giving fluids, but it depends on some of his blood work results. You can always return the KD food and say he didn't like it. KD is also not something that needs to be given early in treatment of CKD. And you especially don't want to give the dry food version. It may or may not surprise you to learn that most vets trained in Canada had a nutrition course (less than 1 day for all animals) taught by Hills. You absolutely do not need to give vet food.

Has Stumpy eaten wet food before?

I will try and get a copy of his bloodwork tomorrow. Yes, Stumpy eats wet food. He is having fluids because the vet said he was dehydrated.

 

[SVickery]

That is just plain crazy why you can't use the Basaglar. What the heck does he have to do research on
What was his reasoning
One thing you don't want is Vetsulin, it's for dogs and it's very hard sh and drops the BG quickly.

The insulin they recommended was Caninsulin, which to me sounds like it is for dogs, unless it is made by Royal Canin. His reasoning? He just said we couldn't use Basaglar. I suppose because he is a vet, we are just supposed to take him at his word - "doctor knows best" etc.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

You are right. Caninsulin is an insulin made for dogs. It is not recommended by the American Animal Hospital Association. It hits hard and fast and doesn’t last the 12 hours needed for cats.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Neko was started on Caninsulin, but that was 13 years ago. Times have changed, dog insulin is no longer recommended. Cats have higher metabolisms than cats. Neko did way better on Lantus/glargine, as do most cats.

 

[squeem3]

Just because the vet is a vet and has a degree and experience and all that doesn't mean that your opinion and concerns don't matter. The vet may recommend / suggest / insist on XYZ but if you don't feel comfortable with that and would prefer ABC instead, have a conversation with the vet. Be a little pushy and firm if you have to. Remember, it's YOUR cat and YOU make the decisions. It's important to work with the vet so your cat has the best care possible. Some vets can be educated. Others flat out refuse to listen to clients.

ProZinc is another good insulin to use. It's made just for pets.

 

[Larry and Kitties]

My hubby is diabetic and uses DexCom, so at least we are somewhat familiar with the process.

I have used a Dexcom G7 on my cat Merle. I like the Dexcom app better than the Libre app. Only the G7 is suitable for cats since oike the Libre the sensor and transmitter are in one small package. The Decom G6 and earlier are two part units with a sensor and then a separate transmitter (good for 90 days) that attaches to the top of the sensor.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

I forgot to add, when my cat was started on Caninsulin, it was because it was what the vet knew. She said "that's what they do at that clinic". After a couple months of asking to be switched to Lantus, I saw a locum vet who had experience with Lantus and he told me to switch. That's when I found out I didn't need a prescription to get the Lantus. My local Save-On-Foods pharmacist was very helpful - she had a lot of kitty clients on Lantus. Maybe one of the other vet clinics there uses Lantus? In the lower mainland, it's the most commonly used insulin now for cats.

Basaglar is the same as Lantus. In BC, even human patients typically get Basaglar as it's cheaper and it's what the government prefers to pay for. That's why your husband has it.

 

[SVickery]

I forgot to add, when my cat was started on Caninsulin, it was because it was what the vet knew. She said "that's what they do at that clinic". After a couple months of asking to be switched to Lantus, I saw a locum vet who had experience with Lantus and he told me to switch. That's when I found out I didn't need a prescription to get the Lantus. My local Save-On-Foods pharmacist was very helpful - she had a lot of kitty clients on Lantus. Maybe one of the other vet clinics there uses Lantus? In the lower mainland, it's the most commonly used insulin now for cats.

Basaglar is the same as Lantus. In BC, even human patients typically get Basaglar as it's cheaper and it's what the government prefers to pay for. That's why your husband has it.

 

[SVickery]

Still waiting to hear back from vet, but definitely leaning towards the Basaglar. Unfortunately, we only have 3 vet clinics here in town - bad experience with one, other more expensive, and travelling to another is not an option, too far
Thanks for info on Caninsulin and Lantus (Basaglar).

 

[SVickery]

I will try and get a copy of his bloodwork tomorrow. Yes, Stumpy eats wet food. He is having fluids because the vet said he was dehydrated.

We spent 1 /12 hours yesterday at the vet, discussing everything. Vet assistant showed me how to do IV fluids, with me holding Stumpy. Hubby and I did that tonight, it wasn't pretty but we got it done! Now to get the insulin started, which we don't have yet. Correction: we have the Basaglar, not the needles.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

You should be able to get the BD Ultrafine II syringes at a regular pharmacy. I'd go with syringes instead of needles as you can't make the small dose changes with needles that you can with syringes.

 

[SVickery]

Hi and welcome to the forum!
The good news is YES, you can use the Basaglar insulin for Stumpy. It is one of two recommended insulins for cats.
You will need to get some insulin syringes though to give the insulin as it is not recommended to use the pens for cats as you have to go up in 1 unit doses and we recommend going up in 1/4 unit increments. Cats are very tiny compared to humans
The syringes you will need are U100, 3/10ml, 30 or 31 gauge, 6 or 8mm insulin syringes with 1/2 unit markings. There are several different brands you can get.

I have to go and feed my lot but will be back a bit later with more info for you.
Welcome again!!

Hi again, just spoke with vet and they are still insisting that Basaglar is not recommended for cats by the manufacturer (of course). And that his first dosage should be .8 so we should need U40 needles? All a bit confusing for first-timers. I feel that they are trying to say that if we go with Basaglar they will not be responsible for any upcoming issues. Not sure what to do at this point.

 

[squeem3]

All Human insulins are used "off label" for pets. The manufacturer of the Human insulin of course won't recommend it for pet use because the product wasn't tested for use in pets and they don't want a lawsuit.

Ask the vet about Lantus (glargine). There are many articles and studies in well known veterinary journals that say Lantus is an effective insulin for cats. Basalgar is like a generic equivalent of Lantus.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1098612X15571880
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1098612X14523187
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.jfms.2008.06.009
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.jfms.2008.05.002
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1098612X12450169

Are there any other vets in your area you can get a second opinion from?

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

I am truly amazed your vet is so out of date with current FD treatments.
Please stick to your guns and insist on baslagar or just go ahead and use your husbands insulin and we will help you with the dosing. and please use the syringes I recommended in post 2. The U100 ones which are specifically for U100 insulins which Basaglar is.

The 40 unit syringes are used for a different insulin called Prozinc and it is a different strength, hence the different size syringes.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

OK, time to show the vet the research and recommendations from his/her peers. Although glargine may not be recommended by the manufacturer, it is by the American Animal Hospital Association. The following is a peer reviewed journal article.

• (2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats

See the bottom of page 3 and repeated the top of page 4, second paragraph where suggested insulins are Lantus/glargine or Prozinc. Basaglar is an insulin glargine. The biosimilars initiative by the government of BC means that to be covered by Pharmacare, humans now are prescribed Basaglar or other biosimilar as it is cheaper than the Lantus brand. Why waste what you already have? We've had other members share their own or family members insulin with their cat.

Sometimes vets get it wrong. They deal with a lot of different animals and different diseases for all of them. That's a lot to know and they have to keep up with all the changes each year. They don't get much training on diabetes, one of our members heard from the vet research hospital near her that it was 5 hours, and that is cats and dogs together. The ugly truth is that your vet has probably seen more dog cases than cats, hence the preference for Caninsulin. My vet was thrilled when she heard I was willing to treat instead of PTS.

I liked my vet, had used her for years. I took it as my job to educate her - thankfully she was one of those willing to learn with me. I was her first client to use Lantus, and to home test. We used to trade notes on best blood glucose meter and best place to buy test strips. That was 13 years ago, times have changed. Most of the people I know in BC with diabetic cats are now using Lantus. We even had a member from Quadra Island using Lantus and I think most of not all the members from Vancouver Island. Even if you don't want to go to the other vets, you could try calling them and ask what insulin they use for cats.

If you read the literature, you'll see that getting you cat regulated quickly increased the chances of remission, should that be a goal of yours. Lantus/glargine is hands down better at achieving regulation.

 

[SVickery]

All Human insulins are used "off label" for pets. The manufacturer of the Human insulin of course won't recommend it for pet use because the product wasn't tested for use in pets and they don't want a lawsuit.

Ask the vet about Lantus (glargine). There are many articles and studies in well known veterinary journals that say Lantus is an effective insulin for cats. Basalgar is like a generic equivalent of Lantus.

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1098612X15571880
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1098612X14523187
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.jfms.2008.06.009
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1016/j.jfms.2008.05.002
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1098612X12450169

Are there any other vets in your area you can get a second opinion from?

I believe Lantus is Basaglar. We are probably going to go ahead and use it with the syringes. Thanks for your help, most appreciated!

 

[SVickery]

I am truly amazed your vet is so out of date with current FD treatments.
Please stick to your guns and insist on baslagar or just go ahead and use your husbands insulin and we will help you with the dosing. and please use the syringes I recommended in post 2. The U100 ones which are specifically for U100 insulins which Basaglar is.

The 40 unit syringes are used for a different insulin called Prozinc and it is a different strength, hence the different size syringes.

Yes, me too! We are going to use the Basaglar (that is my husband's insulin) and the syringes you recommended. We will sure appreciate any help you can give us along our journey.
By the way, have you heard anything about Awiqli, the once-weekly insulin? Just saw something about it on TV.

 

[SVickery]

OK, time to show the vet the research and recommendations from his/her peers. Although glargine may not be recommended by the manufacturer, it is by the American Animal Hospital Association. The following is a peer reviewed journal article.

• (2018) AAHA Diabetes Management Guidelines for Dogs and Cats

See the bottom of page 3 and repeated the top of page 4, second paragraph where suggested insulins are Lantus/glargine or Prozinc. Basaglar is an insulin glargine. The biosimilars initiative by the government of BC means that to be covered by Pharmacare, humans now are prescribed Basaglar or other biosimilar as it is cheaper than the Lantus brand. Why waste what you already have? We've had other members share their own or family members insulin with their cat.

Sometimes vets get it wrong. They deal with a lot of different animals and different diseases for all of them. That's a lot to know and they have to keep up with all the changes each year. They don't get much training on diabetes, one of our members heard from the vet research hospital near her that it was 5 hours, and that is cats and dogs together. The ugly truth is that your vet has probably seen more dog cases than cats, hence the preference for Caninsulin. My vet was thrilled when she heard I was willing to treat instead of PTS.

I liked my vet, had used her for years. I took it as my job to educate her - thankfully she was one of those willing to learn with me. I was her first client to use Lantus, and to home test. We used to trade notes on best blood glucose meter and best place to buy test strips. That was 13 years ago, times have changed. Most of the people I know in BC with diabetic cats are now using Lantus. We even had a member from Quadra Island using Lantus and I think most of not all the members from Vancouver Island. Even if you don't want to go to the other vets, you could try calling them and ask what insulin they use for cats.

If you read the literature, you'll see that getting you cat regulated quickly increased the chances of remission, should that be a goal of yours. Lantus/glargine is hands down better at achieving regulation.

Yes, I think our vet probably treats more dogs with diabetes than cats. Hopefully, by continuing treating Stumpy with Basaglar, we might be able to change his mind.

 

[Bron and Sheba (GA)]

By the way, have you heard anything about Awiqli, the once-weekly insulin? Just saw something about it on TV

I have heard of it but don’t know a lot about it. I think we are a long way off using it for cats. Imagine if you got the dose wrong and had to deal with that for a week.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Typical starting dose for Lantus is 0.5 to 1.0 units, but it depends on which dosing method you'd like to follow. More details in the Sticky Note on Dosing Methods on the top of the Lantus forum. If you haven't been there yet, I'd recommend reading the starred yellow Sticky Notes here:
Lantus / Levemir / Biosimilars

 

[SVickery]

The vet has said to start Stumpy on .8 units to start. Does this sound about right? I forgot to mention his fructosamine level was 800.

 

[squeem3]

I'm not sure how you would measure 0.8 units with a U100 insulin syringe. It would be better to start with 0.5 units and increase slowly as needed. Make sure you get U100 insulin syringes 3/10cc with half unit markings. Gauge and needle length is mostly preference. Many people use 5/16 inch needles that are 30 or 31 gauge. Cats with long fur may need 1/2 inch needles but you have to be extra cautious to not poke the needle through the tented skin and into a finger.

A fructosamine just gives the average blood glucose level over the past few weeks. In unregulated diabetic cats, the fructosamine is always going to be on the high side.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

0.8 units makes sense if you give Caninsulin, but does not make sense for glargine. The U-100 syringes, which is what I hope you have, have 1/2 unit markings on them. We change doses by 0.25 units at a time, eyeballing between the 0.5 unit markings.

If he is still on the dry food, the starting dose would be 1.0 units.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

@SVickery

• These are the ones you want for Basaglar want