12/3, Binie AMPS 384, +3 361, +614

[Heike & BInie]

Last post: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/12-2-binie-amps-405-3-427-6-410-fur-shot-again.296224/

Good evening,

first of all thank so much for your great adivce and you help to avoid fur shots! I am so grateful for all the shared adivce and I picked out quite some inspirations already.
@Staci & Ivy @cecile & bella @bluesunshine @Deb and Tiger @SmallestSparrow @Christie & Maverick @Karen and Chispa @Heather82372 !

Seems like the roll method is the one which makes it most likely not to do fur shots but some get very good results by using the tent method too. I am a bit hesitant to use the roll method because of Binies reaction to rolling her fur but I hate being so insecure with the tent method and it seems there are hacks to make it work.

I read that many of you are injecting in the scruff and I read that on some US websites too. That was a surprise for me, as in Germany they tell you a million times not to inject in the scruff or the shoulder. Seems there are different medical opinions on that? I was told to inject in the area, where you would place a saddle (funny picture). Somehow I can imagine that scruff might be easier but of course I am hesitant after all the warning I found on German websites. Here is a picture, I found:

I find that a bit confusing. Do you have more information, why scruff is safe? In Germany they say it should be avoided because of the risk to develop sarcoma on the injection site and you can't do surgery on the scruff.

There is something else which makes me insecure. I found a picture in the internet, that you should make sure to only inject UNDER the skin and not to deep, because you could inject into the muscle. I don't find that picture any more but I made a drawing below.

If I make the fold, I can feel there are two different layers like in the drawing. If I take only the top layer, the fold is very thin and it is more likely the needle is going through the tent and I do a fur shot. If I take a bigger fold, I think there is the tissue below involved which according to this picture should be avoided. I asked my vet about it and she said that I will not manage to hit a muscle with a 8 mm needle, so it should be safe. I hope she is true. Besides that I am not injecting close to the body but like Heather and Christie in a 45 to 60 degree angle. I feel if I would do it parallel to the body the risk of producing a fur shot would be bigger.

And I never wondered, if I should use a longer needle. I got 8 mm from the vet and somehow I feel that reduces the risk to go through the fold. Binies fur might be a little bit longer than other European short hair cats but I feel that does not make such a big difference. Would a longer needle be helpful?

If you have any ideas. what I do wrong with the tent method or would I can do better, I would be really grateful.

@Heather82372: Somehow it is counterintuitive to me, that it is harder to make folds with a chunky cat. I sometimes have to inject myself heparin and I feel it is so much easier with some fat tissue involved.

I found a German video about the roll method (they call it tent method there) which I find quite helpful. Maybe @SmallestSparrow or anyone else is interested. Thanks to @Karen and Chispa for sharing the other great video!

Here is the German one, the tone is not needed:

Besides my technical troubles I was surprised about her cycles last night and today. After the furshot yesterday morning she went down very fast in the pm cycle. The libre showed errors many times because she was falling so quickly. She reached a higher blue and went up again quickly. Today it looked like a bounce cycle, maybe because she was falling so quickly? Tonight there seems to be some action as well, she already sees yellow at +2, which promises a quite active cycle.

Hope everyone has a nice Tuesday and all the sweet cats are fine!

 

[Tim & Pookey]

That’s interesting. That’s the first time I’ve heard about scruff versus saddle. We have exclusively been using the scruff so far.

 

[SmallestSparrow]

Last post: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/12-2-binie-amps-405-3-427-6-410-fur-shot-again.296224/

Good evening,

first of all thank so much for your great adivce and you help to avoid fur shots! I am so grateful for all the shared adivce and I picked out quite some inspirations already.
@Staci & Ivy @cecile & bella @bluesunshine @Deb and Tiger @SmallestSparrow @Christie & Maverick @Karen and Chispa @Heather82372 !

Seems like the roll method is the one which makes it most likely not to do fur shots but some get very good results by using the tent method too. I am a bit hesitant to use the roll method because of Binies reaction to rolling her fur but I hate being so insecure with the tent method and it seems there are hacks to make it work.

I read that many of you are injecting in the scruff and I read that on some US websites too. That was a surprise for me, as in Germany they tell you a million times not to inject in the scruff or the shoulder. Seems there are different medical opinions on that? I was told to inject in the area, where you would place a saddle (funny picture). Somehow I can imagine that scruff might be easier but of course I am hesitant after all the warning I found on German websites. Here is a picture, I found:

I find that a bit confusing. Do you have more information, why scruff is safe? In Germany they say it should be avoided because of the risk to develop sarcoma on the injection site and you can't do surgery on the scruff.

There is something else which makes me insecure. I found a picture in the internet, that you should make sure to only inject UNDER the skin and not to deep, because you could inject into the muscle. I don't find that picture any more but I made a drawing below.

View attachment 71672


If I make the fold, I can feel there are two different layers like in the drawing. If I take only the top layer, the fold is very thin and it is more likely the needle is going through the tent and I do a fur shot. If I take a bigger fold, I think there is the tissue below involved which according to this picture should be avoided. I asked my vet about it and she said that I will not manage to hit a muscle with a 8 mm needle, so it should be safe. I hope she is true. Besides that I am not injecting close to the body but like Heather and Christie in a 45 to 60 degree angle. I feel if I would do it parallel to the body the risk of producing a fur shot would be bigger.

And I never wondered, if I should use a longer needle. I got 8 mm from the vet and somehow I feel that reduces the risk to go through the fold. Binies fur might be a little bit longer than other European short hair cats but I feel that does not make such a big difference. Would a longer needle be helpful?

If you have any ideas. what I do wrong with the tent method or would I can do better, I would be really grateful.

@Heather82372: Somehow it is counterintuitive to me, that it is harder to make folds with a chunky cat. I sometimes have to inject myself heparin and I feel it is so much easier with some fat tissue involved.

I found a German video about the roll method (they call it tent method there) which I find quite helpful. Maybe @SmallestSparrow or anyone else is interested. Thanks to @Karen and Chispa for sharing the other great video!

Here is the German one, the tone is not needed:

Besides my technical troubles I was surprised about her cycles last night and today. After the furshot yesterday morning she went down very fast in the pm cycle. The libre showed errors many times because she was falling so quickly. She reached a higher blue and went up again quickly. Today it looked like a bounce cycle, maybe because she was falling so quickly? Tonight there seems to be some action as well, she already sees yellow at +2, which promises a quite active cycle.

Hope everyone has a nice Tuesday and all the sweet cats are fine!

I would guess I’m doing something in between a roll and tent. It’s sort of what my cat sitter (a senior vet tech) showed me. She picks up the skin by the fur. The difference is I don’t hold the fur perpendicular to the spine as in the two videos, I hold it parallel so it makes a tent and i shoot the length of it. Hard to take pic one handed, and when i shoot I don’t let him be in a bed but this is the idea
I part the fur ( and shoot toward the head)

then I pick up some fur with a gentle tug on the skin

I can feel in the little skin triangle before I shoot to be sure I’m going to be going under skin and above muscle

I was told avoid the scruff. For the reason you gave and also bc it may not be absorbed as well. But I was also told if that’s the only spot I can get at first while building skill, then use it and the first week it was scruff and just past shoulders. Second week past shoulders and thorax near head. Now fully in the “saddle” although not too near hips bc he’s so skinny and doesn’t seem to trust me messing around back there. Guess it’s the enema history.

30 yr ago I was told use the scruff.

I do realize I have a very placid boy.

edit: just now sitting next to him on sofa I part his fur and picked it up while petting him. I wonder if a cat who’s not as cooperative would get used to doing that if it happened during petting

 

[cecile & bella]

Hi Heike! Nice that she got some blue yesterday evening, I hope she will get back down soon.
Your video shows the tent, not the roll. At first I was using 12mm long needles because Bella has a thicker fur and I found it easier. Now I prefer shorter 8mm ones. I find that interesting how recommandations differ depending on where you are. That shows (to me, at least) that you can probably do as you prefer and be fine. I inject in the area between the shoulders, not the scruff itself (the middle), but the sides, I try to move every time but in that general location.
Here is how I roll: I grab some skin, not much, and roll it gently on my fingers, then inject with the needle parallel to her back. I tried to take a picture. i will ask Lucas to take a video tonight, that might be easier to see. He can even speak German or French if you prefer.

 

[Staci & Ivy]

Last post: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/12-2-binie-amps-405-3-427-6-410-fur-shot-again.296224/

Good evening,

first of all thank so much for your great adivce and you help to avoid fur shots! I am so grateful for all the shared adivce and I picked out quite some inspirations already.
@Staci & Ivy @cecile & bella @bluesunshine @Deb and Tiger @SmallestSparrow @Christie & Maverick @Karen and Chispa @Heather82372 !

Seems like the roll method is the one which makes it most likely not to do fur shots but some get very good results by using the tent method too. I am a bit hesitant to use the roll method because of Binies reaction to rolling her fur but I hate being so insecure with the tent method and it seems there are hacks to make it work.

I read that many of you are injecting in the scruff and I read that on some US websites too. That was a surprise for me, as in Germany they tell you a million times not to inject in the scruff or the shoulder. Seems there are different medical opinions on that? I was told to inject in the area, where you would place a saddle (funny picture). Somehow I can imagine that scruff might be easier but of course I am hesitant after all the warning I found on German websites. Here is a picture, I found:

I find that a bit confusing. Do you have more information, why scruff is safe? In Germany they say it should be avoided because of the risk to develop sarcoma on the injection site and you can't do surgery on the scruff.

There is something else which makes me insecure. I found a picture in the internet, that you should make sure to only inject UNDER the skin and not to deep, because you could inject into the muscle. I don't find that picture any more but I made a drawing below.

View attachment 71672


If I make the fold, I can feel there are two different layers like in the drawing. If I take only the top layer, the fold is very thin and it is more likely the needle is going through the tent and I do a fur shot. If I take a bigger fold, I think there is the tissue below involved which according to this picture should be avoided. I asked my vet about it and she said that I will not manage to hit a muscle with a 8 mm needle, so it should be safe. I hope she is true. Besides that I am not injecting close to the body but like Heather and Christie in a 45 to 60 degree angle. I feel if I would do it parallel to the body the risk of producing a fur shot would be bigger.

And I never wondered, if I should use a longer needle. I got 8 mm from the vet and somehow I feel that reduces the risk to go through the fold. Binies fur might be a little bit longer than other European short hair cats but I feel that does not make such a big difference. Would a longer needle be helpful?

If you have any ideas. what I do wrong with the tent method or would I can do better, I would be really grateful.

@Heather82372: Somehow it is counterintuitive to me, that it is harder to make folds with a chunky cat. I sometimes have to inject myself heparin and I feel it is so much easier with some fat tissue involved.

I found a German video about the roll method (they call it tent method there) which I find quite helpful. Maybe @SmallestSparrow or anyone else is interested. Thanks to @Karen and Chispa for sharing the other great video!

Here is the German one, the tone is not needed:

Besides my technical troubles I was surprised about her cycles last night and today. After the furshot yesterday morning she went down very fast in the pm cycle. The libre showed errors many times because she was falling so quickly. She reached a higher blue and went up again quickly. Today it looked like a bounce cycle, maybe because she was falling so quickly? Tonight there seems to be some action as well, she already sees yellow at +2, which promises a quite active cycle.

Hope everyone has a nice Tuesday and all the sweet cats are fine!

Hi Heike, well you've outdone yourself again! That's a lot to digest for one post

I also use an 8 mm needle to inject insulin and it feels comfortable for me. Everyone has their preferences. Longer just felt too long for me.
I don't inject in the scruff either. Somewhere I read it's not good so I don't, not sure why.
I sort of go below the scruff area, more like between her back and her scruff. I will upload a photo separately to try to show where I do it. But I sort of gently lift by a gentle pinch or pull some skin and roll away from me up toward her head and then shoot at an angle down (if that makes any sense).
So hard to describe what I do.
And they do say where that saddle area is ok, like the "flank". I tried that area one or 2 times and Ivy didn't like it. So I gave that up.
Plus I was probably too scared of hurting her there, so I wasn't good at it.

How is the experiment going with using the auto feeder?

Sending good wishes for a calm but good cycle tonight!!
Hugs to you and Binie

 

[SmallestSparrow]

I wouldn’t use a longer needle. I’ve seen people say to do it with long hair but I think it’s harder to keep a long needle where it belongs and I have no trouble parting methos’ fur which is about 1.25 to 2”

 

[Staci & Ivy]

sort of this area is where I shoot (this is not Ivy, lol)

 

[Tim & Pookey]

View attachment 71676
sort of this area is where I shoot (this is not Ivy, lol)

That looks like Pookey haha. I should clarify, this is where we shoot too. In the shoulder area.

 

[Heike & BInie]

That’s interesting. That’s the first time I’ve heard about scruff versus saddle. We have exclusively been using the scruff so far.

You might be as surprised as I was, when I came on the US sites and a lot of people are using the scruff without discussion. I don't know how big the risk of a sarcoma really is. My vet said it is not that big but she doesn't use the scruff as well because there are many other places to inject. Some people here are very religious about the scruff.

But the experience here shows, that it is fine, if it works for you.

 

[Heike & BInie]

I would guess I’m doing something in between a roll and tent. It’s sort of what my cat sitter (a senior vet tech) showed me. She picks up the skin by the fur. The difference is I don’t hold the fur perpendicular to the spine as in the two videos, I hold it parallel so it makes a tent and i shoot the length of it. Hard to take pic one handed, and when i shoot I don’t let him be in a bed but this is the idea
I part the fur ( and shoot toward the head)
View attachment 71673

then I pick up some fur with a gentle tug on the skin
View attachment 71674
I can feel in the little skin triangle before I shoot to be sure I’m going to be going under skin and above muscle

I was told avoid the scruff. For the reason you gave and also bc it may not be absorbed as well. But I was also told if that’s the only spot I can get at first while building skill, then use it and the first week it was scruff and just past shoulders. Second week past shoulders and thorax near head. Now fully in the “saddle” although not too near hips bc he’s so skinny and doesn’t seem to trust me messing around back there. Guess it’s the enema history.

30 yr ago I was told use the scruff.

I do realize I have a very placid boy.

edit: just now sitting next to him on sofa I part his fur and picked it up while petting him. I wonder if a cat who’s not as cooperative would get used to doing that if it happened during petting

Hi Colleen,

thank you so much for the pictures! They are very helpful!!! I wonder if I could do it with Binie if she is not lying in the side. I have to keep her busy with some churrus. She would never tolerate me doing this lying on the side. If her mouth is not busy, she uses it to bite me. Methos is sooooo chilled! With everything being so challenging, I am happy you don't have fights with him!

How you avoid the muscle really sounds textbook like. Do you think my vet is right, that with 8 mm I can't hit a muscle?

Thank you again so much for the pictures! I really appreciate that!

 

[Heike & BInie]

Hi Heike! Nice that she got some blue yesterday evening, I hope she will get back down soon.
Your video shows the tent, not the roll. At first I was using 12mm long needles because Bella has a thicker fur and I found it easier. Now I prefer shorter 8mm ones. I find that interesting how recommandations differ depending on where you are. That shows (to me, at least) that you can probably do as you prefer and be fine. I inject in the area between the shoulders, not the scruff itself (the middle), but the sides, I try to move every time but in that general location.
Here is how I roll: I grab some skin, not much, and roll it gently on my fingers, then inject with the needle parallel to her back. I tried to take a picture. i will ask Lucas to take a video tonight, that might be easier to see. He can even speak German or French if you prefer.
View attachment 71675

Thank you so much Cecile!!! O.k., so maybe I got the roll method wrong so far.... So the roll method just stretches the skin a little, right? And the syringe is parallel to your hand and parallel to her back? I wonder if I can do that with Binie is she is standing with her head over the bowl. It looks so much easier if the cat is lying on the side but she will not tolerate.

Thank you also about commenting the needle length. The thought of 12 mm makes me feal uneasy so I would rather stick with 8 mm.

Yes, I also find it intersting how these recommendations vary. I also think you can do as you prefer but after years of brainwash I would be scared to use the scruff.

So sweet you would take a video but please don't make your life too complicated tonight. I am so grateful for your help!!!

 

[SmallestSparrow]

Hi Colleen,

thank you so much for the pictures! They are very helpful!!! I wonder if I could do it with Binie if she is not lying in the side. I have to keep her busy with some churrus. She would never tolerate me doing this lying on the side. If her mouth is not busy, she uses it to bite me. Methos is sooooo chilled! With everything being so challenging, I am happy you don't have fights with him!

How you avoid the muscle really sounds textbook like. Do you think my vet is right, that with 8 mm I can't hit a muscle?

Thank you again so much for the pictures! I really appreciate that!

I think avoiding the muscle would depend on where you were and how thick the skin/fat is over the muscle. I do worry a bit with methos on his thorax because he’s not a fat cat and his skin is very thin. So I try to stay less of an angle. Closer to the shoulder his skin is thicker and looser so I don’t worry there.

I do get what you’re talking about with feeling two layers, I think if you could shoot along the tent line. So to speak, rather than across like these Videos seem to show …i don’t know if what I’m saying makes sense.

I do think if we hit muscle a cat would react but ecid. Maybe just try when petting her to feel with one hand how it feels to slightly lift her skin with the fur and if you can do that without reaction, if you can feel the little hollow tent with a finger. I will look at him later tonight (getting close to shot time now) to see if I could do it with him upright. I don’t like him upright bc I worry he will leak if he runs around right after so I try to get him when he’s down

 

[Heike & BInie]

Hi Heike, well you've outdone yourself again! That's a lot to digest for one post

I also use an 8 mm needle to inject insulin and it feels comfortable for me. Everyone has their preferences. Longer just felt too long for me.
I don't inject in the scruff either. Somewhere I read it's not good so I don't, not sure why.
I sort of go below the scruff area, more like between her back and her scruff. I will upload a photo separately to try to show where I do it. But I sort of gently lift by a gentle pinch or pull some skin and roll away from me up toward her head and then shoot at an angle down (if that makes any sense).
So hard to describe what I do.
And they do say where that saddle area is ok, like the "flank". I tried that area one or 2 times and Ivy didn't like it. So I gave that up.
Plus I was probably too scared of hurting her there, so I wasn't good at it.

How is the experiment going with using the auto feeder?

Sending good wishes for a calm but good cycle tonight!!
Hugs to you and Binie

Hi Staci,

thank you so much for your great help!!! Hhhhh...I sometimes feel like a freak for my long posts. I think the length of my thread shows my level of desperation.

I think I start to understand the difference between tent method and roll method better than before. Thank you also for the picture, I feel like that could be a region I could reach, while she is licking her churrus. I would love to continue to shoot on her sides but that might be difficult with the tent method if she is standing up and eating. I think I will try to experiment without a syringe first, what she let me do.

The feeder experiment is work in progress. She is no eating from it so far. think she doesn't like to put her head into it. The compartments with the food are quite deep. I learned over the years she doesn't like to eat from bowls. I think it has to do with her whiskers so I changed everything to plates. That might make it more difficult to use the feeder. I now leave the feeder out with a freeze dried snack in it. I was hopefull, when the freeze dried snack was gone one day but then I found out, that she takes it out with her paws. Cats.... But we keep on working on it....

Hope you have a beautiful day and a calm evening!

 

[Heike & BInie]

I wouldn’t use a longer needle. I’ve seen people say to do it with long hair but I think it’s harder to keep a long needle where it belongs and I have no trouble parting methos’ fur which is about 1.25 to 2”

Thank you Colleen! As I wrote to Cecile, the longer needles make me feel uneasy so I am happy to keep the 8 mm. See how far I come with that...

 

[cecile & bella]

Yes, the needle is parallel to the skin and to your hand. I do it while she eats, she was laying down for the icture but she would not like it if I tried to stick her when she does not eat.

 

[Heike & BInie]

Yes, the needle is parallel to the skin and to your hand. I do it while she eats, she was laying down for the icture but she would not like it if I tried to stick her when she does not eat.

Ah! O.k.! Thank you so much! So same situation as with Binie... I think I will try to do it like that tonight without a syringe when she gets her snack.

 

[Staci & Ivy]

Hi Staci,

thank you so much for your great help!!! Hhhhh...I sometimes feel like a freak for my long posts. I think the length of my thread shows my level of desperation.

I think I start to understand the difference between tent method and roll method better than before. Thank you also for the picture, I feel like that could be a region I could reach, while she is licking her churrus. I would love to continue to shoot on her sides but that might be difficult with the tent method if she is standing up and eating. I think I will try to experiment without a syringe first, what she let me do.

The feeder experiment is work in progress. She is no eating from it so far. think she doesn't like to put her head into it. The compartments with the food are quite deep. I learned over the years she doesn't like to eat from bowls. I think it has to do with her whiskers so I changed everything to plates. That might make it more difficult to use the feeder. I now leave the feeder out with a freeze dried snack in it. I was hopefull, when the freeze dried snack was gone one day but then I found out, that she takes it out with her paws. Cats.... But we keep on working on it....

Hope you have a beautiful day and a calm evening!

I was just teasing you, Heike. Don’t be upset!!

I think it’s great you are so thorough and want you to ask all the questions to get exactly what you need!

Funny that she pulled her snack out of the feeder. I guess that’s ok. At least she knows there was a snack in there and if she wants it badly enough she will eat it.
Cats….

Keep trying! Maybe one day we can outsmart Binie (probably not though)

 

[Christie & Maverick]

I'll try and take a pic of how I bunch up Maverick's skin when I get home. FWIW I never had much of a difference in insulin absorption shooting in the scruff vs. along the sides, but perhaps that's an ECID thing.

 

[Heike & BInie]

I think avoiding the muscle would depend on where you were and how thick the skin/fat is over the muscle. I do worry a bit with methos on his thorax because he’s not a fat cat and his skin is very thin. So I try to stay less of an angle. Closer to the shoulder his skin is thicker and looser so I don’t worry there.

I do get what you’re talking about with feeling two layers, I think if you could shoot along the tent line. So to speak, rather than across like these Videos seem to show …i don’t know if what I’m saying makes sense.

I do think if we hit muscle a cat would react but ecid. Maybe just try when petting her to feel with one hand how it feels to slightly lift her skin with the fur and if you can do that without reaction, if you can feel the little hollow tent with a finger. I will look at him later tonight (getting close to shot time now) to see if I could do it with him upright. I don’t like him upright bc I worry he will leak if he runs around right after so I try to get him when he’s down

Thank you so much Colleen! Seems I should really change my angle to avoid any problems with the muscle. But being a bit chubby is a protection for Binie. Please don't change anything tonight and don't take any risks. Cecile wrote, that she can do this with Bella standing upright. So I think it works. We'll see, if I can do it with Binie too.... Please give a nose kiss to sweet Methos! I want to thank him for the helpful picture too. Such a handsome boy!

 

[Heike & BInie]

I was just teasing you, Heike. Don’t be upset!!

I think it’s great you are so thorough and want you to ask all the questions to get exactly what you need!

Funny that she pulled her snack out of the feeder. I guess that’s ok. At least she knows there was a snack in there and if she wants it badly enough she will eat it.
Cats….

Keep trying! Maybe one day we can outsmart Binie (probably not though)

Please never stop teasing me! You are right, if she really wants the snack, she will find a way to make it happen. In a German group a found a woman who makes pottery bowls for the catmate. They say like this it is a little bit higher. I am not 100 % sure if this really works so I will give Binie some more time.

 

[Heike & BInie]

I'll try and take a pic of how I bunch up Maverick's skin when I get home. FWIW I never had much of a difference in insulin absorption shooting in the scruff vs. along the sides, but perhaps that's an ECID thing.

Thank you so much Christie!

 

[cecile & bella]

I used Staci's picture (kind of looks like Bella used to!), in blue is where I shoot usually

And here is my video. She was very happy to get a snack and did not mind being stung at all. She is such a loud eater!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0WaSvANjEMs

 

[Staci & Ivy]

I used Staci's picture (kind of looks like Bella used to!), in blue is where I shoot usually
View attachment 71677
And here is my video. She was very happy to get a snack and did not mind being stung at all. She is such a loud eater!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0WaSvANjEMs

That’s awesome, Cecile! Great video

 

[Heike & BInie]

I used Staci's picture (kind of looks like Bella used to!), in blue is where I shoot usually
View attachment 71677
And here is my video. She was very happy to get a snack and did not mind being stung at all. She is such a loud eater!
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/0WaSvANjEMs

Thank you so, so much Cecile! That is really a great and very helpful video!!! You really see and know all the insulin gets in. So cool. I will try to get Binie used to that grip before I try it with a syringe.

And I love how enthusiastic Bella is about her food!!! She is really a gourmet!

 

[SmallestSparrow]

I tried with Methos tonight and had two problems. When he’s standing the skins feels tighter along his throrax and spine (maybe from standing idk cat anatomy well but will review it) —I wonder if it’s easier for those who shoot standing bc they use the scruff or near it, where skin is more loose and is thicker so less likely to shoot through. I shot Erik standing (decades ago) but it was the scruff.

methos is also difficult standing for two more reasons that might not apply to sweet Binie: he stands still standing only to eat other wise he is on the move. He doesn’t like me trying to impede his movement if he’s not eating, and doesn’t cooperate with anything if he is eating (ear pokes, shots) because he feels I’m trying to interfere with his meal. He’s very uncooperative if I try while eating. Finally, he gets his sub q fluids where many of you seem to be shooting. He does not like getting sub q. He holds still for it only because I have a death grip on him at all times with one hand or the other. So when I started trying to ruffle his fur while he was standing I think he figured I was going to give him fluids

 

[SmallestSparrow]

. If her mouth is not busy, she uses it to bite me.

Boys are easier…

 

[SmallestSparrow]

Re sarcomas. The reason I was told to avoid the scruff was slow and/or irregular adsorption of insulin. In addition I was told repeatedly injecting the same area would cause scarring. I wasn’t warned of sarcoma. I thought the risk of sarcoma was related to vaccines, I had t heard of it with insulin. If that’s the case then you’d avoid thr thorax as well. Because you can’t amputate a scruff or the thorax. The issue over vaccines (I think…not a vet ) is to stop giving vaccines centrally and use a distal limb so if a sarcoma does develop amputation with clear margins is possible. Fwiw.​

 

[Madeline528]

Last post: https://www.felinediabetes.com/FDMB/threads/12-2-binie-amps-405-3-427-6-410-fur-shot-again.296224/

Good evening,

first of all thank so much for your great adivce and you help to avoid fur shots! I am so grateful for all the shared adivce and I picked out quite some inspirations already.
@Staci & Ivy @cecile & bella @bluesunshine @Deb and Tiger @SmallestSparrow @Christie & Maverick @Karen and Chispa @Heather82372 !

Seems like the roll method is the one which makes it most likely not to do fur shots but some get very good results by using the tent method too. I am a bit hesitant to use the roll method because of Binies reaction to rolling her fur but I hate being so insecure with the tent method and it seems there are hacks to make it work.

I read that many of you are injecting in the scruff and I read that on some US websites too. That was a surprise for me, as in Germany they tell you a million times not to inject in the scruff or the shoulder. Seems there are different medical opinions on that? I was told to inject in the area, where you would place a saddle (funny picture). Somehow I can imagine that scruff might be easier but of course I am hesitant after all the warning I found on German websites. Here is a picture, I found:

I find that a bit confusing. Do you have more information, why scruff is safe? In Germany they say it should be avoided because of the risk to develop sarcoma on the injection site and you can't do surgery on the scruff.

There is something else which makes me insecure. I found a picture in the internet, that you should make sure to only inject UNDER the skin and not to deep, because you could inject into the muscle. I don't find that picture any more but I made a drawing below.

View attachment 71672


If I make the fold, I can feel there are two different layers like in the drawing. If I take only the top layer, the fold is very thin and it is more likely the needle is going through the tent and I do a fur shot. If I take a bigger fold, I think there is the tissue below involved which according to this picture should be avoided. I asked my vet about it and she said that I will not manage to hit a muscle with a 8 mm needle, so it should be safe. I hope she is true. Besides that I am not injecting close to the body but like Heather and Christie in a 45 to 60 degree angle. I feel if I would do it parallel to the body the risk of producing a fur shot would be bigger.

And I never wondered, if I should use a longer needle. I got 8 mm from the vet and somehow I feel that reduces the risk to go through the fold. Binies fur might be a little bit longer than other European short hair cats but I feel that does not make such a big difference. Would a longer needle be helpful?

If you have any ideas. what I do wrong with the tent method or would I can do better, I would be really grateful.

@Heather82372: Somehow it is counterintuitive to me, that it is harder to make folds with a chunky cat. I sometimes have to inject myself heparin and I feel it is so much easier with some fat tissue involved.

I found a German video about the roll method (they call it tent method there) which I find quite helpful. Maybe @SmallestSparrow or anyone else is interested. Thanks to @Karen and Chispa for sharing the other great video!

Here is the German one, the tone is not needed:

Besides my technical troubles I was surprised about her cycles last night and today. After the furshot yesterday morning she went down very fast in the pm cycle. The libre showed errors many times because she was falling so quickly. She reached a higher blue and went up again quickly. Today it looked like a bounce cycle, maybe because she was falling so quickly? Tonight there seems to be some action as well, she already sees yellow at +2, which promises a quite active cycle.

Hope everyone has a nice Tuesday and all the sweet cats are fine!

Hi Heike.
I don't do Butch's insulin injections because of my limited hand function. What I was taught I share with the people I have to do his injections. They use the tent method between the shoulder blades (in the location that Staci posted of the cat picture), and I also use an 8mm length needle.
Wishing you a nice evening and safe surf, Binie!

 

[Heike & BInie]

Hi Heike.
I don't do Butch's insulin injections because of my limited hand function. What I was taught I share with the people I have to do his injections. They use the tent method between the shoulder blades (in the location that Staci posted of the cat picture), and I also use an 8mm length needle.
Wishing you a nice evening and safe surf, Binie!

Thank you so much Madeline! I am happy the tent method does seem to work for you and Butch. That helps me feel more confident as long as it takes me to learn the alternatives. I guess finding people to inject Butch must be complicating sometimes. You are really doing such a great job for his health to manage this factor besides all the other stuff! Hope you have a nice day!

 

[Heike & BInie]

Re sarcomas. The reason I was told to avoid the scruff was slow and/or irregular adsorption of insulin. In addition I was told repeatedly injecting the same area would cause scarring. I wasn’t warned of sarcoma. I thought the risk of sarcoma was related to vaccines, I had t heard of it with insulin. If that’s the case then you’d avoid thr thorax as well. Because you can’t amputate a scruff or the thorax. The issue over vaccines (I think…not a vet ) is to stop giving vaccines centrally and use a distal limb so if a sarcoma does develop amputation with clear margins is possible. Fwiw.​

Thank you so much for the explanation Colleen! I felt there is something strange about the rigidity they tell this and it makes perfectly sense to me what you say. I will ask my vet about it again. I feel sometimes someone makes a statement and lots of people adapt it without proof.

 

[Heike & BInie]

Boys are easier…

Hhhhhh....I think like always you can not generalize. We have some very sweet and cooperative girls in the group.

 

[Heike & BInie]

I tried with Methos tonight and had two problems. When he’s standing the skins feels tighter along his throrax and spine (maybe from standing idk cat anatomy well but will review it) —I wonder if it’s easier for those who shoot standing bc they use the scruff or near it, where skin is more loose and is thicker so less likely to shoot through. I shot Erik standing (decades ago) but it was the scruff.

methos is also difficult standing for two more reasons that might not apply to sweet Binie: he stands still standing only to eat other wise he is on the move. He doesn’t like me trying to impede his movement if he’s not eating, and doesn’t cooperate with anything if he is eating (ear pokes, shots) because he feels I’m trying to interfere with his meal. He’s very uncooperative if I try while eating. Finally, he gets his sub q fluids where many of you seem to be shooting. He does not like getting sub q. He holds still for it only because I have a death grip on him at all times with one hand or the other. So when I started trying to ruffle his fur while he was standing I think he figured I was going to give him fluids

Hi Staci, thank you for this great report! I hope shooting worked well and you did not risk anything for this experiment. Interesting the skin feels tighter, if he is standing. I will try with Binie today (without injecting). I would love to shoot while she is lying on the side. It might would work if I had someone to hole a churru in front of her face but there is no one. So I have to keep on trying....

Seems like Methos and you have a routine which works well. I am sorry he doesn't like getting the fluids. I think I wouldn't manage to do this with Binie. I can not hold her. If she doesn't want something, she doesn't want.

 

[Heather & Shooter]

I don't do the scruff with Shooter. My first diabetic I did the scruff and he developed scar tissue or something in the area. He also had shots for 9 years so probably not enough area to move around in for all those shots. Shooter prefers the right side to be injected but he's OK with the left too. There's a lot more area to move around in the "saddle" and with 2 saddles versus one scruff area.

I do the tent but when I shoot the 45 degree it's under my thumb and towards his body. It's thick enough that it doesn't go thru but I don't pull up the underneathe super thick area like you talked about. I feel like when I have done this his numbers tend to go up and then come down later. Like it takes longer to get in his bloodstream or something. ?

 

[Heike & BInie]

I don't do the scruff with Shooter. My first diabetic I did the scruff and he developed scar tissue or something in the area. He also had shots for 9 years so probably not enough area to move around in for all those shots. Shooter prefers the right side to be injected but he's OK with the left too. There's a lot more area to move around in the "saddle" and with 2 saddles versus one scruff area.

I do the tent but when I shoot the 45 degree it's under my thumb and towards his body. It's thick enough that it doesn't go thru but I don't pull up the underneathe super thick area like you talked about. I feel like when I have done this his numbers tend to go up and then come down later. Like it takes longer to get in his bloodstream or something. ?

Wow! Thank you Heather, so much experience with diabetic cats! Interesting observation with the thick area. I should have made a note, if it influenced the numbers anyhow. Hope you and Shooter have a great day!

 

[Madeline528]

Thank you so much Madeline! I am happy the tent method does seem to work for you and Butch. That helps me feel more confident as long as it takes me to learn the alternatives. I guess finding people to inject Butch must be complicating sometimes. You are really doing such a great job for his health to manage this factor besides all the other stuff! Hope you have a nice day!

Hi Heike. Thank you so much!
Yes, it does get complicated sometimes. Right now, I have three people who are doing the injections. I always get worried about a fur shot or if they don't show up.
Hope you have a nice day too! safe surfing, Binie!

 

[SmallestSparrow]

When Methos first needed insulin I was a wreck because I was certain I wasn’t doing it right and he’d die because of it. I cried pretty much nonstop for weeks. I asked my cat sitter to come give him some shots so I’d at least know he got a little insulin and maybe it would keep him alive (she couldn’t come often as she works three jobs besides cat sitting). She came three pm shots spread out in a week (I told you her trick already), then because she couldn’t come the next week she arranged for her colleague to come three nights spaced out. First, I so highly recommend this if you ever know someone who has a newly diagnosed pet—-it was such a relief to know that at least three days he’d get at least one shot done right. The first night she gave him a shot was the first time I’d slept in a week. I cried in relief while she did it. So now I share a tip I got watching her colleague.
He didn’t use the fur but instead picked up like most of you by a small pinch. But once the needle went under the skin he released his pinch up and instead placed his finger on the skin over the needle. He said to be certain it was steady but I suspect (since he was younger than my sitter) it was in part at least to be sure the needle wasn’t poking out. At any rate, usually do this also, I let go of his fur placing my finger on the skin and so I know for sure the needle hasn’t poked out the other side. I don’t know if either of these things will help anyone but they seem to work for me. Now I must find wood to knock

 

[SmallestSparrow]

Thank you so much for the explanation Colleen! I felt there is something strange about the rigidity they tell this and it makes perfectly sense to me what you say. I will ask my vet about it again. I feel sometimes someone makes a statement and lots of people adapt it without proof.

Well yes but even if not because of sarcoma they still recommend to avoid the scruff because of scarring and absorption. Which is a shame. Much easier to inject there…

 

[Heike & BInie]

When Methos first needed insulin I was a wreck because I was certain I wasn’t doing it right and he’d die because of it. I cried pretty much nonstop for weeks. I asked my cat sitter to come give him some shots so I’d at least know he got a little insulin and maybe it would keep him alive (she couldn’t come often as she works three jobs besides cat sitting). She came three pm shots spread out in a week (I told you her trick already), then because she couldn’t come the next week she arranged for her colleague to come three nights spaced out. First, I so highly recommend this if you ever know someone who has a newly diagnosed pet—-it was such a relief to know that at least three days he’d get at least one shot done right. The first night she gave him a shot was the first time I’d slept in a week. I cried in relief while she did it. So now I share a tip I got watching her colleague.
He didn’t use the fur but instead picked up like most of you by a small pinch. But once the needle went under the skin he released his pinch up and instead placed his finger on the skin over the needle. He said to be certain it was steady but I suspect (since he was younger than my sitter) it was in part at least to be sure the needle wasn’t poking out. At any rate, usually do this also, I let go of his fur placing my finger on the skin and so I know for sure the needle hasn’t poked out the other side. I don’t know if either of these things will help anyone but they seem to work for me. Now I must find wood to knock

I was the same. I also thought about hiring this great cat sitter to come even if I was here. Still I am very tense if I shoot and I am always happy if it is over and I was successful. I am not sure if I understood right about how the pet sitter placed his finger but the last shots, I also tried to take my time and to feel the skin around the fold if the needel is sticking out. Hope one day I manage without stress.... Thank you so much for sharing your experience! I learn a lot and it makes me feel less alone.

 

[SmallestSparrow]

I was the same. I also thought about hiring this great cat sitter to come even if I was here. Still I am very tense if I shoot and I am always happy if it is over and I was successful. I am not sure if I understood right about how the pet sitter placed his finger but the last shots, I also tried to take my time and to feel the skin around the fold if the needel is sticking out. Hope one day I manage without stress.... Thank you so much for sharing your experience! I learn a lot and it makes me feel less alone.

I know, right, as test/shoot time approaches I’m like

then once it is over and I have 12 hr before the next it’s


or sometimes

 

[Heike & BInie]

I know, right, as test/shoot time approaches I’m like

then once it is over and I have 12 hr before the next it’s


or sometimes

Hhhhhh....very good explanation. I can so much relate....