hi - Toulouse - AMPS

[Toulouse’s Mom]

Hello - Our vet is trying something different with our Toulouse this weekend. I do feel like I have to trust them and think they have his best interest in mind, but they are having him try 1.5 units this morning after 2 cans of food (which I feel like I am forcing down) and nothing in the PM for a few days.

We have been doing .5 in the AM typically, but have been going one shot a day by our doctors orders. We are still seeing him spike back up in the middle of the night but he did sit in the green for a while yesterday.


I am just nervous because I am home alone and it's the weekend. Any advice or kind words before I put our dose in this morning?

 

[Tim & Pookey]

Hi Joy, I guess I’m confused about this. What is the point of increasing food just to be able to shoot more? Why not use one of the standard dosing methods?

One shot a day is confusing as well, folks here talk about how Lantus doesn’t last long enough for that.

Not saying your vet is wrong, but idk if you’ll have supporters of that plan here. Let’s see what others say!

 

[Toulouse’s Mom]

Hi Joy, I guess I’m confused about this. What is the point of increasing food just to be able to shoot more? Why not use one of the standard dosing methods?

One shot a day is confusing as well, folks here talk about how Lantus doesn’t last long enough for that.

Not saying your vet is wrong, but idk if you’ll have supporters of that plan here. Let’s see what others say!

Totally understand your hesitation and appreciate your kind response, because I also am hesitant. I think the food increase is just because he was only eating 3/4 a can twice a day and he is 16 lbs, so the vet just thinks I might be under feeding him a bit. So i agree with trying to increase this a little.

One shot a day is confusing for me too, but I just don't know how to tell my vet who is truly invested that I didn't try what they recommended all weekend. I can be home all day to monitor him today and tomorrow, so that is a positive.

 

[Tim & Pookey]

Totally understand your hesitation and appreciate your kind response, because I also am hesitant. I think the food increase is just because he was only eating 3/4 a can twice a day and he is 16 lbs, so the vet just thinks I might be under feeding him a bit. So i agree with trying to increase this a little.

One shot a day is confusing for me too, but I just don't know how to tell my vet who is truly invested that I didn't try what they recommended all weekend. I can be home all day to monitor him today and tomorrow, so that is a positive.

Yea I’d agree, 1.5 cans a day is a little low for that size. My cat is a similar size and we figured out 3 cans a day as our starting point for him to maintain.

I could see how the vet thing could be tough for you. You don’t want to call on Monday and be like yea I went rogue based on the internet. Maybe more experienced members will have some advice on how to handle that situation.

 

[Toulouse’s Mom]

Yea I’d agree, 1.5 cans a day is a little low for that size. My cat is a similar size and we figured out 3 cans a day as our starting point for him to maintain.

I could see how the vet thing could be tough for you. You don’t want to call on Monday and be like yea I went rogue based on the internet. Maybe more experienced members will have some advice on how to handle that situation.

Update: I am going with my gut. I am going to give him .5 units this morning and reassess this evening for another .5. His numbers were just so good yesterday afternoon it doesnt feel right to triple the dose.

 

[Bandit's Mom]

Hi @Toulouse’s Mom, cats don't get 24 hour duration on insulin like humans do on account of their faster metabolism, which is why insulin is given twice a day.

I would stay with 0.5U and try and shoot any preshot over 90. Shooting low is hard to do and we have all balked at it at first, but you will see the benefits of shooting low and consistent dosing. It's possible that he might need even less than 0.5U but you want to wait for him to earn a reduction. The Libre reads much lower in normal numbers, so it would be good if you could verify Libre lows with a ear poke.

ETA: It doesn't matter how much you feed, if the dose is too high.

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Are you still giving the Glycobalance and Hills m/d as per your signature? If so, it means you should be taking reductions if he goes below 90. On 11/30 he went below 50 when you gave 0.5 units. You could try 0.25 units as his dose now. With a smaller dose, it's more likely you won't have to skip so often, and his numbers will be more even. Skipping the shot just means he shoots up when the insulin wears off, as you have seen. Since he went so low on 0.5 units which had some influence from the 1.0 unit depot, I think that the 1.5 units would not be a good idea.

but he did sit in the green for a while yesterday.

Could you enter that on the spreadsheet. We like to see how low a dose takes the cat and the lowest I see is 110.

but they are having him try 1.5 units this morning after 2 cans of food (which I feel like I am forcing down) and nothing in the PM for a few days.

Giving insulin after a cat has eaten is what you do with the in and out types of insulins like Caninsulin/Vetsulin. Lantus is a much more gentle insulin and we find that the cats here do much better with several small meals instead. I know Neko would have done a mutiny if I had tried to withhold food for half the day!

I think the food increase is just because he was only eating 3/4 a can twice a day and he is 16 lbs, so the vet just thinks I might be under feeding him a bit. So i agree with trying to increase this a little.

How many calories in a can? Is he losing weight? A baby or pet scale is a good investment to track how change in diet is working. My 14.5 lb Neko was good on about 220 calories per day, which was about one of the cans of the food she was getting. Note, most of the time she ate raw, still same number of calories, but it's hard to translate that amount to a can. Glycobalance wet is 200 calories per can.

I just don't know how to tell my vet who is truly invested that I didn't try what they recommended all weekend.

With the shots followed by skips in the last week, you've already tried the one shot a day method.

 

[Toulouse’s Mom]

Are you still giving the Glycobalance and Hills m/d as per your signature? If so, it means you should be taking reductions if he goes below 90. On 11/30 he went below 50 when you gave 0.5 units. You could try 0.25 units as his dose now. With a smaller dose, it's more likely you won't have to skip so often, and his numbers will be more even. Skipping the shot just means he shoots up when the insulin wears off, as you have seen. Since he went so low on 0.5 units which had some influence from the 1.0 unit depot, I think that the 1.5 units would not be a good idea.

Yes still doing Glycobalance and have weened off Hills m/d except for maybe a piece here and there. Is there a syringe that is small enough for .25 u? Right now we are using the UltiCare VetRx Insulin Syringes U-100 12.7mm x 29G (.33 cc). I definitely did not feel comfortable with 1.5 un a day.

Could you enter that on the spreadsheet. We like to see how low a dose takes the cat and the lowest I see is 110.

I apologize, I misspoke. I meant in the green via the libre, but in the blue on the spreadsheet.

Giving insulin after a cat has eaten is what you do with the in and out types of insulins like Caninsulin/Vetsulin. Lantus is a much more gentle insulin and we find that the cats here do much better with several small meals instead. I know Neko would have done a mutiny if I had tried to withhold food for half the day!

This is really encouraging to hear! Toulouse is a tonkinese so he has a LOT to say when he is hungry. I will be giving him smaller bites through out the day of the glycobalance and hope that helps with his hunger!

How many calories in a can? Is he losing weight? A baby or pet scale is a good investment to track how change in diet is working. My 14.5 lb Neko was good on about 220 calories per day, which was about one of the cans of the food she was getting. Note, most of the time she ate raw, still same number of calories, but it's hard to translate that amount to a can. Glycobalance wet is 200 calories per can.

I am seeing the Glycobalance wet as 647 kcal ME/kg, 55 kcal ME/can. Now that i'm looking at that.. would I go based off of the /can?

With the shots followed by skips in the last week, you've already tried the one shot a day method.

I really really appreciate all of your insight. It is all super helpful and reassuring as I continue to learn day in and out with this one!

 

[Wendy&Neko]

Is there a syringe that is small enough for .25 u?

No, we all use 1/2 unit marked syringes and eyeball the half way mark, or use digital calipers to measure the difference.

And yes, go off of how many calories are listed on the can. Brands and even the same product come in different size cans. If it's only 55 calories per can, he does need more.

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

Is there a syringe that is small enough for .25 u?

 

[Diane Tyler's Mom GA]

• Full and half-unit syringe scales: